Integrate Yamaha CP88 with MainStage?

[CyberGene]

I purchased MainStage some years ago but touched it once and never used it really, so I'm not familiar with it. I'm wondering if I can use it as an additional sound generator to the CP88 in the following way:

- I prefer not having to deal a lot with the Mac while playing. Rather use the CP as the main controller

- Use the CP's audio interface in MainStage, so that both the CP internal sound and the MainStage sound output are mixed and coming only from the CP output into the main mixer

- I see it's possible to make a section, say the "sub" section, send MIDI control messages when it's off. So, if possible I would like to use the sub-section either for its own sounds (when on), or to change patches on MainStage (when off)

- If possible, I would prefer to work from a single performance on the CP and just turn on/off the sub section and when off, it will control MainStage where I will map the incoming CC messages for different purposes such as e.g. change patches on rocker switch usage, map knobs to effects, etc.

- If possible, capture the split L/R button and apply the corresponding split in MainStage. However I see only the L/R state being sent (L, R, L+R) but not the actual split point which means it won't work as I expect it to...

- I would like to use my favorite plugins in MainStage such as U-He synths, Arturia synths, MainStage Hammond organ, etc. Do I have to create a separate (whatever it's called in MainStage) performance for every single patch, even when from the same virtual instrument, or can I somehow put a single U-He RePro with only those presets I like, Arturia Jupiter-8 with those presets I like, etc. and switch between presets within a synth which will then jump to the next synth and its first preset, etc? Not sure if you get what I mean, let me know 😀 (I don't want to create hundreds of MainStage presets, each being a single synth with a single preset inside but rather switch between selected presets within a single synth, all of them sequentially changed by turning the sound select knob in the CP sub section)

 

Do you think that's possible or would you rather program separate CP-performances which will send the proper bank and program select to MainStage? Or is any other software better, e.g. Camelot? Any advices are welcome 🍻

[ElmerJFudd]

Setting things up is easier than you imagine.  
 

Install the Yamaha USB driver on your Mac.  This will provide Midi and audio ins and outs.  The CP plays MainStage via midi and audio comes back to to the CP88 all via the same USB cable.  In MainStage midi and audio preferences, you just select the CP88.  
 

Many people use MainStage on a MacBook, once setup, with the screen closed.   You would just need to create your setlist of performance setups ahead of time and establish what you want to use to advance to next setup.  Some people use the lowest or highest key on their keyboard to go forward/backward.  
 

MainStage setups are very flexible.  You can layer sounds and set key ranges in the software without needing to do anything on the CP88.  
 

 

 

[ElmerJFudd]

https://sundaysounds.com/blogs/news/mainstage-how-to-guide

[CyberGene]

I've played around with MainStage a little, seems like a very intuitive software, although I'll have to read more about the assignments.

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

if possible I would like to use the sub-section either for its own sounds (when on), or to change patches on MainStage (when off)

I believe you can use the subsection controls to send MIDI CCs when the sub-section is off, but not MIDI Program Change. The only place in the CP where you can specify MIDI Program Changes is, I believe, in the Live Sets (where a single Live Set can contain up to 4 Program Changes to be sent on different channels).

[ElmerJFudd]

32 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I believe you can use the subsection controls to send MIDI CCs when the sub-section is off, but not MIDI Program Change. The only place in the CP where you can specify MIDI Program Changes is, I believe, in the Live Sets (where a single Live Set can contain up to 4 Program Changes to be sent on different channels).

I don’t use it this way, but I can see when combining sounds from both the CP88 and MainStage it would be incredibly useful to fire off a program change to MainStage with the switch of LiveSet in the CP88.  👍

[CyberGene]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

I believe you can use the subsection controls to send MIDI CCs when the sub-section is off, but not MIDI Program Change. The only place in the CP where you can specify MIDI Program Changes is, I believe, in the Live Sets (where a single Live Set can contain up to 4 Program Changes to be sent on different channels).

Yes, exploring the manual it seems like that's the case indeed.

