New Mini and MB Pros Jan 23

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

You're right: "configurable to" as opposed to a standard option. Missed it first time.

 

Still, $400?! I spent $56 (~$56+tax) to upgrade my windows desktop from 16 to 32GB!

 

(BTW I read an article about how something was $500 US and £400 UK. The author of the article wrote "I was jealous that it was cheaper in the UK". Erm, every heard of exchange rates? Funny, and makes you despair for humanity, all at the same time)

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

 

I’ve often whined, inside and outside voice, at Apple’s base RAM and storage options as well as what they charge to increase either.  It never really warranted the mark up compared to what we could get off the shelf if permitted to do so.  Now that they are using RAM and storage on the SOC - user upgrade isn’t an option at all.  But the benefit is improved performance and power efficiency.  So, we order from the factory with the RAM and storage we need.  Expect many Windows PCs to do the same as they also adopt SoC designs.  

[Anderton]

Apple owns the complete chain, from chips, to hardware, to OS, to services. That degree of integration and control allows the company to give a customer user experience that's second to none, but it's also what gives them the ability to charge what they want. 

[analogika]

3 hours ago, Anderton said:

Apple owns the complete chain, from chips, to hardware, to OS, to services. That degree of integration and control allows the company to give a customer user experience that's second to none, but it's also what gives them the ability to charge what they want. 

another view is that nobody else is doing what they are, so who’s to price a comparable upgrade? 

[b3plyr]

Back to Mac Studio noise. I have both an M1 Mini (actually belongs to my wife) and a Mac Studio. Studio is at least as quiet as the Mini. In fact, generally I don’t even hear the Studio fan.

[RABid]

Well, I broke over and ordered a Mac Mini this morning.

M2 Pro

32GB

1 TB

 

I will move most everything to it. My MacBook Pro and Air will become stripped down dedicated systems. The M1 Air will be dedicated to my Maschine Mkiii. The M1 pro for Logic and Bitwig with only the basics. No full Komplete Ultamate installs taking an external SSD that sends a disconnect warning every time I shift the laptop.

[ErrkaPetti]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:13 AM, elsongs said:

0 USB ports? For something $2K and up?

Does Apple even know what the "U" in "USB" stands for? Come on now.

Ha! USB-A is so 1997…

I have an M1 Macbook Pro 16” and never missed A-port - I love hubs also (if I should be in need of USB-A)…

The same goes with my iPad Pro M1 12.9”, just USB-C/Thunderbolt4 port…

[RABid]

I have way too many music devices that connect by USB A to give it up. Just another one of a dozen adapters you have to keep in reach when using a Mac.

[ElmerJFudd]

3 minutes ago, RABid said:

I have way too many music devices that connect by USB A to give it up. Just another one of a dozen adapters you have to keep in reach when using a Mac.

The modern Macs have thunderbolt, which is as fast as PCI slots on the motherboard. So just one thunderbolt port can have a dock attached to it with every port, you may need, including the various USB types, HDMI, card readers, etc. etc.  

[RABid]

What is hard to find is a Thunderbolt 4 doc with the older Thunderbolt ports. I have to use an adapter for my UA Apollo.

[Docbop]

But you start using multiport hub and using a many of those ports at the sametime you have a bottleneck.   For most people the bottleneck isn't an issue, but with music apps that's adding latency things waiting their turn to go through the one port on the Mac side of the hub.    

 

That why I like my MBA M2 it has magsafe power port,  two USB-C ports, and a headphone port. 

[ElmerJFudd]

Right.  Single TB on an iPad “Pro” is not great in any sense.  Any laptop should have several TB ports and a dedicated power line.  

[analogika]

54 minutes ago, RABid said:

I have way too many music devices that connect by USB A to give it up. Just another one of a dozen adapters you have to keep in reach when using a Mac.

Just about any cable that has a USB-A plug on one end has been available with a USB-C plug instead for many years now, if adapters are a problem for you. 

[analogika]

1 minute ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Right.  Single TB on an iPad “Pro” is not great in any sense.  Any laptop should have several TB ports and a dedicated power line.  

i find the dedicated MagSafe an annoyance. I’d rather have an extra USB-C port. 
 

In the studio, it’s not an issue, since I just keep a stationary MagSafe power supply hooked up there. 
 

On the road, I was looking forward to finally reducing the number of cables, now that everything is going USB-C. But that leaves me with only two open USB ports on my new M2 Pro. Plus a useless SD slot and HDMI socket I’ll never use. 

Of course, the reason I had to replace my 2016 MBP was that it didn’t have MagSafe and got pulled off a couch by the USB-C power cable, so I suppose I shouldn’t be complaining…

[analogika]

Side note: the 14” M2 Pro has been nothing short of awesome.

[RABid]

Paid $46 for an Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter to plug in my UA Apollo. Paid $30 for a USB A to USB C cable to connect a keyboard or my Machiine Mk3. The BIG difference between Thunderbolt 4 and USB 2 is the number of ports you can get.

