Poll: Subscription vs. Ownership

[Bill Heins]

I found this to compare Photoshop and Photoshop Elements- https://www.educba.com/photoshop-vs-photoshop-elements/

 

...Some of the features of Photoshop that are not included in Photoshop Elements are actions, advanced text formatting, pen tool, advanced color management, lens blur filter, smart objects and many more.

 

I use Photoshop for art more than photos

 

Bill

[RABid]

On 8/5/2022 at 7:21 PM, Anderton said:

Then there are the subscription services that aren't billed as such, like when you had to buy tape for a tape machine on a periodic basis. That was a very expensive subscription!

There are also sneaky ones, like printer companies that put chips in their printer cartridges that time out after a pre-determined period. Very bad for people like me that print maybe twice a year. The chip has a second purpose, adding a digital component to the cartridge that is protected by the digital rights act, thus preventing unauthorized third party cartridges.

[Bill Heins]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

There are also sneaky ones, like printer companies that put chips in their printer cartridges that time out after a pre-determined period. Very bad for people like me that print maybe twice a year. The chip has a second purpose, adding a digital component to the cartridge that is protected by the digital rights act, thus preventing unauthorized third party cartridges.

Our industrial printers at work have two cartridges, ink and makeup fluid. Both are barcoded with a date....the printer will not run with a cartridge out of date, you just have to suck up the loss!

 

Bill

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, RABid said:

There are also sneaky ones, like printer companies that put chips in their printer cartridges that time out after a pre-determined period. Very bad for people like me that print maybe twice a year. The chip has a second purpose, adding a digital component to the cartridge that is protected by the digital rights act, thus preventing unauthorized third party cartridges.

Since I don't print much either and mostly just black toner will do, I go a couple of places locally that print and get things done there. 
I'm certain it's cheaper in the long run since I don't print much or often. 

 

One less contraption to deal with is how I look at it. 

[KuruPrionz]

2 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

I found this to compare Photoshop and Photoshop Elements- https://www.educba.com/photoshop-vs-photoshop-elements/

 

...Some of the features of Photoshop that are not included in Photoshop Elements are actions, advanced text formatting, pen tool, advanced color management, lens blur filter, smart objects and many more.

 

I use Photoshop for art more than photos

 

Bill

Advanced color management is mostly CMYK and I don't need it at all, almost nobody does anymore. I have other programs that can take care of advanced text formatting.

Pen Tool? A Wacom tablet is MUCH better and not much money. Have you tried Corel Painter? That's an amazing tool for art, Photoshop doesn't come close to those features and never will. It's in the title "Photo"shop. Painter is exactly as the title describes, oils, pastels, inks, water color, it's all there. And you can use or abuse photos if you like, truly no comparison. 

 

Do what ya do, it's all good. If it's about art I can highly recommend the Wacom/Painter combination. I have them but have been more engaged in music, plus I really prefer pencil on paper or other completely analog media. 

[Bill Heins]

I have Painter, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, Luminar AI etc. I've been using Photoshop for years and I'm just used to the workflow...a drawing tablet is somewhere in my future...I like the Cintiq...just not the price!

 

Bill

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, Bill Heins said:

I have Painter, Photoshop, Affinity Photo, Luminar AI etc. I've been using Photoshop for years and I'm just used to the workflow...a drawing tablet is somewhere in my future...I like the Cintiq...just not the price!

 

Bill

Yeah, I'm really used to Photoshop too, started in 1992 with version 1.07 and lab assisted at the college as it evolved. Then I got jobs in graphics and printing and the companies I worked for needed to stay current. CS2 was the last version I used before switching to Elements and I haven't felt restricted by it. 

I'd love a Cintiq but you're right, they are not cheap. I used Painter for a while and then I went back to all analog for my art since it's a hobby/obsession rather than a career.

These days it's mostly guitar and recording (which is definitely digital).

[Bill Heins]

Music is my main passion as well

 

Bill

[Notes_Norton]

I have a business writing user styles and fake book arrangements for Band-in-a-Box.

 

My update policy is; Free updates for as long as I'm in business, and I've been in this business over 30 years.

 

BiaB has changed the way the style picker works, so I'm updating all the user styles with the new data and when I'm done, I'll send an e-mail out to every one on my mailing list and post it on the BiaB forum. The update will be free.

 

We are also updating the style choices for my best-selling fake e-disk, which was done in the 1990s. There have been so many new styles created by both PG Music (Band-in-a-Box) and Norton Music (us) that the songs will be much better sounding now. The update will be free.

