Having trouble picking a digital mixer....

[jeffincltnc]

I'm having a hard time making a final selection for a digital mixer to mix on iPad.

 

My uses:

- Connect my home keyboards and add-ons.  Ideally to get between 16-20 inputs at time (1/4" instruments in)

- Live gig mixer for small bands of 3-4 people that is portable and lets me go out front and do some mixing on the iPad.

- IEM mixes for 3-4 piece band

- Recording interface maybe.  Not that important, but nice to have.

 

The candidates (in no particular order, they alphabetical here):

 

- Allen & Heath QuSB (18 ins, 10 AUX outs, expandable to 32 channels)

- Behringer XR18 (18 ins, 6 AUX outs)

- Presonus 24R (24 in, 12 AUX outs, 40 channel mixer expandable)

- Soundcraft UI24 (10 combo ins, 10 XLR ins, RCA in - really?, 8 Aux outputs)

 

Each option would also have a rackmount case, a dedicated wi-fi router and a Furman power conditioner in the rack).

The Soundcraft would also have an 8 channel DI box mounted just to deal with the shortage of 1/4" inputs, so that would be a 6U case instead of a 4U case with all of the spaghetting cables.

 

I own the XR18 now.  It's new in the box and nobody can find them anywhere.  But I haven't opened it yet.  I could sell it in all of 10 minutes on Reverb for retail as long as I am not gouging people on the price.  It's also a lot cheaper than the others, so I would have money to buy myself an Xtouch Compact surface with motorized faders and have small tactile control on this as an alternativie to the iPad.  Normally I really don't care for Behringer, but the XAir stuff is good.  I would have ordered a Midas MR18 instead but they are nowhere to be found.

 

Looks like there are pros and cons for all of these.

 

- Allen & Heath has great preamps, but is iPad only (no Android, no connected client)

- Behringer XR18 is cheap and allows the XTouch Compact control via MIDI and they have an affordable headphone mix distributor available for the IEMs.

- Presonus 24R checks all the boxes, a little pricier than the others but in the budget.  Not sure about the UC software vs. the other options being easier/harder.

- Soundcraft might have the most bang for the buck here.  I wish those 10 XLRs were combo jacks and the RCA ins were 1/4".  It is browser based with no app and can connect directly to iPad, Android, PC, Mac, etc. and is probably more future proof than having an app.

 

My criteria:

 

- Easy to use

- Sounds good, good preamps

- Good effects - just some good reverb, compressor, delay stuff is probably all I need for small gigs.

- Build quality and reliability - I assume they are all pretty good here

 

There's a lot of others than I've eliminated or aren't available due to supply issues -- can't get an MR18 or a Mackie DL32S, because they don't exist, so it does me no good to be recommended something that isn't attainable.  Everything on this list is attainable, in my budget checks various boxes.

 

Would love to hear from others who have made this same decision, which you gig with, recommend or don't recommend.  All of these products are good at what they do, though.

[miden]

Don't forget the Behringer Flow 8   It gives you four USB channels ( or two stereo channels) ... no multiple IEMs though.

 

https://www.behringer.com/behringer/product?modelCode=P0DNM

[NewImprov]

I have direct experience with both the A&H and the Behringer, and, if choosing between the 2, I would definitely get the A&H. It sounds fantastic. The live sound company I work for uses a bunch of A&H mixers, both the Qu and SQ series, and have had virtually no issues with them. 
 

We installed a few XR-18’s in venues, and had a number of issues with them, the built-in wi-fi is unreliable, and just had issues with them breaking down, freezing, etc.

 

I personally find the A&H interfaces more intuitive, but that may be an issue of having spent more time working with them. 

[jeffincltnc]

11 minutes ago, miden said:

Don't forget the Behringer Flow 8   It gives you four USB channels ( or two stereo channels) ... no multiple IEMs though.

 

https://www.behringer.com/behringer/product?modelCode=P0DNM

Not relevant to what I am describing here.

[jeffincltnc]

9 minutes ago, NewImprov said:

 

We installed a few XR-18’s in venues, and had a number of issues with them, the built-in wi-fi is unreliable, and just had issues with them breaking down, freezing, etc.

Yes, the built in wi fi on the Behringer is known to be useless and whatever I go with, I will have a dedicated external router for mixing.

