Nord Stage 4 Announced

[Motif88]

The PianoManChuck review is live. He spends more time than most on the keyboard action which interests me most due to lack of being able to play one prior to purchase without an airline ticket.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCZ0_yr7ly0

 

 

[Doerfler]

embedded video for those who don't like to click on hyperlinks

 

 

[Motif88]

Thank you...can't seem to get the imbedded post when using my iPad Pro.

[Stokely]

After really diving into my NS3, I can definitely see where having more than two synths/sampled instruments on one patch would be handy.  I'm getting around the limitation, it's certainly not a showstopper, but it's a bit different than programming my Modx where I can just plop on another "Part" if I need a split or layer.   That said, it forces me to do some creative programming to make the sounds more flexible and controllable, and less different sounds means easier patch leveling so there is a plus side   Or I just find myself popping an electric grand in there as a layer, works very well for 80s stuff!

[TJ Cornish]

I am not a Nord guy. I have had two beefs historically: 1. the price relative to other offerings, and 2. The church “me too” effect I have observed, where in some circles everybody has to have the red thing, but then they either never move it from a piano patch, or they just plug it into MainSage and use it as a $6000 MIDI controller. If it was $2500, I wouldn’t have either of those beefs. I have played the Korg OASYS/Kronos and Roland Fantom products since 2005, with a Hammond XK5 on top. I’m not expecting anyone to care about my opinion, but this is my personal history, for what it’s worth.

 

It was interesting reading through this thread as I haven’t kept up on the Nord progression. A few things struck me, both in positive and negative directions.

 

Positives:

• I will say that with the NS4 updates (third synth layer and patch saving), I could now probably use this board and get by for a lot of my music.
• The triple sensor is pretty compelling. It’s always challenging to navigate a single action working for multiple different instruments, and this seems to be a material step in a positive direction.
• The optical pedal seems great, and I like the idea of being able to use the left and center pedals for non-piano things.
• There seem to be workable ways to save “setups” for a set list.
• I appreciate the desire to keep the instrument as shallow as possible so folks can find things.
• The Nord model of a few good sounds being better than 20,000 mediocre sounds makes a lot of sense.

 

Negatives:

• I think the biggest surprise for me was the list of things I had no idea that previous models couldn’t do like saving effects as part of a sound, that after 18 years are now finally “fixed”.
• Things already covered by others in this thread like not supporting arbitrary split points
• It seems to me that Nord is now chasing the “general purpose ROMpler” market with the increased focus on synth, and with that model, they seem to be crashing into challenges of getting enough complexity to do all of the synth things on the control surface. I kept saying to myself while watching demo videos “Surely just putting some of this stuff in a well-designed menu on a big screen is easier/better than 15 button presses and stateless knobs.”
• The new synth stuff is nice, but there are some pretty big holes - the primary one that would prevent me from using this without a computer is the lack of a timing engine. Arpeggios synced only to internal time with no ability to send a click track to the band (a core feature for me) means I have to keep re-tapping, and a lot of synth stuff becomes untenable if I’m not the source of band time. Is this solvable with external stuff? Yes, but if you need a computer anyway, it sort of works against the whole “menus are evil” mindset. Could Nord find a way to do some of this in a future board without losing the special sauce? That will be interesting.

 

I last had hands on a Nord Stage 2 and saying I didn’t love it was an understatement. I would like to get some time on a current-gen Nord (I’m legitimately interested in seeing what the Nord Grand is like). Maybe the sounds could win me over and I could learn to have a PC-based workflow for the missing things from the Nord, but that would be a big transition.

 

My current main bottom board is a Fantom 7. There are a few holes in this board as well: saying the sequencer is ‘incomplete’ would be overly kind, and there are some really odd limitations like no patch remain on VPiano patches even if you move from one scene to another with the same VPIano, and the LFO not really syncing to internal clock.

 

These limitations aside, as I was watching Nord videos, I kept thinking about how nice the Fantom architecture is - 16 identical zones (VPiano and Organ being locked to zones 1 and 2 respectively but having the same downstream architecture), fully allocated effects chains so every patch sounds the same whether played alone or in “combi/performance” mode, very good front panel controls including pretty much the same knobs that the Nord has, and a price that’s 33% less than the Nord.

 

Competition is good.

[Mr -G-]

1 hour ago, TJ Cornish said:

Negatives:

• I think the biggest surprise for me was the list of things I had no idea that previous models couldn’t do like saving effects as part of a sound, that after 18 years are now finally “fixed”.

