Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[Paul Woodward]

17 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I’ve been researching the CK for a while but to me it also seems the sounds are a bit lukewarm and not up to the same quality as the ones in the CP/YC series. It’s possible that they are lite versions (less memory for AWM samples?) of the same patches. 
 

In any case the CK is a tempting option for live playing, especially for the price and all the features. 

What sold me is the more pro features of the YC that are included (and that I miss from having a YC). IOS integration, midi master keyboard to name a few. It certainly punches above its weight and once you stack three sounds they get almost too big. Lots of tweakability and that wave trigger function is more than a gimmick. Keybed is fast and responsive too.

it does make sense that it’s slimmed down in terms of sound quality too, but I guess the CP or YC is the way to go if top quality is what you need.

I still prefer the GS piano over the YC anyway so I’m covered there.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, pjd said:

If someone is considering a CK61 in particular, you might want to try or compare with an SX700. The PSR-SX700 has the so-called "Organ Flutes" drawbar organ -- which is probably the same tech ripped off for the Reface YC and CK. Just sayin'.

 

I like the CK at its price point, but there are alternatives.

 

Yup. Yamaha has a lot of overlaps in what's available in their different series of boards, along with all their differences. The SX700 does look like a very nice board, but you obviously also lose a lot from the CK61. Yes, the price. Also it's about double the weight. And while it supports 4 sounds at a time instead of 3, it only supports a single split point (so it's a max of 3 sounds over 1, vs. 3 sounds that can each have their own sound ranges split any way you want). Then of course there's much of the board's raison d'etre, all the real time control (9 sliders for drawbars, easy real-time split/layer manipulation, and numerous real-time filter, envelope, and effects assignments/controls). And the independent 4-zone MIDI control... I'm not sure, does the PSR-SX700 support external MIDI zones at all? I don't think it does.

 

Anyway, the point is, regardless of how little or how much the sounds overlap, it's really the functionality and operation that distinguishes these boards, such that I suspect any given user would find one much more suited to their needs than the other. 

[pjd]

2 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Anyway, the point is, regardless of how little or how much the sounds overlap, it's really the functionality and operation that distinguishes these boards, such that I suspect any given user would find one much more suited to their needs than the other. 

 

I agree.

 

My main point, however, is that the CK -- and even the Stage CP/YC "extra" voices -- are on-par with middling arranger series voices at best. I don't know how or even why Yamaha chooses to put less-than-premium voices on relatively expensive 'boards. With CK, at least, you get what you pay for it.

 

This is one reason why I can't bring myself to buy a CLP-series Clavinova for home. The secondary ("extra") voices are crap and the CLP instruments are waaaay more expensive than the Stage YC/CP in comparison. [Edit: That's why the P-515 is a genuine bargain, IMHO. 😉]

 

Sorry, the quality gap between the featured voices and secondary voices in Yamaha keyboards is one of my hot-button issues. The hardware platforms are ALL capable of better.

 

-- pj

 

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, pjd said:

My main point, however, is that the CK -- and even the Stage CP/YC "extra" voices -- are on-par with middling arranger series voices at best. I don't know how or even why Yamaha chooses to put less-than-premium voices on relatively expensive 'boards. With CK, at least, you get what you pay for it.

 

Yes, no matter what you pay, Yamaha compromises the sounds somewhere. The YC, Montage/MODX, and Genos all have some sounds that are much better than their equivalents on the others. Sometimes, I get it, it's architectural, and the board's different designs support different things; or a newer board has something an older board didn't. But sometimes there's no apparent reason they had to use a second-rate sound somewhere.

[AnotherScott]

On 8/8/2023 at 4:12 PM, AnotherScott said:

as far as I've seen, unlike the YC, no screen that will show you which sounds are currently assigned to the 8 live set buttons, meaning you kind of have to scroll through each sound to find what you want

 

Look what I found! Press the "previous page" and "next page" buttons simultaneously... and the screen shows you the names of the sounds currently assigned to the 8 buttons! For me, this is a huge improvement to the way the board works. I'm surprised they didn't find some way to indicate this on the front panel itself. Yeah, it's in the manual, but compared to the rest of the board's design, this important function is surprisingly non-obvious. There are some other 2-button operations, but most of them are merely shortcuts for things you can do through the menus, while this is something major that you can only do through this "unlabeled" function. 

 

On 7/13/2023 at 3:29 PM, Charleston said:

Has anyone noticed that you only see the names of the layers on the screen, when they are turned on?

...

I think I would rather see all 3 at all times, and then highlighted if turned on or off.

 

Yeah, it would be much better to see what sounds were associated with the A/B/C buttons even when they're not turned on. Which would also mean that, for example, the sound associated with slider C would always be the one on the third line. (I find it dis-orienting when the sound for the third slider is on something other than the third line.) Loaded but "inactive" sounds could be indicated by some other visual cue, like displaying the sound name in parentheses (truncated if need be), instead of concealing them from view entirely.

