Chord Visualization

[dixonge]

I don't know if it's my lack of thorough music lessons followed by years of pounding chords, or just my brain, or what. Maybe it's inherent to piano players vs string instruments? But I really struggle with any chord that has a sharp as the root note.

For example - if I see an A# chord I would have to work that sucker out manually. But if I see Bb (B-flat) I would instantly be able to find and play it in any inversion. Obviously they are exactly the same notes on the keybed.

I've been working on Moon Blue by Stevie Wonder. It is technically written in G# minor. Five sharps! But some kind soul on ultimate-guitar transmogrified some of the gnarlier chords to flats and I can actually work my way through it. For example, it starts with a G# minor w/ a maj 9th, technically, but the ultimate-guitar tabs version shows this as an Ab minor w/ maj 9th. I can just immediately play an Ab minor and I can find the 9th fairly easily, but G# minor requires me to literally play individual notes until it sounds right, and even then I can't just *find* that same chord again without thinking through it a lot.

Now multiply this for a *lot* of chords in this song.

I am working with a local musician/teacher to try to plug some holes in my music education. Theory and improvisation, specifically. He is mainly a guitar/mandolin/uke guy, so he approaches these sharp chords like it's nothing. He 'fixed' my ultimate-guitar version to correct all the chords back to sharps and I just stare at the page blankly until my eye starts twitching then I give up and go back to my flat-friendly version.

 

So - it is just me? Is it my ADHD brain? Or is this more common based on what instrument you learn music on?

[CEB]

I don't know the song you are playing but ...

 

I rarely play full block chords in any key.  It's just usually NOT a happening sound.  Learning a few tricks and techniques will do wonders.  3-7 voicings, chord substitutions, poly chords etc ...  Pattern recognition is huge in music.  As you learn songs your vocabulary builds.    If playing a Ab minor it is real common for me to think in terms of play a B major in the right and maybe Ab and Eb in the bass or just playing B major chords.  Let the bassist and guitar player set the tonal center and as keyboardist you set the flavor.  The B major is the 3-5-7b of Abm.  The flavor.  Or you can also drop the Eb and just play 3s and 7s.   This is one technique.  Block chords are too heavy and just not cool.

 

Learning the mathematics of music is powerful.

 

Sorry I  at words.

[Docbop]

I've gone both ways I think it depends on what music you're around the most.    When I was young I play guitar so lots of Rock and Sharp keys were what guitarist love.   I practice sightreading and etc in sharp keys and so Flat keys were what was odd to me and hard to remember.    Then I moved into the Jazz world and suddenly playing Flat keys all the time so Flats became the norm for me.   

 

Now as an old guy learning piano and still into Jazz flat keys are still my preference.   Even if I try to read some music in a sharp key I have to readjust my brain to remember the the sharps.   So I see this as what kind of music you play the most and the keys it typically played in. 

[dixonge]

2 hours ago, CEB said:

3-7 voicings, chord substitutions, poly chords etc ...  Pattern recognition is huge in music.  As you learn songs your vocabulary builds.    If playing a Ab minor it is real common for me to think in terms of play a B major in the right and maybe Ab and Eb in the bass or just playing B major chords.  Let the bassist and guitar player set the tonal center and as keyboardist you set the flavor.  The B major is the 3-5-7b of Abm.  The flavor.  Or you can also drop the Eb and just play 3s and 7s.   This is one technique.  Block chords are too heavy and just not cool.

 

Learning the mathematics of music is powerful.

I am really drawn to a mathematical approach. Definitely need to study up on this some more.

 

Somehow I never realized that every minor 7th contains within it a major triad in the 3-5-7 notes. *mind blown*

 

So C7 could also be played as Eb / C ... wow.

1 hour ago, Docbop said:

Now as an old guy learning piano and still into Jazz flat keys are still my preference.   Even if I try to read some music in a sharp key I have to readjust my brain to remember the the sharps.   So I see this as what kind of music you play the most and the keys it typically played in. 

