Comfortably Numb - Pulse (live) v album version

[Sunlight2]

Does anyone do this song as per the live Pulse version of the 90s, with the Jon Carin/Richard Wright emulation of the original orchestral parts (which were not used on those Floyd tours, although I think Gilmour has gone back to them recently)? 

 

They get huge synth/brass sounds from their Kurzweils in those (much slower) verses which I'm struggling to replicate on my MODX/Nord Electro 6 combo. Any tips on how they got those sounds?

 

Conversely in the "There is no pain..." chorus the synth string part sounds rather thin, although it cuts through nicely. At the moment I'm using orcehstral strings, but my guitarist complains that it sounds muddy and clashes with him EQ-wise! I suspect this is his way of saying "Could you turn down so I can be even louder?"

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

Just do what sounds good, and remember that people still use the original as their reference point. You need MASSIVE horns/strings for the outro, and a nice soft brass pad for the verses. You MUST have those descending string arpeggios in the B section, and the easiest way to get it to both cut and fill is to layer two string sections an octave apart. There is plenty of counter melody during those arpeggios; you can grab as much or as little as your guitar player can handle without it keeping him from getting laid later. 

[stoken6]

In general, I find that if orchestral strings don't work (can't cut through, too dense in the mix etc.), Mellotron strings do. To thicken up thin strings, try layering in octaves, although that does take up more sonic free space in the mix.

 

I listened to the Pulse performance on YT. Drums and bass are huge, orchestral parts are moderate, Tim Renwick is gently strumming an acoustic, way back in the mix. Gilmour doesn't touch his guitar apart from when he's soloing. 

 

You might be suffering from your colleague taking the view that "every song is a guitar song". Numb is not a guitar song, apart from the solos. He should turn down. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

I basically do what MathofInsects says.  I don't try to copy the exact lines of the brass during the verses nor anything else, other than maybe that descending line that happens over the D and A of the chorus.

Basically, like almost every song I do (other than Peg!) I just make something up "in the vein of" and I feel it works pretty well.  After all, I'm not an orchestra and I hate tracks so anything is going to be a compromise.  If I have two keyboards I do usually put a hammond sound on one for the outro, there is one on the record and it kind of "rockifies" the ending and blends well with the orchestra.

A guitarist complaining that an orchestra clashes with his instrument on a song that features an orchestra?  GTFO of here.   I'm the first one to stay out of a guitarist's way on a signature riff or a solo, by way of patch choice or octave, but that's the stereotypical ego of the guitarist showing....he needs to find some tasty ways to support you on that song.  Other than the solos as noted, and that's where I tone it down a bit as we don't typically have a sound engineer to make sure the soloist stands out.

[Mills Dude]

Yeah, IMO the guitarist has nothing to complain about.  He gets the chance to rip not one but two of the greatest guitar solos is rock history both contained in a single song.  He should just lay out during the B section and let the rhythm section handle it. The dude don't need to be front and center every second of every tune.

 

Sorry, but this kind of stuff just raises my hackles and I'm certainly making assumptions and could be way, way off base. This is one of the reasons why I have no patience anymore playing bar gigs with guitar heroes that bring out 4X12 cabs with dual/triple rectifier amps to a sh*tty club that need to get their "tone" and refuse the share sonic space to make a tune sound great.   Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

 

The only place I'd want electric guitar in the B section is if the playing real light and clean to emulate the acoustic strumming or to help accent the bass pickup notes at the beginning of each phrase.  That song is very expressive with dynamics, crescendos, etc.  Just charging through at full blast wrecks the sprit of the tune, which is what people want to hear.  That B section should be gentle, behind the beat.

 

For me, when I've covered that tune, I want the strings to be as 'symphonic' as they can get.  I've used Korg triton era strings effectively here.  I think a MODX would have all that is necessary to cover this.

[Moonglow]

4 hours ago, Stokely said:

I do usually put a hammond sound on one for the outro, there is one on the record and it kind of "rockifies" the ending and blends well with the orchestra.

Same here. I enjoy doing manipulating the Leslie speed during this section, to help with the crescendos during the guitar solo.

[BernMeister]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

You MUST have those descending string arpeggios in the B section, and the easiest way to get it to both cut and fill is to layer two string sections an octave apart.

 

The arpeggio strings are not octave doubled (nor are the counter lines). If in doubt, you can give them a better listen here.

 

Sure, you can certainly try to octave double these, but you may end up overloading the arrangement. Assuming the rest of the band plays their parts accordingly (and yes, I mean the guitarist too), then these string parts (played as originally intended) will fit in the mix well. After all, it was arranged by the late master, Michael Kamem.

