Can this keyboard be saved?

[GRollins]

I need some perspective on Fatar keybeds. As some of you may recall, I started a thread here several years ago about a Kurzweil K2500 that I got for free off of Craig's List. My original intention was to repair the keyboard, but it turned out that the electronics were fried and mangled to such an extent that it wasn't feasible. Fair enough...Plan B, formulated on the fly, was to extract the Fatar keybed and turn the thing into a MIDI front end keyboard. Amongst other things, I do woodworking (see the guitar thread I posted a while back), so making a pretty case for the keybed wasn't too weird--see photo #1. That's red oak with black cherry accents on the end caps. It worked like a charm and I was pretty proud of my Franken-board.

 

Until...

 

Okay, you knew something was up from the title of the post, right?

 

Life's been kind of a bitch for a while, what with one thing and another, so it was with a sense of relief that I finally managed to steal a few hours and go down to the Dungeon with the intent to work on a piece of music. I turned everything on and started trying to get my fingers to remember how to do keyboard things (which as some of you know, are not second nature to me, being a string kind of guy)...and that's when I discovered that I had a B key that was stuck in the down position. Well, not stuck, really, I could lift it and it would sorta stay, but if I played that note the key would not come back up.

 

Not surprising, given the way things have been going.

 

My initial thought was that maybe a guitar pick had slipped down between the keys and was jamming things up. I wasn't aware of any MIA picks, but these things happen. So as not to abuse your patience, that turned out not to be the case. The keybed itself had broken. Just sitting there, all nice and peaceful and quiet in my studio, the support fingers for the springs had simply snapped. See photo #2. (Yes, two springs have been removed--the more tilted position is a B, the less tilted position is a C.)

 

When I was building the keyboard, I had noted that two keys (also a B and a C, as it happens) had broken supports and that someone had taken the somewhat unorthodox approach of pulling the two springs behind the standoff and twisting them together. See photo #3. Although I'm sure that some of you would feel this instantly on playing the keyboard, the spring tension/key pressure seemed pretty consistent to me, so I left it alone and went on with my MIDI project. After all, when you get a free keyboard, it's not like you're in a position to complain, you know?

 

At the time, I assumed that the old break had occurred while someone had the keyboard open for repairs (and there had been some pretty grievous work done...YUK!). Maybe they dropped the keyboard with the case off and hit the corner of the bench. Well...now I'm not so sure. The board has not been out of my house since I acquired it; never abused. Yet it broke, just sitting there. The question I have for you is: Is this a thing with Fatar keybeds? If it's going to keep breaking like this, it may not be worth my time and trouble to try to epoxy those fingers back into place, especially with all the other things going on in my life. I just don't need another source of angst and frustration--got a bumper crop, thank you very much.

 

Grey

[Jim Alfredson]

I would order some replacement keys and springs and fix it. Try Syntaur. 

[GRollins]

It's not the keys or springs that are broken--it's the keybed frame itself, the black part. The keys and springs are just fine.

 

Grey

[Bif_]

Grey,

 

Not sure if you’re familiar with ‘plastic welding’ but that may work for this repair. Check it out on YouTube. 
 

I’ve repaired quite a few thinks this way. If you imbed metal mesh into the plastic it becomes very strong. 

[GRollins]

There's not much room to work--the flange where the springs mount to the keybed (as opposed to the ends of the keys) is maybe 3/4" wide and that is deeply cut by the notches for the springs. To complicate matters further, there's a standoff, like, right there, taking up valuable real estate where you might otherwise be able to fit some sort of reinforcement. I've been thinking about using some sort of carbon fiber piece to provide some extra support (assuming epoxy), but like I say, there's not much room.

 

That said, I'll check out plastic welding.

 

The original Kurzweil K2500 thread morphed from an electronics fix, "I need schematics," to a totally different, "hmmm...can I make a MIDI keyboard out of this?" thread over time. This thread may well morph from "repair the bloody keybed" to "sigh...what's a good MIDI keyboard?" before all is said and done. However, if at all possible I'd like to fix this one if it can be done. "Rescue keyboard adopted off of Craig's List gains new life as a MIDI front end," you know? One of those awww, heart warming stories. I'm hoping I don't have to euthanize the poor thing, I'm rather fond of it.

 

Grey

[RichieP_MechE]

I have several Nord keyboards all using Fatar actions and no random breakage issues.

Interesting that the second break occurred by the standoff, seemingly identical to the first one. Probably some sort of issue with the injection molding. I suspect it could happen again.

