Commissioned a 112 Key Stuart & Sons Piano

[Nathanael_I]

3 hours ago, RandyFF said:

Nathanael,

Thank you for your detailed answers!  

 

That sounds intriguing, the 4th pedal and the way it gives you easier access to playing softly but expressively.  So in essence, how does this 4th pedal translate when playing with great force, medium force or with a light touch?  I’m curious because obviously there’s a fuller sound the harder you play, which means you could use the 4th pedal and play mf to f and get a somewhat different tonality than without the 4th pedal-?

 

Sounds like you’ll have the best of both worlds, being able to expressively and easily play ppp to fff!  Compared to other pianos, how would you describe the amount of finger strength/force required to play pp without the 4th pedal engaged-?

 

Am also very curious about the extra long sustain you mentioned.  With DPs I’ll often extend the Release on pianos just a bit so that I can use the sustain pedal less and still have an overall more fluid and connected legato sound.  But achieving this with a DP using envelopes is a bit mechanical, even artificial compared to the organic long sustain of a well-designed piano, and am curious how you would describe the qualities of this long sustain and how it influences how you play.  I imagine sympathetically resonating strings would sound all the better for it.

 

 

Related to the extended dynamic range you will have, I had an epiphany last night that will forever change for the better how I play my Kawai ES920.  I live in an apt with people above/below/both sides.  Accordingly, I’ve put the volume knob typically at 40-50%, and play with it like that to keep the volume down.  While I enjoy most things about the ES920, I haven’t been happy about how much effort it takes to play expressively.  I find I tend to have to work too hard to get the expression I want, my hands become somewhat stiff and eventually tired from exerting that much force.

 

Fast forward to last night: I’m house/dog-sitting for my cousin in hilly country in San Diego county, an acre of avocado trees etc., and have set up the ES920.  S 0 0 O NICE!  I can play as loud as I want for a change and have made a crucial discovery......

 

The musicians and engineers of Kawai designed the  sound system on the ES920 to be played at full volume! 

Randy, 

 

The curious, and very useful thing about the 4th pedal is that although the hammers move closer to the strings, nothing changes in the keystroke.  The force is the same either way.  Remember that the hammer is thrown by the escapement mechanism and hits the strings freely - the finger force is decoupled at that point.  So, even with the 4th pedal fully depressed, one can play FF on the keys!  (Just like one can with the una corda pedal depressed).  The tone is not the same as playing FF with a full hammer swing.  So, yes, if one plays pp with the 4th pedal and una corda pedal depressed, it can be very, very quiet.  But you can get interesting "other timbres" by playing "normally" or even loudly with these pedals taken. 

 

The long sustain comes from two things. 

 

The first is the bridge agraffes.  In a standard piano, the string  terminate by weaving horizontally through two metal pins driven into the wood bridge that curves across the soundboard.  When a piano string is struck from below, the string moves up under the force and then travels back down, making a familiar sine wave shape.  Over time, the string changes to moving side-to-side because of how it is held by the bridge pins.  In a Stuart and Sons piano, the string vibration remains purely vertical, with no loss of energy due to switching directions. The string passes under and over a pair of metal rods inside the body of the agraffe.  The agraffes on my piano will be made from titanium. Wayne says this improves the tone and resonance.  whether this vertical vs horizontal vibration pattern is audible is above my pay grade.  What is definitely true is that it couples the strings to the bridge in a different way, and that has a significant effect on down-bearing.

 

The second  is that the piano has essentially no down-bearing weight on the soundboard.  Where traditional piano strings push down on the bridge and soundboard with around 2,000lbs of pressure, the Stuart & Sons piano does not.  The soundboard is very free to vibrate as a result.  If you read about the physics of pianos, you will learn that one of the main functions of the soundboard is to act as a filter to the inharmonicity of the wound metal strings.  Windings on a string make it heavier, and therefore of lower pitch. But it also means that there are overtones produced that are not simple multiples of the string length.  The wood absorbs some of those.  In the Stuart and Sons, with extra freedom to move, comes two things: longer sustain and extra brightness.  Longer sustain because things can just ring out longer not damped by so much force.  This has the follow on effect of allowing the upper harmonics to speak longer.  In old, tired pianos, there's no life left in these harmonics and so the instruments are dull and warm.  But that chiming interplay of harmonics rubbing and the rich color come from these harmonics.  In a traditional piano, these are often present only in the first milliseconds of the transient.  As one plays harder, the Stuart and Sons piano just has additional "gears" because these harmonics can sustain and add complexity to the sound.  Hearing a trained concert pianist roar to a crescendo on one from 15' away is awe inspiring.  They may be the best concerto instrument one could ask for in a big hall with a big orchestra. 