 

I stay in business by writing new style e-disks and fake e-disks. My customers appreciate the updates and when I issue an update, many of them buy new products from me.

 

When it comes to customer relations, I have one rule: Treat the customers the way I would want to be treated if I were the customer. It seems my customers appreciate that.

 

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

 

[Notes_Norton]

BTW, I treat our customers in my duo, The Sophisticats the same way. It pays off. In the summer, when most of our competition is getting 4 or 5 gigs per month, we have 18 this month and 17 so far next month.

 

I play the music the audience wants, when they want it, I skip breaks when the dance floor is busy, we are easy to work with, and everything we do is aimed at making the entertainment purchaser's life and goals easier.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Anderton]

On 8/6/2022 at 8:21 PM, Bill Heins said:

Our industrial printers at work have two cartridges, ink and makeup fluid. Both are barcoded with a date....the printer will not run with a cartridge out of date, you just have to suck up the loss!

 

I did not know that! But is there some actual rationale, like the ink loses viscosity, and could gum up your printer heads?

[bill5]

  

On 8/5/2022 at 8:31 AM, Notes_Norton said:

The textile industry invented fashion so that people would throw away perfectly good clothes to get the latest fashion, and that kept the mills running and the money coming in.

 

Nah. People invented fashion long before the textile industry came along. They just took advantage of it. 

 

Every time this topic comes up, I just scratch my head. Why someone would want to keep paying for something over and over forever vs just buying it and being done with it I can't imagine. The poll says "Let's assume there is *zero* financial difference between the two options," but that's an invalid assumption and easily the best reason to choose owning. The exception is if there's a pricey piece of software and you're not sure if you'd like it, so you subscribe for a month or two to find out. Otherwise, it makes no financial sense IMO. 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

  Why someone would want to keep paying for something over and over forever vs just buying it and being done with it I can't imagine.

 

The best part about subscriptions is you don't necessarily have to buy something over and over again. Suppose you're doing a project with a person who uses a lot of Steven Slate plug-ins, but you don't use them at all. So you subscribe for long enough to finish the project with the Slate plug-ins, then drop the subscription. Several years ago I was collaborating on a project with someone who was super into Pro Tools. I had an older, perfectly useable version, but it didn't have the same bundled plug-ins. It would have been great to just pay for his version for a couple months. Instead, I had to try and replicate his EQ and dynamics settings with the plug-ins I normally used.

 

1 hour ago, bill5 said:

The poll says "Let's assume there is *zero* financial difference between the two options," but that's an invalid assumption and easily the best reason to choose owning.

 

For someone who doesn't update a program, that's true. But there are people who pay to update to the next version when it appears. I've done the math on a few programs and typically, buying an update every time it happens (version 1 to version 2, version 2 to version 3, etc.) can end up costing the same as or even more than subscribing. 

 

The other issue is that software is, for better or worse, in a state of flux - Apple and Microsoft pretty much make sure of that. And then there are the bug fixes, new features,  and such. Those with semi-consistent setups don't have to worry about that stuff, but others do. 

 

As far as I can tell from anecdotal discussions with various companies, those that offer both options - buy or subscribe - have the best response from consumers. People like choices. 

[bill5]

3 minutes ago, Anderton said:

The best part about subscriptions is you don't necessarily have to buy something over and over again. Suppose you're doing a project with a person who uses a lot of Steven Slate plug-ins, but you don't use them at all. So you subscribe for long enough to finish the project with the Slate plug-ins, then drop the subscription. Several years ago I was collaborating on a project with someone who was super into Pro Tools. I had an older, perfectly useable version, but it didn't have the same bundled plug-ins. It would have been great to just pay for his version for a couple months. Instead, I had to try and replicate his EQ and dynamics settings with the plug-ins I normally used.

Yep as I mentioned above, a very short-term situation I can see could be useful. But there are people paying for things over and over indefinitely, which makes no sense to me.

 

Quote

 

For someone who doesn't update a program, that's true. But there are people who pay to update to the next version when it appears. I've done the math on a few programs and typically, buying an update every time it happens (version 1 to version 2, version 2 to version 3, etc.) can end up costing the same as or even more than subscribing. 

 

The other issue is that software is, for better or worse, in a state of flux - Apple and Microsoft pretty much make sure of that. And then there are the bug fixes, new features,  and such. Those with semi-consistent setups don't have to worry about that stuff, but others do. 

The answer probably varies, but overall I think this is the exception, not the rule. Most companies will come out with bug fix patches and other minor updates for free; it's only when they release a major new version that it costs. Fortunately, most plugin companies aren't the POSs that companies like Microsoft and Avid are.

