OT: My apologies

[Montunoman 2]

My thread  with the silly hypothetical question about being in a romantic relationship with Yuan Wang has upset some people, and for that I apologize. The thread was not really meant to be specifically about Yuan Wang, just if you could be in a relationship with a pianist (any gender)  more skilled, talented, and successful  than yourself. I just used Yuan Wang as an example because many people and admire both her skills and appearance,  and she is successful. The person in the hypothetical relationship could have been anyone, any gender or orientation. I didn't mean to single out Asian women, objectify women,  specifically Yuan Wang, or to exclude any members on this forum who part of the LGBTQ community 

 

Eric, our young Canadian friend, wrote a reply that told me I had an potentially interesting topic, but I should consider rephrasing my question. At first I was going to write a somewhat defensive response, but I slept on it, and when I woke up, I  completely saw his point.  It's kind of funny that probably the youngest member on this forum had the one the most thoughtful and mature replies. 

 

I am much older than Eric, born and raised in the Latino culture, where male chauvinist attitudes prevailed,  and  I have tried to break from those old attitudes. I am grateful to  have a place to hang out, exchange ideas with fellow keyboardist, it doesn't matter to me anyone's gender, orientation, political views..... I'm here share and grow with other keyboardist, and my apologies for offending anyone. PEACE and GODWILL to ALL. 

[GRollins]

I'm behind on this, it seems.

 

I, for one, was not offended. I posted some loosely connected thoughts that basically invited women to comment on men's looks if they felt they were attractive, then realized that the same should apply to those of alternate sexual orientations and added that. Fair for all concerned, or so I thought.

 

What transpired afterwards, I do not know. I'm assuming that it's one of those things where certain people feel obliged to be mad at everyone, every day, about everything, but that's only guesswork on my part. The thread appears to have gone away, so forensics are impossible. We've had a murder, but there is no body for the coroner to examine.

 

Grey

[SMcD]

I admire people who can look inward, own up to their mistakes, and try to learn from them. Props to you for setting the example, Montunoman.

 

I'll take responsibility for the initial pot-stir. Something I've lamented both on and off the internet is that a lot of music scenes seem to be "boys clubs" - not in the sense of overt sexism/chauvinism, but in the sense that most instrumentalists I encounter (vocalists, for whatever reason, seem to be an exception) are cis dudes. I'd love to see more players of more identities, and I think it's good for us cis dudes to make sure we're giving them the same treatment and respect we give members of our own "club". I wish I'd found a way to make that point without lighting the fuse, but nuance on the internet is an elusive thing.

 

In any case, as keyboardists, I figure we're naturally predisposed to being more enlightened than our string-plucking and drum-beating peers.  

 

As a final thought: Eric, are you younger than me?! 😅

[MathOfInsects]

5 minutes ago, GRollins said:

I'm behind on this, it seems.

 

I, for one, was not offended. I posted some loosely connected thoughts that basically invited women to comment on men's looks if they felt they were attractive, then realized that the same should apply to those of alternate sexual orientations and added that. Fair for all concerned, or so I thought.

 

What transpired afterwards, I do not know. I'm assuming that it's one of those things where certain people feel obliged to be mad at everyone, every day, about everything, but that's only guesswork on my part. The thread appears to have gone away, so forensics are impossible. We've had a murder, but there is no body for the coroner to examine.

 

Grey

There were a series of posts that said, among other things, that if she was going to choose to dress that provocatively, she was going to have to expect that males would get "aroused" because of it. The posts in question may even have been slightly more specific than that.

I tagged our esteemed moderator and suggested that was the point the that thread had run its course. We want women to feel as comfortable posting here as us old-ass dudes are. The "if she dresses like that she has it coming" defense hasn't exactly had a glorious past. 

[MathOfInsects]

29 minutes ago, SMcD said:

I wish I'd found a way to make that point without lighting the fuse...

I lit it too, either on that thread or the other one. I felt bad and deleted a couple minutes later. Pure ignorance on my part. I thought I was doing one thing but realized I was really feeding into another.

[surfergirl]

This will be my parting shot. As a Filipina I let my own bias overcome common sense and over reacted, something I have a tendency to do. I'm dealing with my half sister who is here in Hawaii because she is afraid to return to school in California. This may have also added to my stress. Thank you for your apology and I hope you will except mine.