Why not just wrap the springs around like the other intrepid repairman? If you don't notice a feel issue with those keys then you probably wouldn't on the freshly broken ones another janky repair. If it ain't broke, don't fix it (uhhh you know what I mean)

[GRollins]

I'm going to have a hard time convincing myself to do such an inelegant job of repair. Does it work? Well, yes. But...man, that's some pretty ugly repair work. On the other hand, maybe the other repair critter knew something I don't...maybe that black plastic doesn't take epoxy well...? Maybe this really is the way to handle the problem. (Please say no...please?)

 

I find it curious that this break is a dead ringer for the old one.

 

And, no, in case anyone's wondering, I'm not a key-pounder. Very light touch. I have a hard enough time playing keyboards as it is and long ago realized that the harder I play, the less control I have--and I have none to spare. So it's not going to be related to me banging the keys hard.

 

Grey

[Baggypants]

Build the 37 key weighted keyboard Casiotone we've all been waiting for!

[GRollins]

In the usual way that my life works, I'm just now getting back to this, only to find...

 

...yeah, it's a design flaw.

 

Okay, it goes like this: There's a black plastic piece that comprises the frame of the keybed. There are notches along the back to receive the ends of the springs (the other end fits into the back of the key, natch). There are triangular braces that reinforce the protruding bars on either side of the springs; they fit from the bar back to a short vertical wall. Peachy. Looks like decent engineering...except...every 12th reinforcing triangle is missing. No, they didn't break away, they were never there to begin with. So that bar's weaker, right?

 

But wait...there's more!

 

That's the way they did it for the lower keys. For reasons unknown, they skipped two of the triangular braces in a row at the last two skips towards the upper notes. Why? No reason that I can discern. They just did. Guess where the breaks occurred. Righto, mate! The places where they skipped two consecutive braces. In case you were wondering, the skips are near--but not at--the legs, between the B and C keys. No, the skips don't appear to be related to the legs, structurally; there's no reason they couldn't have continued the bracing scheme all the way up the back.

 

The keybed does not appear to be modular in the sense that you could take an octave out and drop in another. Looks to be monolithic. The PCB with the diode array is certainly all of a piece. Yes, I could in theory take the keybed back off the bottom and double check this, but the front part of the frame appears continuous from one end to the other and I don't remember noting modular construction when I was building the keyboard.

 

So where do I go from here? Dunno. I'm looking about for heavy plastic (~1.5mm thick--might be able to squeeze in 2mm) that I can use to fashion after-the-fact braces to reinforce the weak bars. Clamping the broken piece accurately back into place is going to be a booger because it's got little thingys sticking out here and there and there aren't any decent flat places that are wide enough to brace against.

 

AAARGH!

 

Just needed to vent. Go back to what you were doing. I'll meditate on this for a while and see what I can come up with, but it's a doozy of a problem.

 

It also chips away at my impression of Fatar as a reputable manufacturer of keybeds. It was just flat-out dumb to design a keybed frame this way.

 

Grey

[David Emm]

Wow. The reek of diminishing returns is wreathing your head like a mix of ozone and anime toxic waste. 😬

 

I greatly admire your fortitude and semi-wasted effort to date. Its not as if you haven't plowed ahead with measured vigor, as any good tech should. Gold star for your grace under fire so far. Its hard to accept that anything Kurzweil would be such a misfire. 

 

You get to be the boss of You, but even speaking as someone with the mechanical skills of a terrier, it would be perfectly sensible to give it maybe two more shots and then call it a psychic leech. At that point, just try to recycle some of the parts. I believe in repurposing or passing gear along if at all possible, but when your cat gifts you with a dead pigeon, you re-gift it to a local politician in a Ziploc baggie. 

[GRollins]

I don't know that Kurzweil is to blame. They bought keybeds that they thought were decent quality. After all, Fatar has a good reputation (setting aside people who complain about the action, etc., I've not heard anything bad about their reliability). Granted it's old, but you certainly don't expect a keybed to self-destruct at any age. This wasn't, for instance, an adhesive or lubricant drying out. That I might be able to accept. For the frame to simply mechanically collapse on its own is something I never anticipated.

 

Still mulling over options, but I must say this is disappointing.

 

Grey

[Adam Burgess]

Fixed my own, and others' Korg RH3 keybed many times. 

It is sooo well built, and properly modular. Everything can be replaced; from the plastic frames that hold everything to the chassis, to the hammers and tops, the contact boards, the springs, the keys… Pleasure to work on! 

Wish you all the best! Self destruction is a worrying thing - but plastics do get brittle after time.