 

 

[Geoff Grace]

On 8/4/2022 at 5:32 AM, Notes_Norton said:

I understand why companies go to the subscription mode, it means constant cash flow.

 

I understand why I prefer ownership, it's my choice when and how to spend my money. Having a subscription is akin to being in debt.

 

Being a professional musician, my income is irregular. Right now I'm doing 18 gigs this month, but in the 2 years of the plague, I did zero gigs.

 

Before COVID we did a lot of work in the winter tourist season, and very little work in the summer. This year we are as busy in the summer as we usually are in the season.

 

What I don't need is a bunch of subscriptions during lean times. With outright ownership, I can choose to spend my money when times are good.

 

I subscribe to my ISP, my web host, and the shopping cart on my website. That's it.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

My perspective is very similar. Here's what I posted on the topic elsewhere on the Internet:

 

As a professional musician, I've experienced cycles of feast and famine in the music industry. The next time famine hits, I don't want to be dependent on a subscription I can no longer afford to make music that will raise my income. Any interruption in service would disrupt my ability to earn a living.

The traditional model of buying licenses makes more sense in my experience, because when hard times come, I still own everything I paid for and can use it as long as I have housing and electricity; and housing and electricity is more affordable than housing, electricity, and multiple subscriptions.

I'm not trying to talk other people out of subscriptions, of course. If I were a hobbyist, for example, I might prefer to spend a little at a time to gain access to a lot of titles each month. If hard times hit, I could interrupt my hobby until better times followed. That stoppage wouldn't prevent me from earning a living. In fact, it might reduce the distractions from me finding new work.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Geoff Grace]

On 8/4/2022 at 6:52 AM, dmitch57 said:

I'd prefer an option which is not on the list: Craig's hypothetical model where you still have a read-only version of your projects when you stop paying for a subscription.

 

Tracking basically accomplishes this result, doesn't it; or am I missing something?

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Anderton]

57 minutes ago, Geoff Grace said:

The traditional model of buying licenses makes more sense in my experience, because when hard times come, I still own everything I paid for and can use it as long as I have housing and electricity

 

...and your hard drive doesn't crash, or your operating system changes, because you can't re-install the program without connecting to the company's server - even if you recall a disk image. Of course, that happens with a subscription too. In this case the advantage with owned software is that you will likely be able to keep the owned version going longer than the subscription, so you can at least have some time to prepare for the eventuality of the program becoming unuseable. Just be aware that ownership can give a false sense of security. 

 

For this reason, I think that when a company goes out of business and leaves behind orphaned software, they have a moral obligation to release the source code if they can't get another company to pick up the program.

[Anderton]

46 minutes ago, Geoff Grace said:

Tracking basically accomplishes this result, doesn't it; or am I missing something?

 

I'm not sure I understand. When a subscription runs out, in most cases you lose access to the program. What I'd want to see is that you can still access the program and load projects for playback, but in fairness to the company, you couldn't record new material.

[Anderton]

I'm kind of surprised more people didn't choose "Being able to choose one option, but switch to the other one without a penalty, if my circumstances changed." I think that's what companies have in mind when they offer a choice.

[Geoff Grace]

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

...and your hard drive doesn't crash, or your operating system changes, because you can't re-install the program without connecting to the company's server - even if you recall a disk image. Of course, that happens with a subscription too. In this case the advantage with owned software is that you will likely be able to keep the owned version going longer than the subscription, so you can at least have some time to prepare for the eventuality of the program becoming unuseable. Just be aware that ownership can give a false sense of security. 

 

For this reason, I think that when a company goes out of business and leaves behind orphaned software, they have a moral obligation to release the source code if they can't get another company to pick up the program.

 

I understand that nothing lasts forever, but—barring a catastrophe—the odds of those things happening at the moment when I run out of money to pay for a subscription are low. The thing I'm trying to accomplish is to create continuity to make sure I can make income with music during the lean times. Any licenses that I own will continue to be valid the day after my money runs out.

 

In contrast, any subscriptions will stop working on the day I can't pay for them; and if I were to depend on them, I would no longer be able to work either.

 

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

I'm not sure I understand. When a subscription runs out, in most cases you lose access to the program. What I'd want to see is that you can still access the program and load projects for playback, but in fairness to the company, you couldn't record new material.

 

I'm thinking of the following from the excellent article you wrote back in 2003:

 

"The key to ironclad backup is not to save complete projects, even in a 'universal' format like OMF, but to save each track of a project individually. A WAV or AIFF file will likely be readable by the DAWs of tomorrow, even if you need to import each track one at a time. 