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, surfergirl said:

This will be my parting shot. As a Filipina I let my own bias overcome common sense and over reacted, something I have a tendency to do. I'm dealing with my half sister who is here in Hawaii because she is afraid to return to school in California. This may have also added to my stress. Thank you for your apology and I hope you will except mine.

Please make it your opening salvo instead of a parting shot? Hang around, we need your voice here.

And if your post was the one about "why Asian," I thought it was necessary and valuable. 

[GRollins]

Hmmm...

 

I...well...hmmm...

 

Okay, I can see that things must have gotten a little crazy since I last saw the thread. At this point, we have witnesses who heard a shot, so at least we have some indication as to what happened to the body.

 

For the record, I assume that someone who dresses "provocatively" can expect to be looked at, but there's a line in the sand between looking and unwelcome actions. Don't go there.

 

I'm off to bake bread (parmesan  bread from Bernard Clayton's book--a new recipe for me) for Valentines. I'll look in again while the dough is rising and see what else is going on.

 

Grey

[CyberGene]

36 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

There were a series of posts that said, among other things, that if she was going to choose to dress that provocatively, she was going to have to expect that males would get "aroused" because of it.

I said it but you keep on exaggerating it and twisting what I actually said. When you first misquoted me you actually used the word "rape" which couldn't have been farther from what I said and meant. What I said is that she has been consistently choosing outfits that are undeniably provocative (in a sexually explicit way). And since it's not an isolated case but is consistent and is a conscious choice she made, she then must certainly be aware of the effect this attire may cause to men since we're all driven by biology after all and some men can get aroused looking at women who are dressed this way and one should not expect from these men not to get aroused. Hence, she must be aware she's provoking this type of thoughts. And I stand behind these words and wonder what is wrong with them? And BTW, if you keep on quoting me (although you didn't mention my name), I have the right to respond and defend myself. And we go back to square one.

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, CyberGene said:

I said it but you keep on exaggerating it and twisting what I actually said. When you first misquoted me you actually used the word "rape" which couldn't have been farther from what I said and meant. What I said is that she has been consistently choosing outfits that are undeniably provocative (in a sexually explicit way). And since it's not an isolated case but is consistent and is a conscious choice she made, she then must certainly be aware of the effect this attire *may* cause to male since we're all driven by biology after all and *some* man can get aroused looking at women who are dressed this way and one should not expect from these men not to get aroused. Hence, she must be aware she's provoking this type of thoughts. And I stand behind these words and wonder what is wrong in them? And BTW, if you keep on quoting me (although you didn't mention my name), I have the right to respond and defend myself. And we go back to square one.

I did not use that word. 

I will let the rest of this post speak for itself.

[SMcD]

Never been much of a fan of square one. Squares two and up are where it's at.

Let's all resist the urge to revisit that lesser square.

[CyberGene]

Just now, MathOfInsects said:

I will let the rest of this post speak for itself.

Yes, please. Instead of reporting it and then the entire thread being deleted and you misquoting me in another thread, let other people see what I said. Thanks.

[GRollins]

Oh, and whilst I'm thinking about it, and with the disclaimer that I didn't see everything that transpired...I fail to see that Montunoman 2 has anything to apologize for. If someone starts a thread that later goes off the rails through no fault of their own, that's not to be held against them. It's like apologizing for getting out of bed the day that an alien spaceship crash lands in your backyard. Not your fault...even if it knocked down your neighbor's fence coming down.

 

Maybe something was said that I missed, but the literal OP, as in original post (as opposed to poster), did not strike me as "bad" in any way.

 

But then maybe I'm not the mad-at-everyone-all-the-time sort...

 

Grey

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, CyberGene said:

Yes, please. Instead of reporting it and then the entire thread being deleted and you misquoting me in another thread, let other people see what I said. Thanks.

“Reporting it” is not what gets things deleted, the content is. Our esteemed bB does a very good and careful job of keeping us on track here. This is very squarely outside the scope of this board (though others here on MPN are looser in their boundaries).

[MathOfInsects]

1 minute ago, GRollins said:

Oh, and whilst I'm thinking about it, and with the disclaimer that I didn't see everything that transpired...I fail to see that Montunoman 2 has anything to apologize for. If someone starts a thread that later goes off the rails through no fault of their own, that's not to be held against them. It's like apologizing for getting out of bed the day that an alien spaceship crash lands in your backyard. Not your fault...even if it knocked down your neighbor's fence coming down.