[cphollis]

A few potentially relevant thoughts?

 

I have been a happy XR18 user for several years, and -- yes -- it's quite good kit.  I am not familiar with the others as much.  XR18s are everywhere here locally, and lots of folks know how to operate them.   My thoughts on the XR18 is that is works as advertised, the ethernet headphone mixers work great with the powered hub, and it sounds good enough for what we're doing.  Mine will be acting as a keyboard mixer for three boards in the near future.

 

That being said, I went next-level with the X32 Rack, and that's been even better.  The primary motivation is playing larger gigs where the sound person is likely to have an X32, and my Rack becomes a stage box with a simple connection.  Also, the digital snake stuff is nice for miking a drummer, as an example.  I would also point to the effects rack on the X32 being much more usable, there multiple internal mix busses, extremely flexible routing, etc.  The app software is more powerful, there are great presets available from third parties, and so on.  For me, it was a big step up for not much additional $$ and thus was subject to the Buy Once, Cry Once maxim.

 

Mine is mounted in a rack w/wifi, ethernet hub for headphone mixers, labeled pigtail snakes for easy access, a Furman strip and power adaptors for everything.  There's a drawer for the laptop and accessories.   It has made getting into and out of a gig just that much easier, and was a worthwhile project.  For wifi mixing, the X32 app is more powerful than its XR sibling.  Both benefit from using the laptop app to set things up.

 

From what I know of the other products, they all appear to do the basic stuff and I am sure they have many happy customers.  That being said, the Behringer stuff is everywhere and it doesn't hurt being mainstream.  So no bad choices, really.

[jeffincltnc]

Chuck, how are you connecting your Nord line outs to the XLRs on the X32, though?  I have a preference for combo inputs for all of my keyboards instead of XLR.  I will get an 8 channel DI box if I get the Soundcraft, I guess.  I have good 1/4" cables for all of my keyboards and I really don't want to re-engineer everything for XLR everything, which is what the X32 inputs are.  Do you use adapters or are you doing something more scientific there?

[jeffincltnc]

Also, as ubiquitous as X32s are, all of the new prices are going through the roof given their supply shortages.  The one advantage of that XR18 box is not just the combo inputs for my 1/4" jacks, it's that I actually own one that is new in the box and sitting there waiting for me to decide if I want to keep it.

[cphollis]

1 hour ago, jeffinpghpa said:

Also, as ubiquitous as X32s are, all of the new prices are going through the roof given their supply shortages.  The one advantage of that XR18 box is not just the combo inputs for my 1/4" jacks, it's that I actually own one that is new in the box and sitting there waiting for me to decide if I want to keep it.

 

A bird in the hand, etc.  I get it!  I would, as my XR18 has turned out to do well in many situations.  I'm not sure the other choices are significantly better.

 

1 hour ago, jeffinpghpa said:

Chuck, how are you connecting your Nord line outs to the XLRs on the X32, though?  I have a preference for combo inputs for all of my keyboards instead of XLR.  I will get an 8 channel DI box if I get the Soundcraft, I guess.  I have good 1/4" cables for all of my keyboards and I really don't want to re-engineer everything for XLR everything, which is what the X32 inputs are.  Do you use adapters or are you doing something more scientific there?

 

Nothing special, really.  My NS3C produces stereo out to a JDI duplex that I've had for ages.  When I go three board, I'll use the XR18 to mix and use the 6 auxes to feed the FOH via XLR.   As far as "re-engineering for XLR", as band sound guy I found I was the only one with any interest in 1/4" inputs.  Everyone else had XLRs, either directly or via a DI box.  I was the odd one out

[KuruPrionz]

3 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

I'm having a hard time making a final selection for a digital mixer to mix on iPad.

 

My uses:

- Connect my home keyboards and add-ons.  Ideally to get between 16-20 inputs at time (1/4" instruments in)

- Live gig mixer for small bands of 3-4 people that is portable and lets me go out front and do some mixing on the iPad.

- IEM mixes for 3-4 piece band

- Recording interface maybe.  Not that important, but nice to have.