Maybe if right to repair ever becomes a proper law, manufacturers will have to think of a way to make these plastic parts interchangeable/provide 3D print files, without them being cloned. That's quite a tough one.

 

[GRollins]

The keyboard is back in service. I'll post a few pictures later today, but this is what I did:

1) I checked whether the black plastic part of the frame (which comprises the forks that hold the springs) would melt with acetone. It did. Good.

2) I used a shop syringe to get acetone into the break, then clamped everything into place.

3) While the break was setting, I cut heavy black plastic (don't remember the exact thickness, but >0.100") into two T-shaped pieces. No, I didn't mill it that way--just took advantage of a structural brace that was already part of the source piece. No, unfortunately this plastic didn't soften with acetone.

4) After giving the break several days to cure, I removed the clamps and all. It held. Good. It wasn't that I expected the welded plastic to support the tension of the springs, but every little bit helps and I definitely wanted it to at least hold the pieces in alignment for the next step.

5) I turned the two T-shaped pieces I had cut sideways into the broken area with the top of the T against the main body of the frame and the lower part of the T facing outwards, towards the back of the frame, to take the place of the braces that Fatar inexplicably left out of the spring supports. Yes, there was sufficient clearance behind the springs. Epoxy liberally.

6) After letting that round of epoxy mostly cure, I went back in and put more into any low/weak spots.

7) After curing for four days, I figured the epoxy was good to go (I don't trust "5-minute" epoxy to develop full hardness for at least 24 hours) and reassembled the keyboard.

 

So far, everything is holding. Ask me in a year how it's going and I'll give you an update. The relentless 24/7 tension of the springs may well be the death of my repair, just as it was for the original frame. I know this isn't necessarily a cookbook sort of response that others can follow to fix their Fatars should they have the same problem (in particular, I do NOT recommend that you cut little pieces of plastic on a Delta table saw with your fingers a quarter-inch from the blade--foolhardy, I am), but perhaps it can stimulate others to think of ways to rehabilitate their keybed instead of throwing it out.

 

Grey

[SamuelBLupowitz]

Grey, I so admire the time and skill it took to get this back into playable shape! You were much more successful than I was with the shot action on the Suzuki stage piano my parents bought me in 2002 and delivered, unannounced, to my home in 2020. 🤣

[GRollins]

I frequently have trouble organizing text with uploaded photos...we'll see how this goes.

 

This is the keybed after using acetone to melt/glue the black plastic part of the frame back together:

 

 

The two T-shaped pieces I risked my fingertips to cut:

 

 

[GRollins]

And the two T pieces in the processes in the process of being epoxied into place:

(If you squint just right, you can see the lower parts of the Ts pointing towards you, becoming the braces that Fatar forgot)

 

 

[GRollins]

For some reason that isn't clear to me, those pictures are all rotated relative to the orientation I see here on my PC--180 degrees in the case of the last one. Not that it will hurt anything in this case, but it would sure be weird if I was posting pictures of a band or something.

 

Note that the white things on the keybed in the first and third photos are pieces of masking tape to serve as references for the beginning and end of the work area. I anticipated that the break might become hard to see after I did the acetone glue trick...and it did, so I was glad to have start/stop points that I could easily see. Needless to say the masking take was removed later.

 

I've lost respect for Fatar over this. It was a bone-headed mistake on their part not to brace those two places. If I had the broken piece from the older failure, I could have used the same process to repair that area, but alas, whoever did that repair threw away the part. At least in my case, I didn't have to resort to stretching the springs. And, yes, I spent a little time feeling the keys at the older break and can now discern that one of the keys has a little lower tension. It's not a deal killer, but it's there. Hey, for a free keyboard, it's still a good deal. Okay,the original Kurzweil was free, but I wasted an ass-load of time and effort trying to fix it, then had to build the oak/cherry chassis that you see now. And then there's this goofy fix I've had to do, but, yeah, I still regard it as free. Sorta.

 

If anyone's got a dead keyboard they're just going to throw away, let me know. I've got some ideas I want to incorporate if I ever get so stupid as to do this again...

 

...but I'm not going to do this again, am I? (Gawd, I'm dumb as a box of rocks sometimes...I've got a little keyboard [also free] that I'm threatening to turn into a set of bass pedals. Fun project if I can only find the time. Not yet clear if all the keys work--seems to output MIDI for only a few keys, hoping I can get that fixed up. Or maybe I can find a keyboard that outputs all the MIDI. Or maybe I'll start going to a shrink.)

 

Grey

[mate stubb]

Excellent improvisational fix. Sometimes coming up with a good solution can be as satisfying as playing some music...