 

Maybe something was said that I missed, but the literal OP, as in original post (as opposed to poster), did not strike me as "bad" in any way.

 

But then maybe I'm not the mad-at-everyone-all-the-time sort...

 

Grey

Indeed. It was an interesting topic, perhaps framed clumsily.

[CyberGene]

1 minute ago, MathOfInsects said:

“Reporting it” is not what gets things deleted, the content is.

Maybe. Or maybe not, since the moderator was summoned and was asked to not allow this type of discussion. We live in times when people prefer to just keep quiet rather than arguing with the PC police. In any case, I will respect the forum rules and if what I said is considered wrong, insulting, unacceptable or against the rules (I don't think so, but I may be wrong), I will be OK with this thread being deleted.

BTW, I have my own piano oriented forum which was created as a spin-off of PianoWorld but allows any topic, no moderation, totally free speech, politics and whatever you decide. It's linked in my profile here. Feel free to move the discussion to that other forum (PianoClack).

[Bif_]

1 hour ago, Montunoman 2 said:

My thread  with the silly hypothetical question ……was if you could be in a relationship with a pianist (any gender)  more skilled, talented, and successful  than yourself. 

 

..... I'm here share and grow with other keyboardist, and my apologies for offending anyone. PEACE and GODWILL to ALL. 

I understood your intentions after reading the first few sentences. I know you meant no harm.

 

You’ve explained and apologized. That’s good enough for me. Be at peace. 

[bill5]

 

6 minutes ago, GRollins said:

Oh, and whilst I'm thinking about it, and with the disclaimer that I didn't see everything that transpired...I fail to see that Montunoman 2 has anything to apologize for. 

He doesn't. To each their own, but I'm not of the train of thought that Snowflakes should cause people to feel a need to walk on eggshells with their passive aggressive nonsense. Our society really needs to put a halt to this politcal correctness gone rampant routine already. I'm glad I'm old enough to remember and experienced a time when people didn't take themselves so seriously or look for an excuse to be offended. It's just sad that those days are long gone. 

[MathOfInsects]

2 minutes ago, bill5 said:

 

He doesn't. To each their own, but I'm not of the train of thought that Snowflakes should cause people to feel a need to walk on eggshells with their passive aggressive nonsense. Our society really needs to put a halt to this politcal correctness gone rampant routine already. I'm glad I'm old enough to remember and experienced a time when people didn't take themselves so seriously or look for an excuse to be offended. It's just sad that those days are long gone. 

You’re certainly entitled to feel this, but this board isn’t the place for it. It’s a big internet out there…
 

@Dave Bryce

[MAJUSCULE]

Wow, I didn't expect to be mentioned! Thank you for the kind words Montunoman. I don't think anyone was waiting for an apology from you, but at the same time, I'm probably not the one to decide that! The Internet can be a clumsy place at times, devoid of much nuance and real dialogue. I think, as you say, we can all benefit from sleeping on things from time to time and remembering how different our various life experiences are and the way that's shaped our individual worldviews. We're all posting to the same place, but we're coming from a lot of different places. And that's before taking into account whatever stress or bad mood someone may be feeling away from the screen, as surfergirl said.

 

I've learned the hard way to exercise restraint in similar spats in the past. I will say that I appreciated Shaun's post and, based on the reactions to it, several other members did too. I may have not gotten my entire point across due to somewhat trying to stay out of it and just being busy away from the forum, but I do want to say that my facepalm emojis were not as much directed at you, Montunoman, as you had already made clear that your hypothetical question could have been rephrased, but rather at the subsequent discussion that had developed. Just a little too many culture war buzzwords getting used by some folks for my taste.

 

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to reflect and re-open the discussion in what was a hopeful manner. Not sure if we'll be able to have this thread survive either but I commend your effort!

 

And Shaun, I thought we were the same age... are we? Hitting the big 3-0 next month.

[SMcD]

Well put all around, Eric.

 

4 minutes ago, MAJUSCULE said:

 

And Shaun, I thought we were the same age... are we? Hitting the big 3-0 next month.