 

I am not surprised that you found the voice of your digital piano with the volume raised.  I have found that piano libraries come alive when played at acoustic volumes through excellent speakers.  A piano is a big instrument, with a big voice.  Part of that is the volume! 

 

[Nathanael_I]

Here you can see how the four pedals are laid out.  On the Fazioli F308, the fourth pedal is spaced well away from the others.  This means that you can't operate it and the una corda with one foot.  In Wayne's design, one foot can easily work both pedals.    The amount of thought he's put into all the details is astonishing.  At a high level, it's just a really big piano with extra keys... but once you start looking more closely, the lifetime of innovation and listening to pianists is quite evident. 

 

[Nathanael_I]

Ashley Hribar is a superb pianist, capable of executing the full range of classical literature and also an improvisor and composer.  His demonstration of the 108-key instrument Wayne built for the Belura House (fine art venue) in Australia shows how he approaches the extra notes and what they sound like in musical context.  LIzst, Bach, Stairway to Heaven... Granados... He goes a number of different places.  It is an excellent demonstration of the piano.  Given that mine has three notes lower and 1 higher, it's highly indicative of what my 112-key piano will sound like and what these innovations bring together in musical context.

 

 

[Joe Muscara]

I guess he needed that double bench too, eh?  

 

If one were to get a more conventionally-sized (number of keys) piano from Stuart & Sons, would it have some of the same characteristics in sound and tonality, or does that come from the extra notes? I understand lots about pianos, but I wasn't 100% sure from your otherwise excellent descriptions what improvements came from the general design changes and what came from the extra notes.

[Nathanael_I]

Joe,

 

Wayne’s pianos do have a house “sound”. Obviously, the number of keys determines the notes that can be played, but the construction details around no downbearing, bridge agraffes, 4 pedals, and more have been on all his instruments - from 97 to 102, and 108 to 112.
 

‘The construction innovations are Wayne pushing the envelope based on his experience and ingenuity. The extension of the instrument in the treble is entirely possible because of advances in metallurgy.  With better wire, it has been possible to make a French loop and tune piano strings an octave higher than a century ago.  
 

In the video, Ashley mostly plays within the “standard” range, so you can hear what that sounds like too.   
 

As far as conventional sizing, I don’t think Wayne has made one smaller than 97 keys…. That’s where he started, then did 102’s for a bunch of years. He made a handful of 108 key instruments - three I think.  And realized that he could “finish” the instrument by being a clean octave above and below.  He says that building the 108s established the technical feasibility. I wouldn’t expect an 88 note from him. 
 

Interestingly, I played a 97 key once for twenty minutes or so after being two hours on a 102 key and immediately ran out of keys.  Once you get used to that low octave you just expect it!  The extended range is very natural to use. It’s just an immediate, “Of course!” When you are improvising. 

[miden]

haha, sounds strange, having folks talk about south east NSW on a US forum!

 

I have relos in Tumut, might need to check this out next time I'm there. I would never in a million years have the sort of $'s needed, but it is still interesting.

[Threadslayer]

Thanks for posting that. The effect of the extra keys really wasn't what I had imagined. It may be the moderately crappy headphones I have on my computer, but for the upper 3 or 4 keys, the mechanical clacking of the keys seemed to overwhelm the string tone. I'm 67 and my high frequency hearing - which used to be freakishly good - is still not too shabby, but I can't imagine yet more keys at the high end.

[Nathanael_I]

The highest note (C) on my piano will have a fundamental at 8 kHz!  Given that few over the age of 20 can hear 16khz pure tones very well, that means that the natural overtones this key makes are discernible to dogs and cats (and small children).  That does mean that we will not hear a "lot" from these extreme notes.  They are there. They do sound the correct pitch, but high pitches do not carry the energy of lower pitches (they naturally die out faster and are absorbed more by air), and we are not hearing all the harmonics. 

 

So why even have them? 

 

1) They still convey the musical end of a scale, arpeggio, etc.  Our brains understand the musical "finishing" or resolution even at these frequencies.  Even though the keybed noise is prominent.  (it is on regular pianos too, but our ears hear around it to a degree).

2) Ashely says in the video that he usually uses them in an octave context to provide a fuller, brighter sound.  Like the 2' stop on a pipe organ.  You can hear this to effect several times on both the low and high end.  Using the extra keys as octaves adds to the color and sound.  In my experience, balancing the extreme note dynamically so they are slightly softer than the "main" note is helpful.