Just a comment, not exactly sure what you meant by "a part of a sound" here, but the effects settings have been always been saved as part of a "program" (e.g. in the NS2 it can consist of several engines: 2 organs, 2 pianos, 2 synths) and you could assign effects to those, although some of those exclusively to one engine or another in each of the two slots available per program) . What it is new in the NS4 is that different sound engines can have their individual effects.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Mr -G- said:

Just a comment, not exactly sure what you meant by "a part of a sound" here, but the effects settings have been always been saved as part of a "program" (e.g. in the NS2 it can consist of several engines: 2 organs, 2 pianos, 2 synths) and you could assign effects to those, although some of those exclusively to one engine or another in each of the two slots available per program) . What it is new in the NS4 is that different sound engines can have their individual effects.

It's more than that. What Nord calls a Program is actually a combination of up to 6 (internal) sounds. It's equivalent to what Korg would call a Combi, Yamaha would call a Performance or Live Set, Kurzweil would call a Multi or Setup, etc. The key difference being referred to here is that, on the Nord, prior to the NS4, those internal sounds that you're combining couldn't have their own effect settings attached to them, the effects were only assignable at the combination-level. So for example, on most boards, you can create a Rhodes sound that has the effects you want on it, and you can bring that Rhodes-with-effects into any future sound combination in which you'd like to use it (subject to not running out of effects resources). On the earlier versions of the Nord Stage, if you wanted to use your favorite Rhodes-with-effects again, you had to copy it from some other combination in which you had previously used it (by copying the entire slot/panel of up to 3 sounds that included that Rhodes sound, and pasting that sound set into your new combination). Re-using favorite "component pieces" of your sound combinations was awkward and limited.

[TJ Cornish]

Thanks Scott - that was what I poorly explained.

 

FWIW I am rooting for Nord and the other little guys like Kurzweil, and I’m glad their products seem to be perfect for their user base. So far, I just don’t think the Nord is for me.

[MathOfInsects]

I prefer the knobs to menu-diving on a screen, but agree that in 2023 a flagship board and maybe all boards should have large, data-rich, color touchscreens. Or maybe just highly functional apps, since we all own touchscreens of our own.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

I prefer the knobs to menu-diving on a screen, but agree that in 2023 a flagship board and maybe all boards should have large, data-rich, color touchscreens. Or maybe just highly functional apps, since we all own touchscreens of our own.

Be nice if they'd all put connection for large external monitor and option to be mirror of board screen or be 2nd monitor to display other info. 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

Or maybe just highly functional apps, since we all own touchscreens of our own.

 

While I think iPad integration is great, I also wouldn't want to have to overly rely on it. Who knows how many years you'll get out of an app, before the app gets killed (whether due to an OS update or otherwise)? I could hope to get more years out of a keyboard than the number of years Roland, Yamaha, or whoever may keep an app available and updated.

 

Roland had this app for BK3/BK5/B7m/BK9... BK3 is still an available product, but you haven't been able to get the app for years...

 

https://appadvice.com/app/lyrics-viewer/570199812

[MathOfInsects]

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

While I think iPad integration is great, I also wouldn't want to have to overly rely on it. Who knows how many years you'll get out of an app, before the app gets killed (whether due to an OS update or otherwise)? I could hope to get more years out of a keyboard than the number of years Roland, Yamaha, or whoever may keep an app available and updated.

 

Roland had this app for BK3/BK5/B7m/BK9... BK3 is still an available product, but you haven't been able to get the app for years...

 

https://appadvice.com/app/lyrics-viewer/570199812

For sure, but that was a long time ago. In 2023, IMO the only question should be whether the screen is provided in every board, or whether they hand that over to your own screen. I'm guessing it's cheaper to design and maintain an app than put a good screen in boards. The sound guys practically would not buy a new system now, at almost any level of quality, if it didn't have app control. We need to catch up. 

[Nathanael_I]

I demoed and purchased a Stage 4 yesterday, which surprised me a little.  I've long been a laptop guy and a proponent of the infinite capabilities of a modern laptop over a relatively fixed keyboard.  And the Nords are more fixed than most for all the reasons listed in this thread already.  What changed? 

 

I need to have a piano-oriented board, but with synth and organ.  I may MIDI up my OB-6 desktop.  But I wanted a simpler, playing-oriented surface and direct control.  I've had the Nord Grand for years and it is great - it just doesn't cover all the bases I presently need.  I did not get on with the Fatar action in the Stage 3.