 

BTW, going back and forth between the user manual for the CP and the YC, to me it seems that there's something on the CP but on the YC: the category selectors and voice selection rocker switches will send a CC containing a specific value denoting the selected voice. This means that using the MIDI scripting plugin on MainStage one can write simple logic that will capture these CC-s and use them to simulate program changes, i.e. select particular MainStage patches.

[Iconoclast]

I know a lot of people worry about having a computer on stage, but I only glance at mine and only touch between songs, or when we deviate from the setlist, or if one of my program changes go awry. I don't think it effects stage presence any more than searching for a program on your hardware keyboard.  I play with other dudes who use them and if you keep it on a low stand or something, you'd never know. I keep mine in plain sight.

As far as managing your plug-ins: I think you could run it the way you want, but as a long-time MS user, I guess I don't understand the utility of it. If you already have your plug in pre-sets that you like, it's dead simple and fast to make a mainstage program out of each of them and then arrange them in their own folders.

You can also buy a simple programmable USB MIDI footswitch, connect it directly to the computer, and teach it to sequence through your MS patches. It doesn't need to connect to your CP at all. Look at something like the One Control Gecko or Morningstar MC3 although there's quite a few of these type of things.  I use the footpedal to command prgrm changes in Mainstage and then that MS program commands the proper program in my Nord Stage, even if I'm using NO VSTs in that particular program.

Otherwise, I'm not really familiar with the CP's controls and I don't really understand what you mean by "sub-section" so I can't help you there. Suffice to say that Mainstage is pretty powerful and can...in theory...probably do whatever you need it to do. But there is definitely a steep hump early in the learning curve.

[Stokely]

My worry about a computer is where to put it on the tight stages we often have.   I love computer instruments and have some really good ones    There simply isn't room sometimes to have a separate table or stand, and I have a pedalboard underneath me (that perhaps I could expand for a small laptop...)

My ipad, logistically, is much easier since it velcroes right to a blank area of my Modx like a second screen.  Conceivably I guess a laptop could do the same but that would stick up higher than I'd like...hmmm, I do have an older small macbook pro, better yet would be a newer ipad air    
I don't normally need to look at my ipad for the instruments (though I do use it for other things like lyrics and my monitor mix control)...I wonder if I could leave a laptop closed if it was sitting in that spot (??)

For organs, my ipad has my computer beat (b-3x) but for synths I'd really love to be using Diva and Repro.  That said there are some decent poly synths on ios but I don't like them quite as much as those two.

Interested to see how this works for you.  I think Yamaha has really gone ahead of the pack with computer and tablet/phone integration and it's the best feature of the Modx.

[Iconoclast]

I painted a shelf liberated from a renovation project and put it on an X stand...that I back up to my X stand. Holds all my peripherals and a couple drinks.  There's more elegant stands and solutions, but a shelf is pretty easy to make and put on any stand.  You can see the Morningstar pedal in the middle of my pedals. It does prgrm +/- and anything else you could possible send a midi message for. It connects only to the USB hub, not to the keyboard, so you can use it with any keyboard that you integrate MS with. (I realize this pic is kind of a mess but it was taken during setup before I'd cleaned up my cable runs)

This is an incredibly versatile rig. I retain the great pianos and Organs the Nord has, and gain the synth/sample/sequence stuff that I can run from Mainstage all simultaneously with program changes for the entire rig with a single footswitch.

[CyberGene]

46 minutes ago, Iconoclast said:

As far as managing your plug-ins: I think you could run it the way you want, but as a long-time MS user, I guess I don't understand the utility of it. If you already have your plug in pre-sets that you like, it's dead simple and fast to make a mainstage program out of each of them and then arrange them in their own folders.

I think you are right. I've been experimenting with MainStage for the last few days and I've realized that it's better if I just create separate patches in MainStage and switch between them the way you suggest.

 

However my main need is to be able to use the CP88 as a single keyboard that I can use both for its onboard sounds and for MainStage. While this works perfectly out of the box (for layered sound or for using only one or the other), I can't see an easy way to make splits. On the CP I can easily put sounds on the left, right (or L+R) and set the split point by pressing the split button + the key. However that won't affect MainStage and it seems setting split points in MS is only done in edit mode, i.e. in advance, not while performing. Ideally, if I could use a key combination, or something like "press and hold a pedal + key" to send a command to MS to move the currently selected patch to the left or right would be great. I'm a software developer myself and have discovered there's a MIDI scripting plugin in MS where I can write simple code that captures MIDI and performs actions but I don't see the possibility to send an action to change the key range of the instrument strips in the patches, or in other worlds to control the split point... Have you had to deal with something like that?