 

By a mere 7 months, I narrowly take the "youngest forum member" record. 😜 

[timwat]

1 hour ago, Montunoman 2 said:

My thread  with the silly hypothetical question about being in a romantic relationship with Yuan Wang has upset some people, and for that I apologize.

Thanks, and no need, brother.

 

Most of us have posted a few silly, OT threads from time to time - it helps inject some levity and color into what can sometime seems like the same topics all of the time. 

 

And like most of our threads, they take on a life of their own outside of the control and intent of the original post. And I think it was Jenny who noted the posts reveal more about the posting member than Yuja Wang. Or the person who started the thread, I might add.

 

Peace and goodwill be with you too, Montunoman.

[analogika]

I really don't care what you do with your yuge wang, so I just ignored that thread like a good netizen. 

 

Sorry to read that it got out of hand. 

 

 

 

 

…heh.

[MathOfInsects]

8 minutes ago, SMcD said:

By a mere 7 months, I narrowly take the "youngest forum member" record. 😜 

You guys are only young compared to the dinosaurs here. You’re both fully baked. Tell a friend. We need young blood here. Why DO we skew so old—is it that the whole “discussion board” culture is a holdover from Web .01?

[MAJUSCULE]

I joined when I was in high school, but for whatever reason, forums like this don't seem to attract people our age and younger as much as, say, Reddit. I've definitely recommended joining to both peers and students in the past, since I've honestly learned so much here, whether about music or life in general, but I don't think I've ever actually converted someone to membership. I mean, Philip's Listening thread alone has introduced me to so many artists and influenced so much of my development, it's a little peculiar to me that no one else in my offline life has dipped in ever.

[SMcD]

5 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

You guys are only young compared to the dinosaurs here. You’re both fully baked. Tell a friend. We need young blood here. Why DO we skew so old—is it that the whole “discussion board” culture is a holdover from Web .01?

 

It must be that. I think Eric and I both started posting here in our mid-teens. That would've been around 2007-2009, when Twitter was in its infancy. I believe that was the tail end of the internet's "forum era" - after that, most online discussion started centralizing on the big social media platforms.

 

And yes, I suppose we're only relatively young. The thing about your late 20's is that you're new to being old. I only recently started being out of touch with the kids these days. I know I'll get used to it.  

[pinkfloydcramer]

I can see how the OP would feel awkward from all this drama arising from his harmless thread, but he has nothing to apologize for. Montunoman2 has always struck me as being the consummate gentleman. 

 

So the new rule is, no remarks on an artist's perceived physical attractiveness? Poor DB.

[CyberGene]

The whole controversy in that other thread started with something entirely different, not sure why we're still focused on miss Wang. It started with a member expressing disappointment about how threads like that one get much more attention than threads about nice looking male pianists. And that member explained it with the fact the majority of the members here are straight men. I argued and asked what the expectation is: to have more female and gay members? Or to expect from that vast male majority to show more interest in male pianists? I think it ignited some rather heated comments and it's sad it has been closed and now the entire controversy is being summed by one isolated comment I made about Yuja Wang certainly being aware of some reactions she provokes with her outfit. And that she certainly doesn't care and being one of the best classical pianists of all time can do whatever she wants, and she may actually enjoy being liked by men.

[Stokely]

I think it would have been a worthy topic to say "Could you have a relationship with a person who is a much better player than you?"  Making it specifically about one person is what I personally felt made it a bit...off.  But no harm no foul, hopefully nobody got inspired to stalk on social media based on the post  

This also is a "serious" forum about playing music, and the person in question is a serious musician, so it's maybe a bit different than a random forum where people might ask "do you think X is hot" etc.   Not sure.

[MathOfInsects]

2 minutes ago, SMcD said:

 

It must be that. I think Eric and I both started posting here in our mid-teens. That would've been around 2007-2009, when Twitter was in its infancy. I believe that was the tail end of the internet's "forum era" - after that, most online discussion started centralizing on the big social media platforms.

 

And yes, I suppose we're only relatively young. The thing about your late 20's is that you're new to being old. I only recently started being out of touch with the kids these days. I know I'll get used to it.  

I think the trick is to remember the difference between aging and getting old.

Aging is what happens as time goes on.

 

Getting old is what happens when you get stuck in a certain time along the way.