 

The Stage 4's triple sensor action is quite nice, however.  In my opinion, it is a significant improvement over the Stage 3.  The control layout puts enough on hand to get most anything done quickly.  It sounds great and will sound great through a PA system.  The Wave synth engine is quite capable, and plenty for what I need.  I may add a pedal to get the shimmer/granular type sounds that are currently on a lot of tracks.   

 

I thought about buying a compact and using it over the Grand, but one keyboard is fine for what I'm doing right now, and this one does everything I need. So I made a vote for simplicity.  

[Nathanael_I]

Dave,

 

I have not played a NP5. I suspect it’s close or identical to NP5.  It’s not the Kawai action in the NG. The key surface is different. NG has the ivory touch material.  The Stage 4 is a lighter action feel than my acoustic RX-7.  It is graded. But the heaviest is about what my piano is an octave under middle-C. 
 

the finger-ear connection is there on the Stage4 and the pianos are expressive to play. The triple sensor probably afforded them a way to refine velocity curves. I’m not doing straight ahead jazz, so the utmost similarity isn’t as important. I think it’s an excellent compromise for a piano-oriented player. Hammond is a texture for me, not something I play idiomatically, so the 88 leans my direction in the way that suits me. The proper faders are nice for the organ. 
 

This is the first time I’ve played a Fatar-actioned Nord and didn’t notice the action in a “I don’t prefer this way’.  I just played and kept playing, and said, “Yep, that’ll do!”   
 

it’s definitely better than the action in the Doepfer keyboard built into my desk.  That’s the “standard two sensor, I’ve avoided it action”.  But it’s mainly for entering notes into Dorico, not recording parts. So I accept it. The ergonomics of not fighting a keyboard and having desk flush with keys won. 
 

it’s flaws are well known from this thread. It’s still a wonderful device for doing what it does. For coming into the Stage experience, the things changed and upgraded from the Stage3 were important. 

[ImproKeys]

Today I spent almost an hour playing the NS4 and comparing the compact to the HA. They were stacked on a two tier stand. 
I was surprised how great the action on the compact was. I wanted to ditch my idea of getting a compact for playing a mix of piano, ep, organ. But I constantly switched the boards and played piano from the softest ballad to uptime swing or funk licks. Yes, there is a difference, but to me it is really small. the compact is really great for my style of playing. I was classically trained but spent the last years mainly gigging with a NS 2 76HA and a Crumar Mojo. 
Might be the board for me, aiming at a light weight, great playability and sounds. 

[Macsaint777]

Just completed my own sampled pads library for the Nord Stage 4/3. I love this board! I’ve had mine since May and it’s been rock solid, and feels way better than the Stage 3 (I have the Stage 4 compact). 

[kanefsky]

48 minutes ago, Macsaint777 said:

Just completed my own sampled pads library for the Nord Stage 4/3. I love this board! I’ve had mine since May and it’s been rock solid, and feels way better than the Stage 3 (I have the Stage 4 compact). 

 

More specifically, how would you compare the Stage 4 Compact action to the Stage 3 Compact, or to the Hammond XK-4 that you have?  I had the Stage 3 Compact briefly but I returned it mostly because the action was really springy.

 

Besides the action, the complexity of all the sounds and controls was a bit overwhelming for me at my skill level.  Normally the more knobs the better I like something, but one thing that always bugs me with physical keyboards (as opposed to VSTs) is that the minute you select a preset it becomes much harder to figure out what the positions of all the knobs are.  It's nice when at least the keyboard has a big "manual" button that guarantees that the knobs all match the sound you're getting.

 

[Macsaint777]

9 minutes ago, kanefsky said:

 

More specifically, how would you compare the Stage 4 Compact action to the Stage 3 Compact, or to the Hammond XK-4 that you have?  I had the Stage 3 Compact briefly but I returned it mostly because the action was really springy.

 

Besides the action, the complexity of all the sounds and controls was a bit overwhelming for me at my skill level.  Normally the more knobs the better I like something, but one thing that always bugs me with physical keyboards (as opposed to VSTs) is that the minute you select a preset it becomes much harder to figure out what the positions of all the knobs are.  It's nice when at least the keyboard has a big "manual" button that guarantees that the knobs all match the sound you're getting.

