Thinking about using an iPad...

[hrestov]

But how does Aum work? I don’t have it. Can do something that Camelot doesn’t?
 

[drawback]

3 hours ago, hrestov said:

But how does Aum work? I don’t have it. Can do something that Camelot doesn’t?
 

There are some fairly good YouTube videos on AUM basics, and you can download the user manual from Kymatica. 

[hrestov]

Indeed, I know a little of aum, although I did not buy it.

But I read here in this thread that a lot of people use it, and I want to know why. Talking about a live gig. 
Ok you can use a session for each song. But if you have several setup in a single song? Example: verse with piano and strings, chorus with hammond, verse2 like verse1, than chorus2, than bridge with a synth solo, then a chorus3. How do you get this with aum? Va you change split and sounds without changing  the session in aum? or you have to load session between the song (I think it isn’t immediate)?

And also not score viewer and backing track load. 

[Reezekeys]

I use one AUM session for the whole gig. All my sounds are loaded and active. I have different Midiflow presets that channelize, filter & reassign midi so the correct sounds are triggered and controlled in AUM depending on the song or section. I also use buttons on my controller to simply "mute" and "unmute" AUM channels with an instrument or midi plugin. That's another way to control what you hear when you play.

 

AUM can do midi filtering (note ranges, controller numbers, midi channels, midi message types) and note transposing for each channel (they call them "nodes"), while Midiflow goes further with re-channelizing, remapping controllers to different numbers, applying velocity curves to notes or scaling/restricting controller ranges. Between these two apps and StreamByter, I can pretty much do anything I can think of.

 

I know Camelot touts loading different combinations of instruments but how quickly does that happen? You can assign a midi command to load an AUM session, so it's possible to do that in AUM, but it takes time to load an AUM session; a good 20 seconds or so for mine. I can't see doing this in the middle of a song - or even between songs! Camelot has no delay when loading different combinations of AUv3 instruments?

[hrestov]

Camelot have scenes and songs. A song can have multiple scenes, each scene is for a part of a song, a scene for verse1, chorus1, verse2, chorus2, bridge, chorus3 for example. Each scene could have different split, layer, volume. When you load a song it loads all its scenes, with their auv3 and settings. I use Camelot also to manage my cp73 sounds and splits. For each song I have not much that 2-4 auv3 sounds (plus some auv3 audio effects) plus yamaha cp73 sounds. To load song it take 2-3 seconds for big songs, but it depends from what auv3 obviously. 
I use sequentially scene and use a pedal to go to next scene. Into the song there is seamless transition between scene. But you can also jump from vary scenes in the song if you want (example have only 3 scenes, one for verse, one for chorus and one for bridge and go between than with program change). 
 

To tell the truth there are 3 ways to load auv3, one is per scene, so when it recall a scene it recall the auv3, one is per song (I use this method), so when it load a song it load all the auv3 (and then scenes changes are instant) and one is per “set list”, that load the auv3 one time for all the songs. You can choose, and so you can manage well the cpu and ram. Mine 8th generation iPad doesn’t go up 20-30% of cpu. It’s similar to mainstage approach. 
 

In a live I’ll use almost 30-40 auv3 sounds (plus vary effects). It would be impossible to load all at one time. I use  mostly Vb3m, module, poison, obx, Zeeon, model d, beathawk, Digitalism, bs 16i, loopy, panda. 
 

And at the end there is score view and backing tracks (and you can link scenes changes in timeline of backing track, so the scenes automatically changes). 

[Reezekeys]

Camelot sounds like a great app. I'm sure I could have used it in my setup. I either heard about AUM first, or more likely I jumped on a sale (or both; I just checked, I paid $12.00 US for it, it's $21 right now).

 

I've been using laptops, and now i-devices, for over 15 years and have never considered loading anything during a gig - maybe it's the kinds of gigs I do. Everything is loaded at the start. Sounds like you have things dialed in nicely if your setup is working with that many instruments.

[Reezekeys]

I might have to eat my words regarding loading setups during a gig. It does look doable with my new iPad.

 

Here's my experience so far with the 9th-gen, keeping in mind it's the bottom of the line of current iPad models - the lowest spec'ed (64GB storage, A13 processor - two generations behind the current A15).

 

My AWB setup runs OK on my old iPad (an Air 2, 8 years old, A8X chip) with AUM's buffer at 256 samples. On my most demanding patch (three layered AUv3s with lots of sustain pedal), AUM's CPU meter goes into the mid-60% range. I can do it at a 128 sample buffer, but then the meter is in the mid-70% range. On my new iPad, at a 128 buffer, the same patch rarely goes over 20%!