 

The candidates (in no particular order, they alphabetical here):

 

- Allen & Heath QuSB (18 ins, 10 AUX outs, expandable to 32 channels)

- Behringer XR18 (18 ins, 6 AUX outs)

- Presonus 24R (24 in, 12 AUX outs, 40 channel mixer expandable)

- Soundcraft UI24 (10 combo ins, 10 XLR ins, RCA in - really?, 8 Aux outputs)

 

Each option would also have a rackmount case, a dedicated wi-fi router and a Furman power conditioner in the rack).

The Soundcraft would also have an 8 channel DI box mounted just to deal with the shortage of 1/4" inputs, so that would be a 6U case instead of a 4U case with all of the spaghetting cables.

 

I own the XR18 now.  It's new in the box and nobody can find them anywhere.  But I haven't opened it yet.  I could sell it in all of 10 minutes on Reverb for retail as long as I am not gouging people on the price.  It's also a lot cheaper than the others, so I would have money to buy myself an Xtouch Compact surface with motorized faders and have small tactile control on this as an alternativie to the iPad.  Normally I really don't care for Behringer, but the XAir stuff is good.  I would have ordered a Midas MR18 instead but they are nowhere to be found.

 

Looks like there are pros and cons for all of these.

 

- Allen & Heath has great preamps, but is iPad only (no Android, no connected client)

- Behringer XR18 is cheap and allows the XTouch Compact control via MIDI and they have an affordable headphone mix distributor available for the IEMs.

- Presonus 24R checks all the boxes, a little pricier than the others but in the budget.  Not sure about the UC software vs. the other options being easier/harder.

- Soundcraft might have the most bang for the buck here.  I wish those 10 XLRs were combo jacks and the RCA ins were 1/4".  It is browser based with no app and can connect directly to iPad, Android, PC, Mac, etc. and is probably more future proof than having an app.

 

My criteria:

 

- Easy to use

- Sounds good, good preamps

- Good effects - just some good reverb, compressor, delay stuff is probably all I need for small gigs.

- Build quality and reliability - I assume they are all pretty good here

 

There's a lot of others than I've eliminated or aren't available due to supply issues -- can't get an MR18 or a Mackie DL32S, because they don't exist, so it does me no good to be recommended something that isn't attainable.  Everything on this list is attainable, in my budget checks various boxes.

 

Would love to hear from others who have made this same decision, which you gig with, recommend or don't recommend.  All of these products are good at what they do, though.

I have UC for a Presonus Quantum TB. It's very straightforward, I was using it easily right off the bat. The preamps are good and so are the line ins. 

If it ticks all your boxes then it's a good choice. 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I use the ViSi Listen and main controller app with my church's large Soundcraft board, and that thing is awesome. Not sure how the iPad interface compares to the browser-based system you describe for this particular Soundcraft model.

[Tom Williams]

There might be better, but the XR18 is darned good.  18 channels both directions for USB recording with a PC (no native recording though); you can do individual mono IEMs with the aux outputs, or go to town with PM16 individual monitor mixers that can pan any of 16 channels to any position in addition to volume, tone, and limiter.  The preamps are "Midas designed" -- and then Behringer low-bid implemented.  That said, I have had no problems running e-percussion, dynamic mics, condenser mics, passive acoustic guitars, Kurzweil keyboards, and Reaper-over-USB sources into my "cheap" Behringer preamps.

 

XR18 effects are the same as the X32, but with different allocation -- XR18 has built-in output EQ that doesn't use an effects channel, saving effects for other uses.

The lousy Wi-Fi for distances beyond a few feet, is a known attribute, but a $30 access point velcroed to the top solves that problem.

 

If you need better preamps, there is also the Midas-built MR18, which uses Real Midas Preamps, and is otherwise identical.

 

With the (IMO trivial) exception of the crappy built-in access point, I have seen few or no complaints about the XR18.

 

Disclaimer: My band has an X32 Rack, and my church uses two X32 mixing boards, and I own both an XR18 and an XR12, so I may be a wee bit biased.

[D. Gauss]

IMO, Allen and health all the way.  Great pres, easy work flow. sounds super.  I have the Qu-pac which, if you have a tablet, is all there and saves a ton of space.  FWIW, OP is mistaken about IPAD only.  You want/need the "mixing station" pro app that is cross platform (ipad/android), and waay better than the A&H app. (see link below) The app also works for the x32 and others as well. truly wonderful. Stick a usb stick in the A&H, and you can record 18 tracks of 24 bit multi track with no computer.  If you have a computer, the audio interface works great, too.