3) They are interesting played very rapidly as a "wash" of sound - its a different sound than standard pianos make.  Another expressive possibility.

4) The range extensions top and bottom cover every fundamental pitch of an orchestra.  Useful for composers. Useful for improvisers who pair with synths that have 9 and 10 octave ranges.  It is a modern instrument that "fits" the expanded compass of modern music making as far as piano is concerned. 

5) Their presence moves the "plinky" notes an octave above where they are on a standard piano.  The normal 88 all resonate and ring freely.  This is highly worthwhile

6) It is is the practical limit of what can be done.  Current wire cannot take more tension without breaking. There is a minimum space needed to get a hammer and its action positioned under the strings.  It takes space to have tuning pegs, bridges, etc.  The speaking length becomes very, very small.  And it's about the highest note that we'd have any chance of hearing a first harmonic.  In truth, piano strings have inharmonicity, so there are "some" harmonics not related to the fundamental in even this highest "C", but the point is still generally true.

 

 This piano is intended to be "more" in every dimension.  It doesn't invalidate any current piano, or any current piano music.  It just says, "Here's some extra options... what will you do with them?"  Its a giant invitation to pianists and composers and improvisors to experiment.  It isn't as radical as a synth - it's still very much a piano with a traditional action and feel.   But it does take piano tone and action to places its never been before.  Some immediately obvious and useful, others perhaps useful in more measured contexts.  But that is par for the course given the already large compass of a piano relative to other instruments.  These changes bring it in line with pipe organs and the entire orchestra.

[Nathanael_I]

At the lowest end of the piano, the very lowest sub-contra "A" will vibrate at 14 Hz!  Humans are practically deaf to sound at 14Hz.  This is an overwound string, of course, like all the bass strings.  This means that it has significant inharmonicity - more as the overwinding increases to lower the pitch.  This is a note that is NOT dominated by its fundamental.  But through the magic of our brains, we hear its harmonics and the brain fills in the fundamental.  Strange stuff, but its true. 

 

And like the top end.  Those low harmonics add richness and color to all the normal bass notes. Think about the 2x, 3x, 4x, and 5x harmonics of a 14 Hz note.  They are at 28, 42, 56, and 70 Hz!  Imagine that, 5 harmonics below 80Hz!  That's a lot of color.  Add that softly beneath the normal low A at 28 Hz, and you have a richer, fuller A.  And it works for all the notes above this A as well.  For every note on the standard piano, there is a "turbo" button to add this low octave support. 

 

It's quite intoxicating.  And while these notes can be played loudly to bring out those harmonics strongly, it is truly magical to play them softly and let them speak "below" the higher note.  Of course, all manner of low rumbles, "thunder" and special effects are available.  Modern "prepared piano" techniques can use these strings to great effect to generate all manner of metallic and industrial sounding noises.  I get that's not useful for the average jazz standard, but it again extends the instrument.

 

So, the frequency extremes are "new" or "unprecedented" for pianos.  They are going to be most useful for new music or new approaches to standard repertoire, which I find very exciting and interesting.  But there's still lots of people who would disagree with me, and that's ok too.  I still love a good Steinway, Bosendorfer, Bechstein, or Fazioli.  Hearing Mozart played on a fine Steingraeber & Sohne  is a very, very refined and pleasurable experience, even though it is very, very different from what I've chosen.

[Radagast]

Is it a straight strung piano like Chris Maene’s pianos?

[Nathanael_I]

No, it is cross strung, which gives a sound I much prefer. Paulello in France also makes straight string, extended compas instruments. 

[nursers]

On 11/1/2022 at 8:35 PM, DeltaJockey said:

Congratulations on your instrumental journey, I am so envious! The nearest claim I will ever have to this,  is that I lived in the mountains near Tumut, my "big smoke" shopping town, and my kids were born in the area. (Long before Wayne moved there though.)

Like you, I am excited about the continued evolution of the acoustic piano, sadly the nearest I could ever come to experiencing a Stuart & Sons piano is to go for a drive and get a factory tour!

 

best of luck!

 

Talbingo, Adelong or Batlow?   I grew up in Tumut

[nursers]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:49 AM, miden said:

haha, sounds strange, having folks talk about south east NSW on a US forum!

 

I have relos in Tumut, might need to check this out next time I'm there. I would never in a million years have the sort of $'s needed, but it is still interesting.

@miden wondering if i know your rellies - depends on how long they've lived there. It is indeed strange seeing my hometown of 6300 people pop up on this forum...