 

The other thing I noticed, which is why I wrote what I did at the beginning of this post, is that my AWB setup loaded into AUM in around 7 seconds. On my old iPad, it took 23 seconds! So it's likely possible for me to load different AUM setups during a gig if I had to (between songs obviously, and depending on what I needed to load!). I'm still inclined to avoid this scenario, but at least I know it's doable.

 

I do realize my setup is heavier on sample playback than synth engines, so may not be the greatest example of the power of this iPad 9th-gen. So far though, I'm very happy with the performance and look forward to expanding my rig with more iOS goodies!

[Mills Dude]

So Rob, what's the plan moving forward with the new iPad?  Are you going to standardize on that and ditch the iPhone for your future AWB gigs? Are you still going to use the iPhone for your local one-off gigs?

 

Its been great following along while you test the waters.

[Reezekeys]

The phone worked great on this last AWB gig and I think our boss, being kinda old-school, doesn't like the "tech-y" look. For that reason, being able to mount it underneath like I did makes it the right choice there. The other reason the phone works for that gig is that I don't need to read music – there's no reason at all to look at the screen.

 

I have identical setups on both the phone and iPad, except the iPad has ForScore for when I need to read charts. That's usually the case on most of my local gigs. I'll probably bring the iPad as a backup for AWB gigs though.

 

The iPad is also what I use should I need to edit anything, for obvious reasons. It's not much fun on a 4" screen! Airdrop is the savior here, it's very easy to shoot AUM setups or plugin presets between the two devices.

[jeffincltnc]

Now that I am done playing gigs with my 80's new wave tribute band for the year and not playing again until January, I am going to add a 2nd iPad into my rig as a sound module to complement the Nord Stage 3 Compact on my bottom tier with extra synth layers, and leave the Wave 2 up top as-is.

 

So... I have an older iPad that I use to read chords and when I practice is connected to both the internet for practice at home to music, tracks, etc. and also has a bluetooth connection to a receiver that is in my mixer.

 

The other iPad is a new 9th gen.  I connect that at home to a dedicated router for my digital mixer and am using it to run Mixing Station in addition to all of the sound apps, effects, beat boxes, etc.  That has the Korg Plug Key on it which I am using velcro to put it on the back of the new iPad to keep the cable from tugging since it's kind of irreplaceable at this point.

 

My mixer is in a 6U SKB rack that I can carry and also has my IEM transmitter, interface for my computer, router, power conditioner, etc.   If I don't want to schlep that box I just take stereo 1/4" out of the Plug Key into my Radial Key Largo, so 2 keyboards and an iPad can sum out to the band mix.

 

I think I will be ok with getting Camelot Pro set up and order with my setlist, but I haven't given much thought to how I will control volument of the iPad without a knob or slider on my playing surface.  Any ideas for that?  (MIDI is 5-pin output to the Korg Plug Key, so I don't know if a Nord Stage 3 can use an expression pedal input and send a MIDI output over 5 pin with the volume level that will work with something like Camelot -- that may be above my knowledge set to figure out!)

[Reezekeys]

Camelot must be able to allow you to control its own main output via any control change, no? In AUM I bus everything to one "main" channel that feeds the headphone output of my iPad or iPhone and assign a slider on my controller to work it - my "master volume." The i-devices's hardware volume stays at max.

 

Your Nord's expression pedal should send CC #11 unless it's been reprogrammed. The only issue might be if it reaches other virtual instruments in Camelot; it can vary their volume or other parameters as well, which you probably won't want. You'll have to use some routing and/or filtering smarts to make sure the expression pedal data goes only to your master volume slider in Camelot. On the Nord, assigning the expression pedal to a CC # not used by anything else in your layout is another way to do it.

[AnotherScott]

For anyone using iOS 16 on an M1/M2 iPad with at least 128 mb... These are the first iPads with a true virtual memory implementation similar to what's in MacOS ("Virtual Memory Swap"). I have a question... is there an option to turn this feature off? (And if so, can you still use the Stage Manager feature if you turn off the VM?)