 

 

android app here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=davidgiga1993&hl=en_US&gl=US

 

ios app here: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/mixing-station/id1438352631

[miden]

3 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

Also, as ubiquitous as X32s are, all of the new prices are going through the roof given their supply shortages.  The one advantage of that XR18 box is not just the combo inputs for my 1/4" jacks, it's that I actually own one that is new in the box and sitting there waiting for me to decide if I want to keep it.

 

 

You should stick with it - I had one in a rack for about 18 months (using a dedicated router - about the only tip I'd give you) with no issues. The two band projects I was using it for folded so I had no more use for it....I use the Flow 8 just for solo stuff...sorry I misunderstood your OP

[Garubi]

9 hours ago, cphollis said:

A few potentially relevant thoughts?

 

I have been a happy XR18 user for several years, and -- yes -- it's quite good kit.  I am not familiar with the others as much.  XR18s are everywhere here locally, and lots of folks know how to operate them.   My thoughts on the XR18 is that is works as advertised, the ethernet headphone mixers work great with the powered hub, and it sounds good enough for what we're doing.  Mine will be acting as a keyboard mixer for three boards in the near future.

 

[...]

 

From what I know of the other products, they all appear to do the basic stuff and I am sure they have many happy customers.  That being said, the Behringer stuff is everywhere and it doesn't hurt being mainstream.  So no bad choices, really.

We are gigging with XR-18 since 2018 and we never had a single problem.

I remember when we bought it we feared the wi-fi connection because so many posts mentioned it, but we really never had a single problem with it. Probably because, thanks to its "stage box" form factor, we keep it on the stage or near it.

 

I also have to say that the IPad app is better from an usability point of vview, than the Android one (but we use the Android one, so it's definitively usable and reliable).

 

Speaking of apps, each of us uses the XAirQ app that's specifically made to control one aux send: so we can control our monitor levels in real time during the show.

I never used the other mixers that you mention, but this for sure is great bang for bucks 

[erik_nie]

We had a Yamaha 01v96 mixer on stage for FOH & monitor in-ear, but want to move into something lighter and an option to quickly mix from the center during soundcheck. I had an XR18 that we tried, but we could not get a coherent mix. tried this 2 times during rehearsals. But the main out and the monitor mixes did sound as clear/coherent as the Yamaha. The individual sounds seems so interact and made a mess out of the total mix.
Then I read this happend to others with a X32/XR18 Behringer. I found a MR18 and transfered the project. The feeling of the Yamaha was back and no issues with coherency.

 

Perhaps it was just in our minds, but everybody in the band noticed the difference and it was pretty big from uncomfortable to nice and relaxed. No clue why.

What I would do in your case is: learn and use the XR18, if you are happy with the result, stick to it and if you see a MR18 available: get it and transfer the project. 
The flexibility of both mixers is great and can do what you have in mind. The MR18 is just cleaner in our situation.

[counterpoint]

Bought the Presonus Series III 24r about a month ago.  Capabilities are incredible but there is a learning curve.  Used it at a gig weekend before last.  Thought I had it all set up but it wouldn't work at first...no input signals.  Finally figured out inputs had all been switched to "digital" from "analog" somehow in UC...some very nervous moments but worked through it and it was great for the gig.  All five of us had stereo in-ear monitors under our own control (and room for one more...or up to 12 mono of course) and people said the FOH sounded great.  Was a piece of cake to label all the channels in UC and assign a Presonus "Fat Channel" to each input preset for that instrument.  Also made a track-by-track recording of the gig on Capture with just a couple of clicks and am working through editing it all in Studio One...and it automatically carried over all the channel assignments...lots of fun.  For those of you doing backing tracks (we're not there yet), it's great because even though there are only 24 inputs, you can feed backing tracks and click to channels 25 - 32 in UC from your computer and not use up any inputs.  Still a learning curve but that will always be the case with equipment with those kinds of capabilities.