 

So, the same action is in all three boards, but the XK4 (Which Sweetwater is replacing for me) definitely bottoms out harder. I expect this is due to the lack of aftertouch strip in the Hammond. The feel of the keys, is the same for the Stage 3 compact, and Stage 4 compact, but the addition of the third sensor in the new Stage 4 line, is a massive improvement. I can understand where you are coming from in terms of the controls, but I don't find that to be in any way a hinderance to using the board live. As a side note, the Hammond appears to have longer keys because they are set back much further on the Nords, but it is actually the same physical keys on both...the Hammond is much more of a cream color, while The Nord I would describe as a darker off white.  When I had the Stage 3 compact, I could play piano on it, but nothing very complex or nuanced. With the Stage 4... WOW. What a difference. There really isn't anything I can play on my YC88 (by MIDI board for the Stage 4) that I can't play on the Stage 4 compact. That was certainly not the case before. 

[kanefsky]

17 minutes ago, Macsaint777 said:

So, the same action is in all three boards, but the XK4 (Which Sweetwater is replacing for me) definitely bottoms out harder. I expect this is due to the lack of aftertouch strip in the Hammond. The feel of the keys, is the same for the Stage 3 compact, and Stage 4 compact, but the addition of the third sensor in the new Stage 4 line, is a massive improvement.

 

Interesting.  I've never had them side-by-side, and in fact it was at least a few months between returning the Stage 3 Compact and buying the XK-4, but I remember the Stage 3 having much springier keys and being much harder to play.

 

Even if they're nominally the same action, it seems like Fatar offers a lot of customization options such as the weight of the springs, the presence or lack of aftertouch strip, and even the color of the keys so it doesn't mean that the actions will actually feel similar.

 

I'm sure with enough skill and experience all the capabilities of the Stage would be welcome, but (to use an airplane analogy like in the other thread  ) you almost always learn to fly in something like a Cessna (or maybe a Cirrus if you're lucky) before you jump into a 777.

 

 

[David Emm]

I think Nord has seriously broken through the clouds with this one, because its a real beauty, but of course, it commands a king's ransom. Never mind a serious road case; how about a *bodyguard* for it? I could almost go for a new thread on how people view (and handle) a $5K +/- instrument. Serious pros have insurance and riders to cover them, but how about a mere "normal" citizen like most of us? Is divorce on the horizon once you spend so much on gear, its spilling into two other rooms? 

 

I'll always feel piano-centric, so the Nord would be my Phantom's organ, center stage with ancillary pieces arrayed around & above it. A lot of gear becomes superfluous when most of the musical world is in one tidy box. They addressed their synth problem beautifully, too. Drool!    

[kanefsky]

3 minutes ago, David Emm said:

I think Nord has seriously broken through the clouds with this one, because its a real beauty, but of course, it commands a king's ransom. Never mind a serious road case; how about a *bodyguard* for it? I could almost go for a new thread on how people view (and handle) a $5K +/- instrument.

 

People spend about 10x that much on their cars on average, and they hurtle them at high speed within inches of each of each other on a daily basis, then leave them completely unguarded and exposed to the elements in random locations for many hours or days at a time 

 

[CHarrell]

1 minute ago, kanefsky said:

 

People spend about 10x that much on their cars on average, and they hurtle them at high speed within inches of each of each other on a daily basis, then leave them completely unguarded and exposed to the elements in random locations for many hours or days at a time 

 

 

Wait, are you saying....that's not what you do with your keyboards?

[Nathanael_I]

7 minutes ago, David Emm said:

I think Nord has seriously broken through the clouds with this one, because its a real beauty, but of course, it commands a king's ransom. Never mind a serious road case; how about a *bodyguard* for it? I could almost go for a new thread on how people view (and handle) a $5K +/- instrument. Serious pros have insurance and riders to cover them, but how about a mere "normal" citizen like most of us? Is divorce on the horizon once you spend so much on gear, its spilling into two other rooms? 

 

I'll always feel piano-centric, so the Nord would be my Phantom's organ, center stage with ancillary pieces arrayed around & above it. A lot of gear becomes superfluous when most of the musical world is in one tidy box. They addressed their synth problem beautifully, too. Drool!    

i dunno, I get it, but it's not like it's a $20k violin bow.    Expensive is always "compared to what"?  It's a lot compared to the Yamaha version of this, but it's also a lot more capable.  It's inexpensive compared to my piano - a fraction of the cost for a fraction of that piano's goodness.  It's a little more than the cost of one of my custom Skjold basses.  I got home from picking it up at Guitar Center in San Francisco and ordered the case plus the triple pedal, neither of which they had in stock.  That will protect it for the strictly local gigs I do right now.  They threw in two or three years of their own musical instrument coverage that pretty much covers anything that happens to it. 