[BenWaB3]

Latest development - need help. I got one of the 9th. gen. iPads to run instruments, use Cubasis, etc. I just tried plugging it into the SK Pro and keep getting a message saying: "Cannot Use Accessory   HAMMOND SK PRO: This accessory requires too much power". I don't know why the iPad seems to think it has to power the SK. I've been using a later iPad (11th. gen, I think) and it works perfectly. I'm running a direct line from the USB-B on the SK to the Lightning port on the iPad. I could try Bluetooth MIDI but achieved a noticeable improvement when I went from Bluetooth to direct connection on the 11 so don't want to backslide on that. Is there something I should be doing with the 9 as far as settings go to make it think it doesn't have to power the SK? Thanks in advance.

[drawback]

16 hours ago, BenWaB3 said:

Latest development - need help. I got one of the 9th. gen. iPads to run instruments, use Cubasis, etc. I just tried plugging it into the SK Pro and keep getting a message saying: "Cannot Use Accessory   HAMMOND SK PRO: This accessory requires too much power". I don't know why the iPad seems to think it has to power the SK. I've been using a later iPad (11th. gen, I think) and it works perfectly. I'm running a direct line from the USB-B on the SK to the Lightning port on the iPad. I could try Bluetooth MIDI but achieved a noticeable improvement when I went from Bluetooth to direct connection on the 11 so don't want to backslide on that. Is there something I should be doing with the 9 as far as settings go to make it think it doesn't have to power the SK? Thanks in advance.

So it works with your newer iPad but not the other one, and you’re not using an interface (CCK etc)? Just a USB to Lightning cable?

[BenWaB3]

14 hours ago, drawback said:

So it works with your newer iPad but not the other one, and you’re not using an interface (CCK etc)? Just a USB to Lightning cable?

Apologies for the delay in answering. Yes, it works with the newer iPad, on which I have a dongle that accepts the USB-B from the SK to a USB-A on the dongle. I'm using a USB-C to 1/8" adapter from the USB-C socket on the dongle because using the dongle's 1/8" out is problematic. All that being said this system works great. On the 9th gen iPad I'm going USB-B on the SK to the lightning socket on the iPad & the headphone socket on the iPad to the aux. input on the SK. This is the setup that gives me the error message. I did try doing a Bluetooth MIDI from the SK to the 9th. gen & it works but it does have that lack of immediacy that I achieve with the wired setup on the newer iPad. I had hoped to achieve a setup that just used 2 wires, the USB to the iPad & the 1/8 cable back to it. 

[drawback]

7 hours ago, BenWaB3 said:

On the 9th gen iPad I'm going USB-B on the SK to the lightning socket on the iPad & the headphone socket on the iPad to the aux. input on the SK. This is the setup that gives me the error message.

Did you get a Lightning to USB-A female Camera Connection Kit dongle with your 9th Gen? Have you tried that instead of a direct Lightning to USB-B cord?

[Reezekeys]

23 hours ago, drawback said:

I got one of the 9th. gen. iPads

 

The one giving you a problem.

 

On 1/2/2023 at 6:05 PM, BenWaB3 said:

I've been using a later iPad (11th. gen, I think) and it works perfectly.

 

The "newer" iPad - if you're talking regular iPads - is the 10th-gen. There is no 11th-gen. The 10-gen uses USB-C so from what you say there are two dongles hanging from this? The first one plugs into the USB-C socket of the iPad and gives you USB-A (for the cable to the SK), an 1/8" audio output you don't use, and another USB-C socket that you connect to a second dongle to give you your 1/8" audio? Does this iPad runs on its battery then, or is there a power connection on this second adapter/dongle? While you describe this setup as working well, I would be pretty nervous gigging with it - that's many bits of hardware hanging off the side!

 

I've been experimenting with my new iPad 9G connected to my Roland A800 Pro using Apple's USB3 CCK. I wanted to use a lightning extension cord to make a cleaner looking setup. The idea was to use the extension between the CCK and the iPad. It works sometimes. I tried a second "MFI certified" extension cable, same thing. It worked all day yesterday, today the A800 isn't seen. When this happens, I can sometimes restart the iPad with everything connected and that fixes it, but I don't want to deal with this uncertainty on a gig! As soon as I connected the CCK directly to the iPad, my A800 popped right up. I've come to the conclusion that the only reliable way to connect my keyboard is with the CCK connected directly to the iPad. I'm using the extension cable from the iPad's power cube to the CCK - that seems to be OK. Of course, in that case the cable is only carrying power, not power and midi data.

 

Again I'll mention the issues with 3rd-party lightning accessories. Whether or not Apple is deliberately making things difficult for those selling them, I'm resigned to having to do it like this. Luckily (or unluckily!) I have no "big" gigs until April so have plenty of time for experimenting to see what works and what doesn't. Good luck in your quest!