[Stokely]

My band has used a few over the years.  Most recently a QSC Touchmix and  Behringer XR18.  I prefer the QSC but it costs quite a bit more so that's probably to be expected.  We actually use the XR18 simply because the bandleader likes the rack form factor.  I like the ability of the QSC to have stereo monitor mixes for everyone, that's a great thing to have live (if using IEMs).   Flip side, the Behringer has the P16m monitor mixer that you can connect up via ultranet (ethernet) which would give all the players their own hardware mixer.  Caveat that I had an issue with my first one, Sweetwater sent me a new one and it's also acting up a bit (master volume louder on one side), but I haven't ruled out a setting on this new one yet.   If they work, they are a great companion for the XR18

If using the XR18 the concern would be, what if the wifi tablet control fails.  Some people bring a laptop for this reason.  The QSC has a touchscreen so you wouldn't need that.    Another point, if you want to record your shows, the XR18 makes you use a laptop running software, while the QSC (and others) just make you connect up a hard drive.

[jeffincltnc]

Thanks, many of the suggestions here, I've either decided are not for me, or are recommendations for things that are not attainable and not for sale anywhere (like the MR18 - they aren't being made, there aren't any listed on Reverb or eBay or Amazon either, and even though it has a 10 year warranty, it doesn't transfer to a new owner when a used one is sold).   I'd also get the Mackie DL32S -- if you could actually get one, which you can't.

[kenheeter]

I have an XR18 in my studio and an XR12 for live performance.  Both are great. Highly recommended.

[Zalman Stern]

I've used the MR18 (Midas version of the XR18) with an XTouch extensively, as well as the Allen and Heath Qu-16. Also quite familiar with a number of audio interface products that offer highly capable digital mixing, particularly the MOTU AVB line.

 

First off, almost all of these systems offer a demo mode in their tablet or web control control application. (May be iPad only.) This is very useful both for evaluating the tablet usability and the features of the mixing system. (E.g. the Soundcraft Ui demo is here https://www.soundcraft.com/ui-demo/mixer.html .) Generally one can connect with as many tablets as one wants and even if there is a physical control surface, it can be very useful to allow more than one person to have control at a time. Soundcraft and MOTU do their UI via a web app which means any browser equipped device can control the mixer. This is very flexible and somewhat more future proof, but it is hard to build a really world class live mixing interface in-browser. (I gather Soundcraft has done better at it than MOTU. MOTU's web UI is good for studio work, but having tried it for live mixing, I would not do it again.) 

 

Allen and Heath is certainly a little nicer than the Behringer stuff, but so far as I know they do not offer a separate control surface from the mixer head. One can get a digital snake to expand the Qu line, but that's another significant chunk of money on top of the already relatively pricey mixer and probably more channels than you need. An MR18/XR18 setup with the Xtouch control surface allows having the mixer on stage and running an ethernet cable between the Xtouch and the mixer. This eliminates a snake from the picture and is a huge win. (The Xtouch Compact does not have ethernet. One can likely get enough length with MIDI cables instead. I believe there's a bit more mixer control with the Xtouch and the ethernet based protocol, but it probably doesn't matter. You'll need a hub to do the ethernet thing, but as mentioned, an external WiFi router is probably a good idea anyway.)

 

If using the Behringer personal mixer units, you'll have to run the system at 48kHz sampling rate. No big deal but I did not see this documented anywhere and could not get it to work at 44.1kHz.

 

You do not need a DI to convert 1/4 inch TRS to XLR unless it is an instrument to line input. Many units provide some number of instrument inputs, thus handling even that use case. Though more professional equipment often does not provide built-in instrument handling on the assumption that studios have DIs handy anyway. My recollection is the XR18 provides two instrument inputs and the MR18 does not provide any, but I may be wrong. (All the inputs on the MR18 are the same. The first two on the XR18 are instrument for TRS. What I can't recall is if the MR18 has some sort of autobridging for high impedance sources. My guess is no.)

 

If it is just a connector conversion, a TRS to XLR cable, a TRS to XLR adapter, or a connector only patch panel will do the job. (As is demonstrated over in the DI thread, there are a lot of misconceptions about this topic. The main one is that "DI" names a single type of device and that this single device handles all jobs. In reality there is more than one type of DI and many jobs one might use one or another of them for. Don't really want to get into it, but the main take away is that if a piece of electronics is not serving some needed purpose, not having it is your best bet.)