OK, so maybe it's *not* just me, thanks!

[CEB]

I think I misunderstood the question.  Sorry.  

[timwat]

For me it is about familiarity bred through repetition. 

 

Docbop's experience is just like mine - jazzers it's a lot of Bb, Eb, F, lots of flat keys. First time navigating Round Midnight in Eb minor - lots of reps until sufficient familiarity. But rarely sharps.

 

But I remember my early classical lessons - lots of sharp keys. But use it or lose it, and I lost it. Stevie seems to use the most interesting keys - doesn't he realize what's he's doing to the rest of us?

 

My suggestion to the OP - I don't think there's any shortcut to just putting the time in. But don't be discouraged, putting the time in pays dividends - it's worth it.

[ElmerJFudd]

You just have to play in keys that use the sharp names as often as you play in the ones that have flats.  The name and shape will come to your mind as quickly as any other once you’ve experienced it often enough.  So, go out of your way to pick out some songs in 3 or more sharps.  
 

This is really common for kids that come up playing in school band where they consistently use the flat keys in the first three grades of music.  Where if you played in orchestra they get to the sharp keys first and flats later.  

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, dixonge said:

I am really drawn to a mathematical approach. Definitely need to study up on this some more.

 

Somehow I never realized that every minor 7th contains within it a major triad in the 3-5-7 notes. *mind blown*

 

So C7 could also be played as Eb / C ... wow.

OK, so maybe it's *not* just me, thanks!

The upper structure of a minor 7 is a major chord, and the upper structure of a major 7 is a minor chord.

(I think you meant C-7 there.)

[CEB]

2 hours ago, dixonge said:

I am really drawn to a mathematical approach. Definitely need to study up on this some more.

 

Somehow I never realized that every minor 7th contains within it a major triad in the 3-5-7 notes. *mind blown*

 

So C7 could also be played as Eb / C ... wow.

OK, so maybe it's *not* just me, thanks!

 

no problem.  The 3-5-7 trick works for most everything.  example:

• C7 becomes Em dim
• Cmaj7 or C becomes Em
• Cm becomes Eb
• etc ...

 

For solo play a nice voicing is spread 3-7s in the right and 1-5 or spread X5 in the bass to give it a tone center.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

I think we've hit on this before, but there are definitely some chords that just "feel" more like a flat or a sharp to a particular player. Even if you're used to it being named both ways, there can sometimes be something more "flat" about a chord than "sharp," or vice versa.

The other circumstance that arises is on the white-note # or b chords--Cb, B#, Fb, E#. I can cope with them if they show up on a chart, particularly if a transposition resulted in them, but if I'm making the chart those chords are always and forever named after whatever white note they are built on.

[CowboyNQ]

I have a weird variation on OP’s affliction.

 

When thinking about the black keys, I will always think (for example) Eb rather than D#.  This applies to Bb and Ab too. However it’s the opposite for F# and C#, which are never Gb and Db in my mind.

 

When reading music the key signature is the key signature of course, but where this quirk of mine manifests itself is for example when the bassist asks me “what note are we playing at…”. I will always answer as per above, even if this is not strictly correct based on the key signature.

 

Being 99.9% a rock music player, I guess this is a function of playing more music in (for example) D Major than Db Minor over the years.

[JamPro]

I have been playing piano all my life, and for me, I always find it easier to work in Gb rather than F#, and Db rather than C#.  When in F# or C#, it takes my mind just a moment longer to see the chord in my mind, and to figure out relevant relationships (IV chord, or minor II chord, etc.).  Like CowboyNQ, I prefer to think of Eb rather than D#.

 

I always figure this is just a matter of mental familiarity, and if I spent more time playing everything, I would get over it.

[dixonge]

59 minutes ago, CowboyNQ said:

I have a weird variation on OP’s affliction.