[Adam Burgess]

I have a couple of OWC USB3 hubs (now discontinued, by the looks) which are brilliant.

No problems at all with an external SSD for any sample libraries and all the USB A and Ethernet ports for the other stuff. And enough juice and beefy power supply that can charge a MacBook and an iPad.

[miden]

Don't know why folks just don't look at the Intel NUC series. They all still have USB and USB-C ports...Plus cheaper in a few cases.

[o0Ampy0o]

35 minutes ago, miden said:

Don't know why folks just don't look at the Intel NUC series. They all still have USB and USB-C ports...Plus cheaper in a few cases.

Everything I have is Mac. I loved it more at times and now some things I love less, some equally and some more. I am annoyed with Apple. It is still so much smoother an experience to say the least compared with my experiences  present and past with Windows. 

[o0Ampy0o]

On 1/18/2023 at 1:29 PM, DeltaJockey said:

Yes, maybe I am lucky with mine. I used to use a Mac mini, and besides getting intolerably hot, the fan used to be quite noisy at times. I do also live in a very quiet rural environment, and yes my ears have definitely aged, but I do find the studio fans to be quite acceptable, even quieter than my Kronos fans!

(I assume you don't own a Kronos, as by what you said, that would probably drive you crazy.

 

I finally made it to an Apple store to check out the  Studio. I know the environment is far from ideal but I put my head 2" from it on as many sides as I could trying to gauge any noise. I could not detect anything in that environment. The worst Mac I heard in past was the chrome Motorola. I don't recall its name. I am certain I could have heard that model in an Apple store. I could not tolerate that and did not keep it long. I think I probably could accept the Pros and Cons of a Studio. 

[RABid]

I watched quite a few videos comparing the Mac Studio with the M1 Max to the Mac Mini M2 Pro, both with 32 meg. Finally found one really good video that did testing while running audio and video programs. Turns out if you are doing video the M1 Max Studio has a slight edge with more video cores. If doing audio the M2 Mac Mini Pro does a bit better with a bit faster main cores. I am glad I got the 32GB/1TB upgrade. That will future proof it a bit.

 

Now I have to figure out what to do with my 27" I7 iMac.

[Reezekeys]

21 hours ago, Docbop said:

But you start using multiport hub and using a many of those ports at the sametime you have a bottleneck.   For most people the bottleneck isn't an issue, but with music apps that's adding latency things waiting their turn to go through the one port on the Mac side of the hub.   

 

I very much doubt a well-designed hub going into a single Mac USB-C port is going to affect perceived latency with any music app, no matter what else is going through it.

 

"The M2 MacBook Pro features two USB-C ports with support for USB 4 and Thunderbolt 3 for Thunderbolt transfer speeds of up to 40Gb/s and USB transfer speeds of up to 10Gb/s."   https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/macbook-pro-13/

 

I'm happy to be corrected, but is it not the case that midi notes or even 96K audio data going through those hubs represents a thimblefull in an ocean of data throughput? Most audio interfaces, even ones with >8 ins & outs, still use USB2 - there's no need for faster data transfer.

 

I wouldn't be too worried about using a hub. The current 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros have three USB-C ports in addition to magsafe for power & charging, so one may rarely need one anyway. The smaller Apple laptops are different, but that's Apple for you - one can roll with it and accept the compromises, or move on to a different platform if it's that big an issue. We all like to complain, of course! 🙂 

[RABid]

My biggest issue so far was getting my Maschine MKiii to work with my MacBook Air. It did not like the two docs I tried. I finally had to use a doc to both power my Air and connect my external SSD. Then use an adapter cable to connect the Machine direct through the only other USB-C connection. The M1 Air is plenty powerful, but I stepped up to a MacBook Pro for the extra connections.

[o0Ampy0o]

3 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I very much doubt a well-designed hub going into a single Mac USB-C port is going to affect perceived latency with any music app, no matter what else is going through it.

 

"The M2 MacBook Pro features two USB-C ports with support for USB 4 and Thunderbolt 3 for Thunderbolt transfer speeds of up to 40Gb/s and USB transfer speeds of up to 10Gb/s."   https://www.macrumors.com/roundup/macbook-pro-13/

 

I'm happy to be corrected, but is it not the case that midi notes or even 96K audio data going through those hubs represents a thimblefull in an ocean of data throughput? Most audio interfaces, even ones with >8 ins & outs, still use USB2 - there's no need for faster data transfer.

 

I wouldn't be too worried about using a hub. The current 14 and 16-inch MacBook Pros have three USB-C ports in addition to magsafe for power & charging, so one may rarely need one anyway. The smaller Apple laptops are different, but that's Apple for you - one can roll with it and accept the compromises, or move on to a different platform if it's that big an issue. We all like to complain, of course! 🙂 

 

In that scenario wouldn't the bottleneck be at the hub itself rather than at the Mac connection? I am thinking the weakest link would be the cluster point not the freeway into the computer once something gets out of the traffic. Metaphorically seems like a possibility. In this case the design of the hub or using a hub at all would be the most important factor to consider.