[DeltaJockey]

5 hours ago, Dr Nursers said:

 

Talbingo, Adelong or Batlow?   I grew up in Tumut

It was Cabramurra actually. That's why apart from Cooma, we frequented Tumut for shopping too. Though, winter was a bit trickier, with the heavy snowfalls.

I had quite a few friends through work with the Snowy, in all of those towns. Perhaps we would know some of the same people. Eventually left the Snowy and moved to Canberra, like most people up there.

[nursers]

3 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

It was Cabramurra actually. That's why apart from Cooma, we frequented Tumut for shopping too. Though, winter was a bit trickier, with the heavy snowfalls.

I had quite a few friends through work with the Snowy, in all of those towns. Perhaps we would know some of the same people. Eventually left the Snowy and moved to Canberra, like most people up there.

Ahh gotcha, know Cabramurra well, used to do some work up there  

[Joe Muscara]

I was going to say how much I’m loving this thread until all the NSW discussion broke out. 
 

 

 

Seriously, I love this stuff. I love acoustic pianos and when people advance the technology of anything. It’s good to see people try new things like this. There’s a lot of stick-in-the-mud, set in their ways, “that’s not how we do it” in the mature acoustic piano world, and I love seeing someone challenge that and possibly break some paradigms. 

[Nathanael_I]

Joe, you would thoroughly enjoy Wayne. He has spent his entire life trying to improve every aspect of the piano. And, much of the guts (outside the action) have been improved. The more you know about piano construction, the more you see the myriad things he’s done.
 

I’ve had a two hour conversation about improving the music desk and fall board. He got rid of the candelabra holders that are traditionally on the music desk years ago. The 108 key came with a minimalistic iPad holder in addition to a music desk.  The music desks have been different for years - solid wood blocks some of the sound - so he made his music desks have slats so they let more rich sound to the player.  If you’ve ever played a piano with the fall board off, that also improves the sound for the player. 

[Nathanael_I]

The XM piano wire used for my piano is stainless steel.  This means that it can be touched and manipulated without damaging the copper windings. This is intentional to facilitate playing the strings directly and reaching inside the piano.  We have discussed marking the tops of the dampers so that the black/white pattern of the keys is visible, aiding navigation.  
 

So the instrument has been considered for all the ways that it might be used, even beyond the keyboard.  
 

For an instrument built in 2022, it seems appropriate to acknowledge that the piano can make sounds in a variety of ways. 

[DeltaJockey]

3 minutes ago, Nathanael_I said:

 

 If you’ve ever played a piano with the fall board off, that also improves the sound for the player. 

Interesting, and obvious I guess, but I've not done that for any length of time. I think I'll now go and sit down and do just that!

I do know I enjoy the player experience when removing the music desk.

[Nathanael_I]

In response to the question about straight stringing vs cross-stringing, this has a definitely audible result. There are two tracks below, both of the same piece. Each played on a 102 key instrument. A Stuart and Sons, and a Paulello. Both use bridge agraffes, XM piano wire, etc. The Stuart and Sons piano is cross strung in the traditional manner. The Paulello is straight strung and the harp is completely barless.   They are within an inch or two of each other in length. 
 

Gerhard Willems plays the Stuart and Sons. David Bismuth plays the Paulello.  Listen to the harmonic complexity and color.  Particularly in the bass.  
 

you can easily find a Steinway version of this. Angela Hewitt recorded it on her Fazioli, but you will have to buy the CD - it’s not on Spotify.  This is an excellent piece to use as recordings are also available on Bosendorfer.  The differences in tone and construction techniques are quite obvious even in $100 headphones 
 

 

[Radagast]

Here’s a video where the guy doing the Piano Forever videos had a bad experience with Stuart and Sons.  He goes on to practical matters however, and questions the ability to accurately tune the extra notes.

 

 

[Nathanael_I]

I know the other half of that story.  The very presence of that video tells you a lot about the person who made it.  I’ll not comment further, but his woeful tale of sour grapes is the exact opposite of my experience.  Over the years, Wayne has welcomed all sorts of folk at every level of expertise to experience his pianos.  Serious inquiries, whether artistic, sales related, or technical are taken seriously. 
 

Tuning the extra notes is easy - the same as any other. Now, I expect to pay my tuner more for the extra trouble of 24 more notes,  but why would they be any harder?  Probably the hardest thing is to find a Stuart & Sons piano NOT in excellent tune!  One doesn’t buy a Ferrari and then skip maintenance - the extreme performance potential of a world-class concert instrument demands regular attention. 