 

For Live Sets that consist of 3 "on the fly" switchable/combinable sounds, I'm experimenting with naming those Live Sets with 5 characters for sound A, 5 characters for sound B, 5 characters for sound C, so that the patch name indicates what the 3 component sounds are, even if they are not called up in their Active state. It's best if I can use 4 characters and a space, but using all 5 characters should be okay as long as (only) the first character of each sound is capitalized.* (There are other sounds where the  composite of the three sounds are designed to combine to create a single patch for a particular song, where all 3 should always be active... those get named with the name of the song.)

 

* - The reason I'm trying to enforce 5-characters-per-sound has to do with the first thing I mentioned above, seeing 8 Live Set names on the screen at once. If their component parts all line up in 3 neat columns, I figure it may increase readability and make it easier to quickly find what I'm looking for.

[Paul Woodward]

I have been comparing (from memory) the CK61 to my YC61 in terms of sound quality and I can see why it’s described as ‘thinner’. Anyway, saw a video on YT suggesting changing Master EQ in settings. Hi freq 6.3khz, Mid freq 3.2khz, Low freq 125hz.
Maybe it's just my headphones, or my taste, but it sounds better now, nearer to the more ‘fully sound of the YC. 
Worth a try if you are not happy with the sounds?

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I have been comparing (from memory) the CK61 to my YC61 in terms of sound quality and I can see why it’s described as ‘thinner’. Anyway, saw a video on YT suggesting changing Master EQ in settings. Hi freq 6.3khz, Mid freq 3.2khz, Low freq 125hz.
Maybe it's just my headphones, or my taste, but it sounds better now, nearer to the more ‘fully sound of the YC. 
Worth a try if you are not happy with the sounds?

 

But what do you do with those frequencies? i.e. cut or boost, by how much?

[drawback]

I’m not near my CK61 for a few days right now to give some numbers, but as with every board I’ve owned, I’ve adjusted the acoustic and electric pianos. The CK’s generator and filter controls are very powerful. EQ is sweetening to taste.

[Paul Woodward]

36 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

But what do you do with those frequencies? i.e. cut or boost, by how much?

In master EQ, they are the settings for each frequency band (hi, midi and low). He also advises setting the output at +6db. Did both and they improved the sound.

its in the Live Set EQ that you can adjust and boost the frequencies, these are in the global settings.

[AnotherScott]

12 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

In master EQ, they are the settings for each frequency band (hi, midi and low).

 

Right, but those settings don't do anything unless you actually apply a boost or cut. Are you seeing a light to the left of the word "Equalizer" above the EQ sliders on the front panel? If it's not lit up, it's not doing anything, regardless of what you set the frequencies to. If it is lit up, then there is some amount of cut or boost applied to one or more of the three frequencies, and that amount was what I was asking about, i.e. if the person who suggested those frequencies had also suggested an amount of cut or boost for them. Still, that info would only be a potentially interesting starting point, since not only are people's preferences different, but also the success of given EQ settings can be specific to someone's particular playback system and/or room.

 

12 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

He also advises setting the output at +6db.

 

The output gain setting? If that's "improving" the sounds, it's probably just the effect of making it louder. 

 

[AnotherScott]

57 minutes ago, drawback said:

I’m not near my CK61 for a few days right now to give some numbers, but as with every board I’ve owned, I’ve adjusted the acoustic and electric pianos. The CK’s generator and filter controls are very powerful. EQ is sweetening to taste.

 

On my CK61, I have used the master EQ to lower the mid by 10 dB, which I admit is pretty extreme! May be more than necessary, but seemed to be a good sound for a cutting rock piano. I haven't tried that one at a gig yet, though. (I left the frequency at the default 1k.) I also made adjustments to the velocity range and offset.

[Paul Woodward]

Video is here…

 

[AnotherScott]

6 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

Video is here…

 

Those 3 EQ settings may or may not be what someone prefers, but either way, they will make NO change to the sound UNTIL you move one of the three sliders on the right up or down. Those EQ settings, by themselves, do nothing... rather they change what will happen when you move those other three sliders.

[Paul Woodward]

I already had my low and high nudged up by 1 on the sliders, so perhaps that explains why I found the sound to be improved.

All personal taste of course.

[drawback]

Is anyone using any sound reinforcement to enhance (not replace) the internal speakers? For low volume only - there’s a Yamaha 8” sub that’s designed specifically for their internal speaker keyboards.

[CyberGene]

So, what’s the consensus about the CK61 after some of you have owned it for a while, is it a keeper?

 

I’ve been loving my Numa X Piano 73, however I replaced my SUV with a new one that is PHEV last month and the trunk is unfortunately smaller (due to the batteries) and seems I can’t fit my Numa X Piano anymore without folding the seats but that’s asking the burglars to thrash your car since they will see there’s a music instrument inside 😒 I can only fit a keyboard that is 96cm long and that leaves me with almost no choice. The CK seems like a good fit though.

[Paul Woodward]

I love mine. Occasionally I spot a YC going 'cheap', but I remember the keyboard I didn't like at all (not to mention the noise that develops). 