 

Let's start with soft synths. If you're using any in your projects, bounce the audio output to a hard disk track. Make sure this track, like all other tracks you export, extends for the entire length of the song (or at least, from the very beginning to past the point where the instrument stops playing). All tracks must have a common starting point so you can time-align them when you import them into a DAW. 

 

As to tracks with signal processing plug-ins, do one bounce without plug-ins, and one with. That way, if you upgrade your plug-ins someday, you can use them but still have your old track for comparison. If there are a lot of automation moves on a track, consider bouncing versions with and without automation."

 

More here:

 

I believe that these practical steps would create a "read-only" version of projects, regardless of subscription status.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Notes_Norton]

My TX81z, MT32, SC55 and other ancient synth modules still work fine. I still use many of the sounds. A subscription would have cost me a fortune by now.

 

I suspect my newer synths and the 5pin DIN will be working for years to come.

 

My 1925 King Alto Sax, which is older than me, still plays fine and has the voice of an angel. The tenor sax I had custom-made for me still works, too. Every few years they need pads replaced, and reeds don't last all that long, but my saxes have long since paid for themselves.

 

I haven't had a car payment in over 5 years. If I leased (subscription) I would never be free. Mrs. Notes' 1978 Jeep CJ5 that she bought brand-new is still running. She hasn't had a car payment since 1983.

 

My mortgage is paid off. If I rented (subscription) I would have had to pay rent during the 2 years of pandemic when nobody was hiring musicians.

 

I have thousands of LPs and CDs, and I've put over 10,000 cuts on my digital Walkman. For new songs that aren't available on physical media, I buy, download, and burn to disc, with a backup stored somewhere (If I can only find where)

 

I still have MS Office that I think I bought during the Win95 or Win98 days. Got a new computer, put the CDs in my USB/DVD drive, and I'm off and running. For my minimal needs, Word, Publisher, and Access have more features than I'll ever need or use.

 

Master Tracks Pro still works with Win 11. I think I bought the latest update in 2004. It's been orphaned and someday will probably no longer function, so I'll have to really learn how to use Cakewalk or another. But there is hope for me yet. https://passportmusic.com/

 

As I mentioned before, I don't have a steady income. I'm working like crazy now with 15-18 gigs per month (in the off-season), but for the two COVID years, I had zero gigs. I didn't have to dig into my saving account, but if I had a number of subscriptions to pay monthly, I would have definitely had to withdraw from my savings.

 

So for me, I'll only subscribe to something if I really-really need it and can't get it any other way. YMMV

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

[Anderton]

8 hours ago, Geoff Grace said:

I'm thinking of the following from the excellent article you wrote back in 2003: [snip]

 

I believe that these practical steps would create a "read-only" version of projects, regardless of subscription status.

 

Yes, it would. However, at least in my case, after working with a program for 10 or 20 years I accumulate a lot of bits and pieces that never become full songs. So they're backed up, but not as individual audio tracks. To do so would be very time and storage-consuming.  A "read-only" version would allow for doing archaeology  

[Anderton]

Ultimately, though, it all depends on what's going to satisfy the customer, which is why many companies offer both options. Like most of the people in this thread, I generally prefer ownership. But there are a couple exceptions where I feel a subscription offers me more for less. 

 

More importantly, there is no "one-size-fits-all" subscription model. If the model is basically extortion - pay us, or we take your program away - who wants that? But if the subscription model fills your needs better than ownership, that's a different story.

 

The best example I can think of is PreSonus Sphere, which is clearly designed for those getting into recording as opposed to their pay-and-own option. If you're just starting out, $15 a month gives you access to the top version of Studio One, all the optional plug-ins, associated software, sample libraries, cloud storage, collaboration tools (which are really good) for working with other Sphere members, and exclusive tutorials and videos. The cost of buying all that upfront would be prohibitive. I haven't done the math, but I think it would be about the same as subscribing for 4 or 5 years. 

 

PreSonus is having a lot of success with Sphere, because basically, it offers more for less. And there's a self-serving element, too...if someone is just starting out, they'll need an interface, and the PreSonus ones are integrated really well with the software. So it's more like a magazine subscription - you get new stuff all the time, and it saves money compared to buying single issues. 

 

I wrote an article called The Subscription Kerfuffle for Mixonline, and concluded with "Let’s see which companies give you the most in return for your having faith in their ability to deliver on their promises. The companies that end up being the most successful will be the ones that make you happy you’ve subscribed."  I think there are subscription models that can make that happen, but whether the majority of companies implement them or not remains to be seen.