[Reezekeys]

57 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

In that scenario wouldn't the bottleneck be at the hub itself rather than at the Mac connection? I am thinking the weakest link would be the cluster point not the freeway into the computer once something gets out of the traffic. Metaphorically seems like a possibility.

 

Sure but this is speculation isn't it? Any real-world examples of issues with music production or other things where a hub was the bottleneck? I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything. Also, when doing audio & music production one wouldn't typically be simultaneously streaming 4K or 8K video through the hub. I think this is much ado about nothing. I get it that it's more convenient and "cleaner" to be able to hook everything up to the computer - a hub adds a possible failure point, "possible" being the operative word. It's a bit of a tough choice, especially if finances are a consideration. For myself, a used M1 MacBook Air for around $700 plus a hub would probably be all I'd need - I might even be able to make do without a hub by recording to the internal SSD. At the lower end, (i.e. Air and iPads) Apple is designing computers for grandma, grandkids and gen-z "look at me" social media wannabes to use, not professional musicians! As Paul Anka might say, "that's just the &%$## way it IS"! 🙂  PS - the guys get shirts!

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, o0Ampy0o said:

 

In that scenario wouldn't the bottleneck be at the hub itself rather than at the Mac connection? I am thinking the weakest link would be the cluster point not the freeway into the computer once something gets out of the traffic. Metaphorically seems like a possibility. In this case the design of the hub or using a hub at all would be the most important factor to consider.

 

My comment was based on years of designing and spec'ing servers for production use and then later when working ing Media for a large church and beside editing having to be the IT guy for a lot of Mac for video and audio and what a pain OSX is for audio/video capture and Mac large file transfer.   So I said the Mac because that is where all the I/O is having to shrink down to one port.   Bottleneck is a nickname for bus contention,  like taking the subway at rush hour and only one turnstile is working.   Everyone will get through just going to take more time depending on how many are trying to get through at the same time. 

[Ibarch]

Is anyone using a hub to  push out video to 4k+ monitors whilst loading/running multi GB sample libraries off external storage?

 

That is where I would suspect any bottleneck would occur. It isn't just data transfer rates. It can put extra strain on CPU too. 

 

I can't quantify this risk in numbers but it definitely isn't 0. 

[o0Ampy0o]

11 minutes ago, Docbop said:

 

My comment was based on years of designing and spec'ing servers for production use and then later when working ing Media for a large church and beside editing having to be the IT guy for a lot of Mac for video and audio and what a pain OSX is for audio/video capture and Mac large file transfer.   So I said the Mac because that is where all the I/O is having to shrink down to one port.   Bottleneck is a nickname for bus contention,  like taking the subway at rush hour and only one turnstile is working.   Everyone will get through just going to take more time depending on how many are trying to get through at the same time. 

I think I understood and I know you have worked in that field. Let's say we have a hub, a short cable and a computer. Metaphorically as an airport terminal, the most congestion would be at the turnstile/hub compared with the turnstile/bus because the hub is a crowd coming in from multiple corridors funneled through a turnstile to get to a tunnel leading to the turnstile at the bus/entrance to the plane, yes?

[o0Ampy0o]

19 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

Is anyone using a hub to  push out video to 4k+ monitors whilst loading/running multi GB sample libraries off external storage?

 

That is where I would suspect any bottleneck would occur. It isn't just data transfer rates. It can put extra strain on CPU too. 

 

I can't quantify this risk in numbers but it definitely isn't 0. 

One is GPU the other is CPU. New Macs have souped up GPU's with their own cores and dedicated video RAM. A large enough load of data potentially can be a challenge but the powerful GPU is assisting this process. They are separate tasks working together.

[Ibarch]

3 minutes ago, o0Ampy0o said:

One is GPU the other is CPU. New Macs have souped up GPU's with their own cores and dedicated video RAM. A large enough load of data potentially can be a challenge but the powerful GPU is assisting this process.

 

The GPU is not a factor when pushing information through a hub. It is down to the CPU to control the data transfer and the data bandwidth to handle the data.  The CPU load will increase regardless of the presence of a GPU. 

 

The GPU may allow simultaneous rending of video or bit coin mining along with everything else but it won't aid movement of graphical information to a monitor connected to a hub. 

[o0Ampy0o]

5 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

 

The GPU is not a factor when pushing information through a hub. It is down to the CPU to control the data transfer and the data bandwidth to handle the data.  The CPU load will increase regardless of the presence of a GPU. 

 

The GPU may allow simultaneous rending of video or bit coin mining along with everything else but it won't aid movement of graphical information to a monitor connected to a hub. 

What use can a display make of graphical information before it is processed by the GPU? Are you saying that the CPU is what moves the data between the GPU and display?