[drawback]

Reezekeys, where’d you grab my quote from?
 

Ah I see. That was BenWaB3’s quote from my post.

[Reezekeys]

Yea, just noticed what happened there. Hmm... the forum sw is a little confused I think!

[BenWaB3]

Yeah, I'm probably the one contributing to the confusion the most. Anyway, I checked my original iPad - it's an iPad Pro, 4th. generation. I didn't realize they started a whole new numbering system with the pro. It was around iPadOS 15, which I'm updating to 16.2 right now - hope that doesn't cause any nasty surprises when I try to use it. And, yes, the USB-B out of the SK goes into the USB-A of the dongle. If the 1/8" audio out of the dongle worked correctly all the time that would be all I need. But, alas, that isn't the case so I put a USB-C to 1/8" dongle into the USB-C of the original dongle. This setup works fine. It wasn't an official Apple product but I like it because it's one of those that fit flush on the corner of the iPad instead of hanging free. I had hoped to go to an entirely dongle-less setup with the 9th. gen. model but that's where I get the message described a few posts ago. I do have the regular camera kit but I'm using that one for a church gig I have and want to keep it there (some dummy would forget to bring it along some day and that dummy would, of course, be me  ). That's for running a pipe organ app on the iPhone (the device that actually is 11th gen.) The Apple camera kit seems to have disappeared entirely from the stores around here but I'll keep looking. I do have a multi type adapter on the way that I'm going to use with the phone so I'll try that with the 9 once it arrives & see if it takes away the error message, but then we're back to a dongled setup. Hope that clears things up a bit and, if not, we'll all be doing this  :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f5MvVx8RM8

[Reezekeys]

Embrace the dongle!

 

 

(Doing my best to lessen any strain on the lightning connector and port)!

[BenWaB3]

8 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

Embrace the dongle!

 

 

(Doing my best to lessen any strain on the lightning connector and port)!

At least you didn't tell me to Smell the Glove! 

[analogman1]

Hey Folks,

So is the overall verdict Camelot pro or Keystage?

I have AUM and others but I want to approximate the "MainStage" feel as close as possible. I already have the synth programs. Just need the host.

[analogman1]

Ultimately, the more I experiment with AUM, it might actually do the trick.

 

[hrestov]

I only have Camelot, and it does everything. 

[yannis D]

16 hours ago, analogman1 said:

Hey Folks,

So is the overall verdict Camelot pro or Keystage?

I have AUM and others but I want to approximate the "MainStage" feel as close as possible. I already have the synth programs. Just need the host.

I got Camelot and the overall experience in my small studio is very similar to MS. Haven't had the chance to bring it out to gig yet though. The main thing Camelot

is superior to AUM is the fast and seamless transition from song to songbit i really can't tell you about the Keystage

[Stokely]

I may be back in the ipad-for-audio game once Pianoteq for IOS comes out...I'm still hoping to find a better mono piano.  That's if I don't get a Fantom, which according to my buddy (very picky about pianos he tends to be!) sounds great at his gigs in mono.   

I did quite a few gigs with B-3X and I have to say...while I love the ergonomics of my SK Pro I'm chasing B-3X a bit sound-wise!   

I'm picking up Set List Maker today and am going to start programming it with patch changes for my two hardware keyboards so the ipad is still going to be a part of my rig, I also use it with a lyrics app and various mixer apps.

[analogman1]

Just grabbed Camelot, I'm gonna give it a whirl.

I wish there was a way to use my VST synths on my MacBook pro (Although my moog plugins and a few others that are VSTAU3 are compatable. 

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, analogman1 said:

I wish there was a way to use my VST synths on my MacBook pro (Although my moog plugins and a few others that are VSTAU3 are compatable.

 

Sounds like there may be some confusion with the terninology, or maybe I'm the confused one. What MacBook Pro can't play a VST synth? And what's a "VSTAU3"? You mean an AUv3 right? VST and AU are two separate plugin formats although I'm aware many people refer to any virtual instrument or effect plugin as "a VST." 

 

AUs are typically Mac-only, AUv3 is an Audio Unit plugin for iOS devices, am I wrong? Also, your mention of several what I assume are iOS  plugins working on your MacBook Pro refers to Apple Silicon computers running iOS apps, correct?

[analogman1]

Update: going back to AUM.  A lot simpler. I don't need all the bells and whistles of Camelot (Looks like a huge potential but I don't wanna have to learn another program. Just want to run a few programns live on iPad and AUM is more than adequte for me!)