 

Personally unless reliability is really paramount, like for a touring band, I'd just use the XR18 and try and get an Xtouch and a P16-M or three to go with it. Really my only complaint with the Midas version is there's no way to bind two of them together into a 32 channel unit. (In the ideal world, digital mixers and control surfaces would use standard protocols and one would be able to mix and match to build more capable systems out of components. This sort of exists up at the high end, but it's generally pretty proprietary within a single vendor like Avid or Yamaha, etc. My guess is at some point Behringer will revamp their line in this direction. I doubt anyone else is going to push on commoditizing the business even if it would make for a lot more sales. MOTU is in the ballpark, but kinda shooting at a different use case and doesn't have a physical control surface at all.)

 

One of my biggest issues with both the Allen and Heath and Midas products is they have support for saving settings in scenes, shows, presets, etc. but none of it really seems to work very well in practice. And in Behringer's case, they do not document what is saved with which type of thing. I've tried a couple times to preflight all the setup for a show and save it and it never works quite right.

 

-Z-

[B4i]

Used an XR18 with two bands now. Just works. Form factor useful for typical pub band. The XR18 is rack mounted and we place it behind the backdrop behind the drummer. Sound is either run on stage using an iPad or out front when we have a dedicated sound man using the in-built wifi. No issues to date. We use a mixture of the Aux for monitors and I use the Ultranet into a P16-M for in ear monitors. Inputs; 5xdrums, bass, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, 2x keys (I submix using Key Largo), and 5 vocals. Inputs 17/18 for pre-show MP3. 

 

I also use an XR18 at home as an interface for mac mini for my keys. Again just works. 

[Theo Verelst]

I would generally much rather have a decent quality analog mixer, to prevent the general "mush" of a digital sound: the extra AD/DA conversion will allow remote control (is possible in analog, but nobody makes that), recall, digital effects and digital routing (analog routing is possible in general).

 

A Yamaha MG16XU (which I  use) lets you have that desirable tactile access to physical sliders so dearly imitated in pad and prowser mix control apps. No wifi problems, expensive stage boxes...

 

Of course a network cable coming from the stage with many digitized sources available for some device or computer is a nice thought, track recording is nice, doubling as a many IO computer audio interface is cool, but what exactly will all those digital channels achieve? seperate AD/DA for effects running in a daw ? Why not a digital output for the digital instruments directly into the computer ?

 

Many thoughts possible, one other practical one: the sampling frequency might matter to you, and the whole sound of those digital mix solutions might be ok with some, but even after testing and iterations of all kinds of adjustable parameters in the mix your performance hall with all the effects might sound much like the same mush all the time.

 

T.

[jeffincltnc]

21 hours ago, Theo Verelst said:

I would generally much rather have a decent quality analog mixer, to prevent the general "mush" of a digital sound: the extra AD/DA conversion will allow remote control (is possible in analog, but nobody makes that), recall, digital effects and digital routing (analog routing is possible in general).

 

A Yamaha MG16XU (which I  use) lets you have that desirable tactile access to physical sliders so dearly imitated in pad and prowser mix control apps. No wifi problems, expensive stage boxes...

 

Of course a network cable coming from the stage with many digitized sources available for some device or computer is a nice thought, track recording is nice, doubling as a many IO computer audio interface is cool, but what exactly will all those digital channels achieve? seperate AD/DA for effects running in a daw ? Why not a digital output for the digital instruments directly into the computer ?

 

Many thoughts possible, one other practical one: the sampling frequency might matter to you, and the whole sound of those digital mix solutions might be ok with some, but even after testing and iterations of all kinds of adjustable parameters in the mix your performance hall with all the effects might sound much like the same mush all the time.

 

T.

 

What will these digital mixers achieve?  Aside from a massive reduction of stage footprint, a portable console on an iPad to walk around the room - or mix FOH in a bar from a proper position without running snakes around a little room, giving everyone their own in-ear-mix feed and letting them do whatever they want in the "more me" department on their phone without having to worry about "give me a little more volume on my bass in my monitor, please", and of course, when you gig in the same places over and over again you have your settings saved for the room to call up with a press of a button.  Carry it around in a little 4U rack bag with a couple accessories and you are ready to go.