LX 88 Posted October 15, 2022 Posted October 15, 2022 OK...its been an interesting week for tonewheels and clonewheels..... The local piano store called me and asked if I would be willing to REMOVE a 1954 very late model Hammond C-2 and PR 40 from his shop. I had actually played this organ about a year ago and was severely tempted to buy it at that time. I am a fan of pre B-3 era organs . In case you don't know they do sound different in a good way.If you have ever heard a 2 series organ through headphones, the fidelity is incredible. Al;so the chorus vibrato is slightly different also in a good way. And if you add Trek 2 percussion you have everything you need to get tonewheel heaven. So anyway now this organ won't start and is squeeling and howling when you do try to start it. Back in the day I used to be a member of the Hamtech forum and guys like Sal Azzarelli and Harvey Olsen would always be there to tell me what I needed. As far as I know that forum no longer exists and this one is all I currently have. I know there are a few guys familiar with tonewheels....so I am reaching out once again for any info. Also...... IMO the PR 40 tone cabinets are also very cool. I don't need a leslie..... Hammond designed these cabinets to capture the sound of the organ tone and from my experience the PR 40 does this the best. It uses 2 15 inch woofers and 2 12 inch Jensens and uses no high frequency horns or anything like that. Anyway they made me a nice offer to come and get this thing. Does anyone have any info about addressing this generator noise? Thank you in advance....
jpgxk3 Posted October 15, 2022 Posted October 15, 2022 Start off by oiling the generator and starter motor. Look for oil threads and add a couple drops there to help move oil to where it needs to go. Avoid over oiling the chorus generator;? Don’t recall if a C2 is different from the ABC-3 family? Others will also chime in. Takes a couple few days for oil to wick in. Good luck; had a C2 for a short while, great tone, built like a tank. 2
LX 88 Posted October 15, 2022 Author Posted October 15, 2022 Yes...the generator was oiled from the top. George Benton has a website and he mentions trying to oil it from the bottom by lifting the generator. I believe they can actually use WD 40 externally but I am well aware that the Hammond oil is recommended for the internal gears. I have been able to fiddle with it at the store buy at this point they are so sick of it that they are willing to deliver it to my house. I would really like to find a Trek 2 percussion unit but I have also actually seen 2 series organs wired up to 3 series preamps with percussion switches. I would like to keep the preamp stock but I am intrigued by the Trek 2 units.... I believe they have percussion volume and decay adjustments right there. Everyone that I have known that has them seems to like them. I am pretty sure that the recording of The Sermon by Jimmy Smith features a B-2 with no percussion. That is a sound that you just can't get with a modern clonewheel. That is where you can hear what the key contact business is all about.
mate stubb Posted October 15, 2022 Posted October 15, 2022 B-2s are great organs. Have that puppy delivered asap and we will make sure you can get it started. Moe ---
LX 88 Posted October 15, 2022 Author Posted October 15, 2022 So yes....I would be looking for a Trek II percussion unit when it gets here. I am not sure if they show up on e bay or if anyone here might have one???? The tone cab has 2 mint Jensen P12Q. They usually get a pretty good price on the ebay, that would cover the percussion unit expense. I actually played this organ last year. They keybed is great, it has smooth drawbars, and the chorus vibrato on it was sweet. This is a late 1954 C-2, right before they switched to B-3/C-3. As I said I have seen at last one savvy person add a B-3 preamp and the percussion switches. I have also seen an M-3 preamp hooked to a C-2 for percussion, But I am intrigued by the Trek 2 percussion unit so I am looking for that. I have not had a 2 series..... the thing that attracts me is how simple the preamp is. Its very old school tube technology and different in such a good way. We will see how this pans out.
Outkaster Posted October 15, 2022 Posted October 15, 2022 Ask Mike at Trek. Because of Covid certain things aren't available. Why would you want to reinvent the wheel. the tone cabinet isn't worth anything: A C2 is a 500 dollar organ at best but this is the unit you need. https://trekii.com/products/tp-2b-percussion-unit.html "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com
Jim Alfredson Posted October 16, 2022 Posted October 16, 2022 PR40s are great speakers. Paired with a Leslie you have BASS for days. I record both a PR40 and a Leslie for jazz organ records. Killer combo. The late 2 series organs are my favorite. Put the regular TrekII percussion in there. Keep the original preamp. That's the sound. 1 Keep it greazy! B3tles - Soul Jazz THEO - Prog Rock
LX 88 Posted October 16, 2022 Author Posted October 16, 2022 What is this business that PR40's aren't worth anything ?....that is total nonsense. Now I find out that in addition to the Jensen P12Q's this thing also has P15 N woofers. Uh.... have you checked the SOLD LISTINGS on e bay for the cost of vintage Jensens ? As indicated by the above post there are certain people who actually LIKE or prefer the sound of 2 series organs. One reason I like the PR 40 is that it captures some of the MIDRANGE of the Hammond sound that some leslies don't always get. In a leslie you have tis15 inch woofer firing at the floor and then a high frequency driver....if you take a good look at a lot of the old Jensens horn driver MANY of them have ALIGNMENT problems which cause distortion as soon as you turn them up. I happen to like the sound of the PR40. It gives me all the bass I need and all the mid/ highs which it was designed to do.As far as it being worthless....it appears to be just another example of devil's advocacy.....quite common with the person who posted it.