[jazzpiano88]

Fascinating!

 

The informative demo above by Ashley Hribar is really nice.  He answers pretty much all I needed to know.  I love the expanded bass sound.  It reminds me of the Carillon low bells in a way where you lose a bit of the tonality but still experience it.  And with the pedal, the low notes take on a more muted quality like an acoustic bass.   The extra high notes themselves don't do much for me but I can buy into the effect they have on the overall sound.     Great for a composer/performer to take advantage of that expanded palette!    I guess you have to be both the composer and performer as there's no place for any other pianist to play the composition :).    Are you planning to compose, record and document some pieces?

[TommyRude]

Hey Nathanael, when do you expect to take delivery?

[Nathanael_I]

1 hour ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Fascinating!

 

The informative demo above by Ashley Hribar is really nice.  He answers pretty much all I needed to know.  I love the expanded bass sound.  It reminds me of the Carillon low bells in a way where you lose a bit of the tonality but still experience it.  And with the pedal, the low notes take on a more muted quality like an acoustic bass.   The extra high notes themselves don't do much for me but I can buy into the effect they have on the overall sound.     Great for a composer/performer to take advantage of that expanded palette!    I guess you have to be both the composer and performer as there's no place for any other pianist to play the composition :).    Are you planning to compose, record and document some pieces?

I am planning to do all these things and to involve other pianists as well!  I’ve already been approached by a composer to premiere a song cycle on it.  I’ve also accepted the responsibility of arranging a premiere for it.  Wayne and I are of a mind to have new work played by someone of Ashley’s skill set, broadcast on the web to allow the most people to experience it.  

[Nathanael_I]

43 minutes ago, TommyRude said:

Hey Nathanael, when do you expect to take delivery?

Late summer to early fall next year.  There’s a LOT of dependencies, so exact dates are hard. One thing is certain, it’ll be my best “new instrument day” ever!  

[Radagast]

On 12/22/2022 at 5:32 PM, Nathanael_I said:

I know the other half of that story.  The very presence of that video tells you a lot about the person who made it.  I’ll not comment further, but his woeful tale of sour grapes is the exact opposite of my experience.  Over the years, Wayne has welcomed all sorts of folk at every level of expertise to experience his pianos.  Serious inquiries, whether artistic, sales related, or technical are taken seriously. 
 

Tuning the extra notes is easy - the same as any other. Now, I expect to pay my tuner more for the extra trouble of 24 more notes,  but why would they be any harder?  Probably the hardest thing is to find a Stuart & Sons piano NOT in excellent tune!  One doesn’t buy a Ferrari and then skip maintenance - the extreme performance potential of a world-class concert instrument demands regular attention. 

You know the other half of the story?  Do tell. Some of the comments on the video seem to confirm his experience. The question is: Did Wayne Stuart actually send an insulting message to this guy?  If so, why?   I’ve seen many videos by this guy and he’s never been negative like this.  Considering his videos are generally positive, how does this “tell you a lot about the person who made it”?  Did you actually get to the part of the video where he explains why it would be difficult to accurately tune the extreme notes on a 112 key piano?

[Nathanael_I]

3 hours ago, Radagast said:

You know the other half of the story?  Do tell.

 

Nope.  This thread isn't about that. 

 

This thread  is about my piano - which has none of that drama attached to it.  Thanks.

 

[jazzpiano88]

Are you going to keep your Kawai (have room?)?

[Nathanael_I]

29 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Are you going to keep your Kawai (have room?)?

I am planning to yes!  The Kawai RX-7 is still a magnificent instrument, in immaculate condition and fully recordable.    I think it will continue to see use, even with the big Stuart and Sons available.  1) It's a different tonal palette.  2) For scales and technical work, do I really need to be using a full concert grand?  I'll probably skip the wear and tear.  3) I have an optical rail from QRS installed in the Kawai, so it's pretty useful for capturing improv, writing, etc.  4) Guitarists "need" mulitple instruments.... why not pianists 😉 

 

Who knows, maybe there's 4-hand piano music in the studio's future? 

 

What is true is that the Stuart & Sons will dominate my present space.  It's 2'4" longer than the Kawai and wider too!   I intend to expand the space or move the studio into dedicated real-estate at some point.  But if the new piano comes here, I may put the Kawai on a piano board and tip it up against a wall temporarily.  The choice will be two pianos on the floor, or one piano plus option to set up one of the drum kits.  Given that drums and piano are  the two things that typically get recorded here....  I'm likely to opt for drums over second piano.  We will see.