 

When thinking about the black keys, I will always think (for example) Eb rather than D#.  This applies to Bb and Ab too. However it’s the opposite for F# and C#, which are never Gb and Db in my mind.

I get that. When I play an A chord, I think of it properly - A - C# - E - but I would never refer to a Db chord as C#. I have a lot less trouble envisioning and playing a C# chord than others though. D# is a problem, G#, A# too. F# is ok, I guess because it's all black keys? 

 

I wonder if there's a technical or psychological name for this? lol

[AUSSIEKEYS]

I agree i see everything in flats not sharps. I always want to rewrite my own charts to flats but then realise this may stuff the guitarist up if shared.

 

Now not in a band and writing some charts for an upcoming solo piano gig i found i couldnt bring myself to changing the sharps to flats incase of future shared use. But I still see i need to do mental gymnsatics to associate sharp chords to flat chords whereas the flats play naturally.

 

 

 

So maybe it goes back to the musos dating motto.

 

If you have the right key

you can play in any flat.

 

[time4jazz]

21 hours ago, MaskOfInsects said:

The other circumstance that arises is on the white-note # or b chords--Cb, B#, Fb, E#. I can cope with them if they show up on a chart, particularly if a transposition resulted in them, but if I'm making the chart those chords are always and forever named after whatever white note they are built on.

Yes, this kind of thing can be an issue with iRealPro (and probably other similar apps).  It is such a nice practice aid, especially being able to transpose chord charts. But sometimes it makes unexpected (and unwanted) choices between enharmonic chords that messes with the mind. The only solution (I know of) is to save the chart in the new key and fix the offending chords. 

[analogika]

F# has SIX sharps. It includes an E#. 
 

If you’re thinking of the key next to the F# as an F, I’d surmise that being less than familiar with the actual scale might be part of the translation issue? 
 

Gb has six flats, as well. 

[time4jazz]

31 minutes ago, analogika said:

F# has SIX sharps. It includes an E#. 
 

If you’re thinking of the key next to the F# as an F, I’d surmise that being less than familiar with the actual scale might be part of the translation issue? 
 

Gb has six flats, as well. 

Oh, I’m not questioning the accuracy of the transposition. My point was in the spirit of this thread. When the app transposes songs, it will sometimes — especially if the song has several modulations — use, for example, Cb where a human would have put B. It takes some recalibration!

[analogika]

On 10/31/2022 at 7:39 PM, timwat said:

But I remember my early classical lessons - lots of sharp keys. But use it or lose it, and I lost it. Stevie seems to use the most interesting keys - doesn't he realize what's he's doing to the rest of us?

This hits the heart of a major issue: Notation comes from the music, not the other way round. 
 

Sharps and flats are so bothersome only if you were taught that music comes from dots on paper, where every accidental just adds complexity (OMG SIX SHARPS WAAAAAAA). That’s classical piano lessons. That’s how i was trained, too. 
 

But that’s not how it works, and Stevie‘s preference for F# or Gb is a perfect illustration. 
 

That key is one of the most awesome keys for a keyboardist to play in. The pentatonic is all black keys. There’s a single white key on either side of the three black keys. Super musical, nicely symmetric, and you can just bang on the black keys with whatever, and it will ALWAYS sound good. 
 

Stevie doesn’t give a shit whether it’s F# or Gb, or whatever. It’s a great key. Whether it’s got accidentals, what they’re called, doesn’t matter at all. He plays the structure, systematically, not random little black dots. 
 

That’s why notation gets the key signature out of the way at the beginning of the staff. Clarify the topography, and from then on, it’s just up and down the scale as god intended. 
 

The chords are an abstraction away from that, but they don’t exist in a vacuum. It’s all structure. 
 

That said: I too seem to have had more exposure to flat keys when it comes to cheat sheets. I don’t see what difference it would make to notate a song in F# as Gb — unless it modulates down a fifth somewhere in there. That would make that passage Cb, seven flats. Not really problematic, but going from six sharps to five seems slightly less bureaucratic. 
 

then again, modulating DOWN a fifth is rare. 