CEB Posted October 16, 2022 Posted October 16, 2022 This times 3000. Heaven is two Leslies and a PR40. 20 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said: PR40s are great speakers. Paired with a Leslie you have BASS for days. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
CEB Posted October 16, 2022 Posted October 16, 2022 I’m sorry if I am yakking too much in 2008 onward I have really gotten into the tone cabinet sound. As an alternative I use Stop. But for simple lead lines or repetitive chords in a song. Stop or a tone cabinet kills. Using a Leslie any Leslie sim on something like Price Tag would suck. One of Boyd’s stupid organ tips is ‘Know when the Leslie sucks’. This is from the same book where Boyd says ‘Know when to keep 16’ shoved in at 0’. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt
Al Coda Posted October 16, 2022 Posted October 16, 2022 27 minutes ago, CEB said: Heaven is two Leslies and a PR40. For "heaven",- I can imagine a 100W tube amp head and 4x12" cab in addition ... A.C.
Polkahero Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 4 hours ago, CEB said: This times 3000. Heaven is two Leslies and a PR40. I run four Leslies and a PR40. The tone cabinet really can't compete with the Leslies, doesn't really add much to the overall sound. '57 Hammond B-3, '60 Hammond A100, Leslie 251, Leslie 330, Leslie 770, Leslie 145, Hammond PR-40 Trek II UC-1A Alesis QSR
Outkaster Posted October 17, 2022 Posted October 17, 2022 22 hours ago, LX 88 said: What is this business that PR40's aren't worth anything ?....that is total nonsense. Now I find out that in addition to the Jensen P12Q's this thing also has P15 N woofers. Uh.... have you checked the SOLD LISTINGS on e bay for the cost of vintage Jensens ? As indicated by the above post there are certain people who actually LIKE or prefer the sound of 2 series organs. One reason I like the PR 40 is that it captures some of the MIDRANGE of the Hammond sound that some leslies don't always get. In a leslie you have tis15 inch woofer firing at the floor and then a high frequency driver....if you take a good look at a lot of the old Jensens horn driver MANY of them have ALIGNMENT problems which cause distortion as soon as you turn them up. I happen to like the sound of the PR40. It gives me all the bass I need and all the mid/ highs which it was designed to do.As far as it being worthless....it appears to be just another example of devil's advocacy.....quite common with the person who posted it. I'm in the business and tone cabinets don't generate any revenue. People don't want them. They might fine to you but as someone that does this a lot I can tell you they aren't popular. "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com
LX 88 Posted October 17, 2022 Author Posted October 17, 2022 These things aren't always about REVENUE or the amount of MONEY that something generates. I guess to some people that is the BOTTOM LINE. I made my living as a professional musician for many years and about 25 years ago got interested in Hammond organs, and Fender Rhodes and Wurlitzer EP's for rentals to recording studios and live gigs. During these years I rented Hammond and Leslie equipment to Billy Preston, Joey DeFrancesco, Dr. Lonnie Smith, Briam Auger, Tony Monaco , Chester Thompson and many others. This happened up and down the West Coast between Portland and Seattle and occasionally beyond. During this period it was always a privilege to ask a lot of questions,,,,these guys always had a lot to say about what they did and didn't like. The biggest problem was DISTORTION in single leslie systems. Most of these guys did like to crank it . So a big problem would be the leslie and finding tubes that did not break up and also treble drivers that did not distort. So my solution was suggested to me by Bob Schleicher in the Bay Area. He recommended that in these rental leslies that I install Atlas horn drivers. And it did give me a better result. So back to the PR 40. I like it because it does not have a horn. I like the way it responds to percussion and the fact that the 12 inch drivers capture all the high frequencies of a Hammond. AS it was intended to do. I had been looking for a 2 series organ for awhile and also a PR 40. The monetary value means nothing or not much. As indicated abpve there are plenty of other people that agree that THEY ARE NOT WORTHLESS.
Outkaster Posted October 18, 2022 Posted October 18, 2022 That's fine your not making a living in this business. It isn't that it's the bottom line but trust me a lot of guys don't care about tone cabinets. "Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello" noblevibes.com
Lou_NC Posted October 18, 2022 Posted October 18, 2022 Hey just out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried a PR 40 cabinet with a Ventilator?
LX 88 Posted October 19, 2022 Author Posted October 19, 2022 A lot of guys do a lot of dumb things. Some guys think outside the box . I might be one of them.....maybe. So for the rest of you who don't have to have a B-3 and a 122....or maybe don't have to have a Hammond Suzuki logo on your clonewheel I finally did get the C-2 running. There was a problem with the start motor not kicking over ... that was stuck. So the C-2 is now purring sweetly. The PR 40 works fine... and as I have been saying....it is a match made in Heaven ( my opinion) with this C-2. The old Hammond guys were correct. The PR 40 sounds warm and fat because of the 2 15 inch woofers for lows and the two 12 inch speakers that catch all the highs. There is a sweet spot on this thing that sounds quite unlike a leslie speaker. There is an emphasis on midrange that I find lacking in a leslie. Sorry....but that is what I hear. Of course right now there is no percussion on the C-2 but I bet it sounds just fine when it is installed. And no I don't have to have anything spinning. The chorus vibrato is just fine with me....there are so many jazz recordings that give examples of that. 2 speed leslies did not even become common until the late 60's Booker T. era and that was more of a rock thing. And correct me if I am wrong ... but do I see only two tubes in the C-2 preamp? How beautifully simple. It seems to add to the warm character that I am hearing As far as adding a Vent to the PR 40....well first it is not stereo. And once again it is not spin I am seeking. The Hammon CV is just fine left alone. The point of all of this....if it is correct that a C-2 and PR 40 is only "worth" 500 or less then strongly consider it if you can find one. It's a lot of Hammond for that money.
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