I also prefer being able to layer any three sounds or make three split zones. Add in the wav playback and you have a board that is actually better in some respects (proper pitch and mod wheels) No doubt the YC (and CP) are built and sound better, especially organs, but are they worth over double the price?? 

For anyone who isn't using them for pro use (and doesn't expect a fair few knocks), the CK performs admirably. Paired with a weighted bottom board and ipad, I have all I need really. 

[Paul Woodward]

I should add that the setup in the pic requires just two audio outs to a desk or PA. Korg goes to the line in on the CK, iPad integrates nicely over USB. CK master keyboard function controls all of the equipment for live sets.

 

I have a small Yamaha USB mixer too which, if needed, can actually run off the Korg or Yamaha USB 5v socket so I dont need many power supplies either. 

 

[CyberGene]

@Paul Woodward what do you use the Korg and the Yamaha for? Is the CK only for organs? Because I assume the acoustic and electric pianos are quite good on the Grandstage?

[Paul Woodward]

16 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

@Paul Woodward what do you use the Korg and the Yamaha for? Is the CK only for organs? Because I assume the acoustic and electric pianos are quite good on the Grandstage?

I love the Korg piano (AP and EP). The board has something like 30gb of sample data so they are rich and nuanced. Others will disagree, but I prefer it to the YC and CP weighted boards. I am even thinking of buying an 88 note version for the studio and taking the 73 out to play!!

IPad cost me just £200 new and I had already invested in Module IAP’s, so it’s a glorified sound module to expand sounds and layer. Imagine Floyd’s ‘Shine on…’ with up to seven sounds (plus can trigger a wav file if needed). I’m just old fashioned with a weighted bottom board and smaller synth style board on top. Rather have sounds at easy access rather than multiple live set changes per song.

[Paul Woodward]

My previous setup ran all the sounds from a YC, with a weighted controller playing the pianos. Exact same could be done with the CK to be fair, but I would miss the Korg pianos and feel of the RH3 board. I have considered a Korg D1 just to get that keybed and it weighs a bit less than the GS73.

 

[CyberGene]

Went to a store today after work and tested the CK 61. The pianos, etc were good but I spent most of the time tweaking the analog leads, applying effects to turn them into some psychedelic soundscapes. Absolutely loved it. There was only a floor model available so they gave me a 10% discount off the €1000 price which I think is a good deal and I purchased it for €900, ordering the dedicated soft bag online for €100. I was amazed at how light and small it looked there! Not sure who said it first, but I agree this is the proper reface. 

[Paul Woodward]

26 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Went to a store today after work and rested the CK 61. The pianos, etc were good but I spent most of the time tweaking the analog leads, applying effects to turn them into some psychedelic soundscapes. Absolutely loved it. There was only a floor model available so they gave me a 10% discount off the €1000 price which I think is a good deal and I purchased it for €900, ordering the dedicated soft bag online for €100. I was amazed at how light and small it looked there! Not sure who said it first, but I agree this is the proper reface. 

I hope you are happy with it. Try some of the Blake Angelos sets on Soundmondo. I went with the Gator bag for £55.

[drawback]

On 10/11/2023 at 10:52 AM, drawback said:

Is anyone using any sound reinforcement to enhance (not replace) the internal speakers? For low volume only - there’s a Yamaha 8” sub that’s designed specifically for their internal speaker keyboards.

I posed this question earlier but since this thread is revived a bit, I'll ask again. Looking to add some depth in a small room – at home or with another player. I'm also looking at that little Roland KC-220 which obviously is more versatile. Anyone?

[ImproKeys]

I am using one or two active pa speakers (Yamaha). I see no sense in adding a sub, as the internal speaker would still try to reproduce the low frequencies so they will distort at higher volumes 

[wineandkeyz]

17 minutes ago, ImproKeys said:

I am using one or two active pa speakers (Yamaha). I see no sense in adding a sub, as the internal speaker would still try to reproduce the low frequencies so they will distort at higher volumes 

 

You could always turn the internal speakers off when you use external ones.

[ImproKeys]

2 minutes ago, wineandkeyz said:

 

You could always turn the internal speakers off when you use external ones.

That’s what I do. I was referring to the question wether it is a good idea to only connect a subwoofer to the CK. 

[Tripp323]

CK61 has a handy switch on the back to turn off speakers.

Such a lightweight keyboard!  Punches above its weight? ;)

[CyberGene]

As a color blind person (I have protanomaly) I realize that I have big difficulties in distinguishing between the yellow and green colors of parts A and C. Luckily the colors can be changed (the rose works for me) but that is a per-live-set setting and not a global one, so I have to update all live sets one by one 😕 I will report that to the IdeaScale, hopefully they can provide an option for global part color override.
 

It’s also a bit strange that delay and reverb send level is the same for all parts. 
 

Other than these two small niggles it’s a really nice keyboard, I love it. 

[drawback]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

I will report that to the IdeaScale, hopefully they can provide an option for global part color override.
 

Please put in a request that they be dimmable too!