[MathOfInsects]

I think Stevie likes the black-key keys (Ebm/Gb) for the exact reason that they feel logical and easier to locate under the hands (i.e., non-visually).

The key that is most "correct" under our hands--at least in terms of running scales with the traditional fingering--is one of the last ones we learn: B. That key is custom designed for the way the hand sits naturally on the keyboard: thumb on B, black notes comfortably spaced where your second and third fingers are, thumb nudged right up against them on E, then black notes comfortable spaced again, then thumb nudged right up against those on B again, and so on. In a sane world that would be the first scale pianists learn.

[JamPro]

"Stevie doesn’t give a shit whether it’s F# or Gb, or whatever. It’s a great key. Whether it’s got accidentals, what they’re called, doesn’t matter at all. He plays the structure, systematically, not random little black dots. "

 

"I think Stevie likes the black-key keys (Ebm/Gb) for the exact reason that they feel logical and easier to locate under the hands (i.e., non-visually)."

 

Well....keep in mind that Stevie Wonder has to sing those songs.  So my guess is that Stevie Wonder picks the key he plays in largely because that is where his voice works best, not because of the way the key feels under his fingers.

 

There is an old story I heard in which the pianist Steve Allen liked to play in the key of F# so much, he had an acoustic piano made that included some sort of mechanical device that would transpose his playing in the key of F# into any other key.  I'm don't know if the story is true or not, but the story highlights the appeal of certain keys to some performers.  Bruce Hornsby's big hit is in C/Am.  Ray Charles seems to have performed in a wide variety of keys. 

[Adam Burgess]

It's just familiarity (or that word that I heard a long time ago… practise) …and knowing lots of voicings.

A few ramblings if I may. May make sense and be related, or not!

Sometimes a chart will say C9/E, but sometimes playing that chord without a C in it works in context. For example (as a Gm/E, or an Em7(b5))
 

Sometimes a simple song in Eb where block 1, 3, and 5 triads would sound too thick, with different bass notes, playing just Bb, Eb, F or Ab, Bb, Eb notes together in the right hand would give you a certain, more open quality of harmony. (Eb2 or Ebsus4, Fm7sus4, Eb2/G, Ab6/9 or Ab2, Bbsus, Bb7sus4, Cm7sus4 or Ab2/C…). If a particularly chord is too 'spiky or sparse', throw in a third or something to soften it. Again, context matters a great deal.

The quality thing really makes a difference. Try playing a tune with lots of 'watery, thick' 9th/13th chords and then at a climactic/cadential point - play a normal triad. The whole piece loses it's harmonic feel.

If you're careful about bringing out individual voices, and again in context (what's before and after), I think it's perfectly acceptable to play chords with all the notes of a scale.

Many more similar ideas are easy to poke around with. 

Having said that, I'm fine with most stuff in all keys, but for some reason… m(Maj7)s almost always get me. Are they rarer than Maj9(#11)s which are fine to me? 🤪

QUICK EDIT: Yes, when Sibelius or iReal writes Cb/F# - I really have nooo idea what that means!

[CEB]

I was thinking about the actual question and generally I'm so removed from sight reading it doesn't really make much difference in my world anymore whether I think in terms of sharps or flats. 

 

All my charts I create are number charts.   Sometimes Nashville number system or if I wrote it out I mostly use roman numerals where upper case are majors and lower case are minors.  2 reasons... 1) If need to change the key of the tune the chart is still good and 2) I think best in terms of the number systems from playing all the typical progressions in all keys for all these years.   If I write the name of the current key on a number chart I lean it's usually a flat key.

 

You play the piano until the piano plays you.  You get to the point you just play what is in your head and the hands just go.  I can't sight read crap anymore and I just don't really think much anymore.  That isn't always good.  It can be a double edged sword.