[CyberGene]

BTW, there's something like MIDI master controller function on the CP itself which supports multiple MIDI zones each having a specified range, so I can do the split there, so MS will only receive the notes from the specified keyboard region. The issue with this approach is Yamaha implemented it a bit awkwardly and I have to menu dive a lot to set the keyboard range in two steps (lower limit, higher limit of the zone range) which is just too tedious... I've already proposed in their IdeaScale for them to make a few shortcuts that would automatically enable the first external MIDI zone and assign it to either L, R, L+R using the global split point. That would be of tremendous help in solving my use-case. Then I won't deal with any split points in the MS and it will listen for the entire range but will receive only from a limited range, based on what the CP sends to it.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, CyberGene said:

However my main need is to be able to use the CP88 as a single keyboard that I can use both for its onboard sounds and for MainStage. While this works perfectly out of the box (for layered sound or for using only one or the other), I can't see an easy way to make splits. On the CP I can easily put sounds on the left, right (or L+R) and set the split point by pressing the split button + the key. However that won't affect MainStage and it seems setting split points in MS is only done in edit mode, i.e. in advance, not while performing.

Correct. The real-time easy operation of the CP is limited to its internal sounds. Its 4-zone MIDI controller capabilities are mostly menu based, and do not operate very differently from how you would do such things in typical workstation or workstation-like boards that lack the immediacy of the dedicated front panel controls (for internal sounds) of boards like the CP. It's great that CP has these MIDI functionalities at all... the similar "direct manipulation" competitive boards like Korg SV2 and Nord Piano can't do these things, even through menus. So whether you look at the the lack of comparable direct manipulation of MIDI based sounds as as the cup being half-empty or half-full is a matter of perspective,

 

For Mainstage integration in particular, I think you may want to look at the Roland Fantom-08 instead. Its quick split-and-layer functions (and ability to manipulate those things in real time), while not as visceral and tactile as those of the CP88, are pretty well implemented, and work equally well for internal or external sounds. There is a bit more of an initial learning curve, but it is not bad.

[Iconoclast]

22 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I think you are right. I've been experimenting with MainStage for the last few days and I've realized that it's better if I just create separate patches in MainStage and switch between them the way you suggest.

 

However my main need is to be able to use the CP88 as a single keyboard that I can use both for its onboard sounds and for MainStage. While this works perfectly out of the box (for layered sound or for using only one or the other), I can't see an easy way to make splits. On the CP I can easily put sounds on the left, right (or L+R) and set the split point by pressing the split button + the key. However that won't affect MainStage and it seems setting split points in MS is only done in edit mode, i.e. in advance, not while performing. Ideally, if I could use a key combination, or something like "press and hold a pedal + key" to send a command to MS to move the currently selected patch to the left or right would be great. I'm a software developer myself and have discovered there's a MIDI scripting plugin in MS where I can write simple code that captures MIDI and performs actions but I don't see the possibility to send an action to change the key range of the instrument strips in the patches, or in other worlds to control the split point... Have you had to deal with something like that?

I don't know how you set split points in the CP so I can't really help you there. I do a similar thing with the Nord but I rarely use both the Nord and MS in the same patch, primarily because the Nord has fixed split points.  Patch changing is so fast and seamless with MS and Nord that I find it really easy to just tap a foot switch and viola, I'm suddenly playing the next instrument and the reverb/delay/sustains from the previous patch remain active. MS has truly the best patch switching methodology that I've ever run into (that's why it's so resource heavy, it basically keeps all programs open simultaneously to do this).

I know that if you use Camelot pro the way it's supposed to, where you turn local off on your CP, you can set split points where ever you want and still use the CP's internal sounds.  Camelot only sends notes to your CP that meet it's split criteria. I've only dabbled with Camelot pro and never gigged with it, but you might want to take a look at it.