 

I think a better question might be, "how much use will I get for the $$"?  Over several years, the cost will diminish in importance, but the usefulness will still be there.  If I do 50 gigs/shows/services/events with it, the cost will be way in the rear-view mirror for me.  And it will see that use. 

 

I don't leave my basses in the car unattended.  But really, I don't do that with any of my musical instruments or gear. 

 

No divorce on the horizon here... There's also no secrets, and no hiding.  My wife thinks it sounds great.  My oldest daughter (27) was prosaic - "Does it do what you need?  Yes.  Can you afford it? Yes.  Then you should buy it." 

 

There are less expensive ways to accomplish the same musical goal.  I get it.  There are also more expensive ways - my Mac laptop was about this much without the software on it or an interface, rack, etc.   It certainly won't be for everyone.  Nords have never been for me until the Nord Grand put a Kawai action in place of the Fatar and them releasing this.  Who knows.. Maybe in 5 years I'll be a Kurweill guy?

[kanefsky]

17 minutes ago, CHarrell said:

Wait, are you saying....that's not what you do with your keyboards?

 

No, I mean people leave their cars all day or night in random places, exposed to the elements or anyone who wants to damage or steal it.  So a keyboard that you take good care of and don't leave unattended for 1/10 the price doesn't seem that crazy.

[JoJoB3]

Only if backline dictated.  Speaking of a company I likely won't personally support...
Never RED.  The 'Apple products of the kybd realm'. 

Dear Nord, 
Please stop with the ridiculous red.

[kanefsky]

1 minute ago, JoJoB3 said:

Dear Nord, 
Please stop with the ridiculous red.

 

Nord could probably come out with a "Limited Black Edition" and charge a couple hundred dollars extra

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, kanefsky said:

 

Interesting.  I've never had them side-by-side, and in fact it was at least a few months between returning the Stage 3 Compact and buying the XK-4, but I remember the Stage 3 having much springier keys and being much harder to play.

 

Even if they're nominally the same action, it seems like Fatar offers a lot of customization options such as the weight of the springs,

 

I haven't played an XK4, but the Nord Stage 3 Compact keys definitely had a much more forceful pushback than the Hammond SK Pro keys.

[JoJoB3]

1 hour ago, David Emm said:

I think Nord has seriously broken through the clouds with this one, because its a real beauty, but of course, it commands a king's ransom. Never mind a serious road case; how about a *bodyguard* for it? I could almost go for a new thread on how people view (and handle) a $5K +/- instrument. Serious pros have insurance and riders to cover them, but how about a mere "normal" citizen like most of us? Is divorce on the horizon once you spend so much on gear, its spilling into two other rooms? 

 

I'll always feel piano-centric, so the Nord would be my Phantom's organ, center stage with ancillary pieces arrayed around & above it. A lot of gear becomes superfluous when most of the musical world is in one tidy box. They addressed their synth problem beautifully, too. Drool!    

Since...forever to boot. Silly company imho (but they got their fanbase so whatever).
Although also overpriced for it's build I think their C2D was the somewhat most useful of the lot actually.

[confidence]

1 hour ago, Nathanael_I said:

I think a better question might be, "how much use will I get for the $$"?  Over several years, the cost will diminish in importance, but the usefulness will still be there.  If I do 50 gigs/shows/services/events with it, the cost will be way in the rear-view mirror for me.  And it will see that use.

50 gigs with a $5K instrument is $100 per gig. Do you get paid that much for local gigs that you can breezily write that off the profit for every gig, as the operating cost for one piece of equipment?

 

Of course if you just like it and want to spend $5K on something to give you pleasure, that's completely different. But since you framed it in working financial terms, I'm curious.

[MathOfInsects]

The cost issue has been covered ad nauseam. 

 

Could you get any other single board that does what it does for you as well as the Nord does? If so, it's overpriced for you. If not, and you'd instead need to purchase two or three boards to accomplish any one of the things the Nord does better than it does it, and if the fact of additional boards was itself a detriment regardless of cost, and if the cost of the two or three boards was close to or more than the Nord...then it's priced exactly right. 

Something that's not useful to you is overpriced at one penny. Something that is perfectly useful for you is a bargain at 10K.