[Redknife]

Here are two more recent covers illustrating the common approach: David Gilmour 2016 and Sons of Apollo. As I’ve played in the past, note the light strumming guitar WAY back in the mix with the symphonic string lines and brass tones comprising the main mid range mix. Both Gilmour and Sons of Apollo could be guitar heavy throughout but come to the same musical conclusion. It ruins the magnitude of the guitar solo parts if the lighter sections aren’t,,, light. Another key to fullness for this tune is bass tone and lock of the bass drum and bass. Guitar that is up in the mix throughout also turns this tune into a plodding monotone vibe IMO.

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, BernMeister said:

 

The arpeggio strings are not octave doubled (nor are the counter lines). If in doubt, you can give them a better listen here.

 

Sure, you can certainly try to octave double these, but you may end up overloading the arrangement. Assuming the rest of the band plays their parts accordingly (and yes, I mean the guitarist too), then these string parts (played as originally intended) will fit in the mix well. After all, it was arranged by the late master, Michael Kamem.

They are not--on the recording. But the question is about how to make them 1) cut, and 2) not muddy, live. As someone who's worked with this question on this very tune a fair amount, the best solution I've found is to sweeten the midrange line with a second orchestra part an octave above and lower in volume. When the OP played them where written, his gorilla--sorry, guitar player--complained of muddiness. And when he played them an octave up, they didn't cut. 

IMO the three iconic elements in that song are the pin prick splink, those gorgeous descending arpeggios (though not the countermelody), and the huge guitar solo(s). 

Soundhumans mixing a PF band have no trouble pushing the guitar up in volume; they think of it as a guitar band. Which the BAND was. But a PF tribute band is a keyboard band, through and through. So you're constantly trying to navigate the space between audience expectation, authenticity, and "the reality on the ground."

 

[niacin]

This is worth watching (it's Beato's breakdown of the song), and yes I second telling the guitar player to stfu until his solo spots.  Like others here I layer a Hammond behind the brass to build the second guitar solo (listen to Sherinian in the Sons of Apollo video above), and use two different string patches for the verse, no octaves or octave shift.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-gF-tmblA8

 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

One of these days (I’m going to cut you into little pieces) I want to sit down and try to chart out the actual orchestral arrangement. It’s a bit hard to decipher in some places due to the dense mix, but there are some really beautiful lines in there. For a minute we had a backup singer who also played violin and I tried to get her to play that lovely counter melody over the arpeggiated lines during the chorus but she never did. 

It’s one song that I would be willing to play with tracks because the full orchestra is just so lush.

 

Oh, I just listened to the album version while writing this and realized I’ve been playing the arpeggios wrong this whole time. The very last one before the repeat is ascending, not descending.

[BernMeister]

14 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

One of these days (I’m going to cut you into little pieces) I want to sit down and try to chart out the actual orchestral arrangement. It’s a bit hard to decipher in some places due to the dense mix, but there are some really beautiful lines in there. For a minute we had a backup singer who also played violin and I tried to get her to play that lovely counter melody over the arpeggiated lines during the chorus but she never did. 

It’s one song that I would be willing to play with tracks because the full orchestra is just so lush.

 

Oh, I just listened to the album version while writing this and realized I’ve been playing the arpeggios wrong this whole time. The very last one before the repeat is ascending, not descending.

I doubt that a player of your talent needs help with transcribing this arrangement, even with the many helpful transcriptions out there anyway. Otherwise, I sure some of us would be willing to offer our take on it

[bfields]

There's always this approach:

 

 

I don't think I'll try to transcribe those arpeggios.

[stoken6]

Reminds me that I arranged this for our horn band years ago. Our alto saxist plays clarinet, and our tenor player doubles on violin! This is what i came up with:

Obviously not every line from the record appears here, and there will be some tonal deficiencies (I'm short of alto instruments such as French horn). I've given the beautiful chorus countermelody (that I think is oboe on the record?) to the trombone, and taken other "creative liberties" with the arrangement. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

For me part of the fun of playing covers is to make up parts and lines as the inspiration hits.  I rarely play a song the same, it would have to be some integral signature part (say the main piano riff from Clocks or similar).   Sometimes I just learn the chords without listening hard to the song--an extreme example of this being the keys player for the Talking Heads not listening to "Take me to the River" before coming up with his keys part!   What I do is much more subtle and "in the ballpark" than that, usually.   This applies to patches too, sometimes I'll try different patches from my norm.  To really know if it worked or not it helps to record shows!   I realize this more organic approach is not what a lot of bands do, especially tribute ones or people that use tracks,  ymmv.

[Sunlight2]

Great replies, thanks guys! I'll find some way of pointing out that the floor is mine for those choruses!