Something new and interesting from Crumar!!!

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, Garubi said:

Product page and specifications are in English.

https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=42

 

 

12kg/26.5lbs - presumably that's excluding its case?

 

Cheers, Mike

[Garubi]

In the video (I'm italian...) they say that it only has the E. Piano modeled, the others sounds are sampled from real instruments using their new samplig robot (you can find mentions of it in other threads here when they released the new AP samplings).

I think this is the major difference from the Seven (in addition to the weight difference, due to the fact that the Seventeen doesn't have the cover and the aluminum legs are optional).

The keybed will be the same of the Seven

[ElmerJFudd]

Hmmm.  Maybe they’re having trouble sourcing all the parts they need to build the seven?    

[Delaware Dave]

So it's a Seven, less some features (expression pedal input as an example), legs optional, same sound set and less weight.  What's the cost difference?  Does their market research indicate that these are the features that needed to be changed and the price point reduced (presumably)?   Another head scratcher for me. If I didn't know better it would seem that the direction they are moving is lower entry price point by eliminating certain features and purchasing those features separately as accessories.  If you want the expression pedal source the USB expression pedal. If you want the legs for the Seventeen purchase them separately;  on the Mojo classic if you want an 11 pin connection purchase the "11" product accessory.  Seems to be the trend he is taking, entice with a low entry price point and add accessories as needed.  To some degree it makes sense, he may add a feature that no one wants but now he's stuck with the cost of adding that feature into every keyboard he builds of that model.  If he offers a solution for that feature separately then you buy it and you're not purchasing unwanted features.

 

My hopes of the Electro Killer (a 73 key single manual controller replicate of the DMC122 with the Gemini) are dashed since he announced a discontinuance of the internal Gemini module.  That is the keyboard I have always wanted; apparently he didn't think the market wanted that keyboard but apparently thinks that the market wants the Seventeen and its retro look.

 

https://www.crumar.it/?a=showproduct&b=42

[ElmerJFudd]

Single manual DMC122 with Gemini would be an attention grabber without a doubt.  I don’t think it’s difficult to come in under Nord’s $4200 asking price for a NS3 compact. As proven by Hammond’s SKX Pro 73 @ $2995 which Crumar can probably match.  
 

What does Gemini have over an SKX Pro?  First thing that comes to mind is their VA synth is poly. 

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

What does Gemini have over an SKX Pro?  First thing that comes to mind is their VA synth is poly. 

• Two new killer acoustic pianos you can listen to them here: https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=page&p=VeniceGrandC5    https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=page&p=VeniceGrandD274  as well as 4 other acoustic pianos vs. the anemic acoustic pianos of the SKX series
• VB3ii (same as Mojo). SKxPro has virtual contacts.
• Rhodes , Wurli (two models 200 and 206),  D6 Clav (with all of the filter and pickup options)
• Trumpet, 3 saxes, strings, Brass, Violas, violins, flutes, polyphonic synth (vs the Hammonds Mono synth), CP70 (one modeled and one sampled), CP80, Vox, Farfisa, DX7, Pipe organ, harpsichord, 11 effect processors and a handful of other instruments. 
• Continuous module updating, always adding improvements and has been since I've owned mine (for 6 years). The new acoustic pianos just came out in the last few months.   
• For Hammond, once the next model arrives all improvements and firmware releases come to a stop.  

Full feature list here:  https://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=showproduct&b=43

 

So from a feature sound perspective the Gemini module has the advantage, plus it is a portable module.  Want two use two keyboards, one synth action and one hammer action, you choose your own lightweight low cost controllers and midi them to the Gemini.

 

The DMC-122 with Gemini installed is already under the SKXPro 73 price.  I would imagine a DMC-73 with Gemini would be significantly less expensive than an SKXPro 73 as well as less expensive than a Electro 6 and way less expensive than a Stage 3.  A con however is that the Gemini is bi-timbral, this is where the Electro and Stage have the upper hand.

[Adan]

The Seven weighs 33 lbs without legs and lid, so the Seventeen weighs substantially less.

 

When I had my seven, I ended up never using the lid or legs for gigging.  The legs were nice when it was set up in my house, but that's all I used them for.

 

The modeled acoustic pianos were not nearly as good as the sampled ones, so it makes sense to drop those.

 

I eventually sold my Seven because of the TP100 action.  The main advantage of the TP100 action is its portability.  The fact that the Seventeen is lighter than the Seven sort of ups that advantage.  But now that TP110 is revealed in the Numa X piano and according to early reviews is an improvement over TP100 makes it harder to settle for TP100.  That's my perspective.

 

 

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Spider76 said:

The product page and specs are a bit baffling: so this is exactly the same as a Seven, only a bit lighter, without lid/legs and a reduced UI.

Really hard to see its commercial viability in the crumar portfolio...unless of course the Seven is about to be discontinued

 

It's very much like what I guessed it would be earlier in the thread. A Seven without the EP-specific aesthetics and controls, presumably at a lower price.

 

3 hours ago, stoken6 said:

12kg/26.5lbs - presumably that's excluding its case?

 

You mean excluding the lid? Unlike the Seven, the lid is not included. I guessed he'd keep the lid, but I think it's fine without it, especially if it helps get the price down.

 

2 hours ago, Garubi said:

they say that it only has the E. Piano modeled, the others sounds are sampled from real instruments using their new samplig robot (you can find mentions of it in other threads here when they released the new AP samplings).

I think this is the major difference from the Seven (in addition to the weight difference

 

I'm not sure there's much  difference there, additional sampled sounds were added to the Seven in updates as well. Where does it say it only has the E. piano modeled? At least the English version of the site reads differently: "Seventeen also integrates both physical modeling technology and samples. In fact, the first sound we find is the famous sound of the modeled Tine Piano, followed by some of the most iconic vintage pianos: Electric Grand (both 70 & 80), Reed EP, Clavi EP, plus high quality sampled material for Acoustic Pianos, combos and synth piano sounds." All the things listed before the "high quality sampled material" would appear to be modeled; all the things listed after, sampled.

 

44 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

So it's a Seven, less some features (expression pedal input as an example), legs optional, same sound set and less weight.  What's the cost difference?

 

Yup, cost difference is the question!

 

44 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

 Does their market research indicate that these are the features that needed to be changed and the price point reduced (presumably)?   Another head scratcher for me.

 

My guess is that it's an additional model to the Seven, not a replacement. So then they wouldn't be changing the features and price point of the Seven, but rather introducing a lower cost variant. Seems sensible.

 

44 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

My hopes of the Electro Killer (a 73 key single manual controller replicate of the DMC122 with the Gemini) are dashed since he announced a discontinuance of the internal Gemini module.  That is the keyboard I have always wanted; apparently he didn't think the market wanted that keyboard but apparently thinks that the market wants the Seventeen and its retro look.

 

Maybe the introduction of a lower cost Seven but not a lower cost DMC speaks to how well the Seven and the DMC themselves have sold...?

 

Personally, I don't thing a single manual DMC with Gemini module would be an Electro killer. One of the biggest appeals of the Electro is the array of fully dedicated 1-function-per-knob controls. Every piano, organ, and effect control is logically placed/grouped and labeled for its function, no matter what sound you're playing. The DMC is still a generic control surface. In almost all ways, the DMC front panel interface is not as good as the Electro's, the one exception being that it has two sets of drawbars for organ (and even that would probably disappear in a one manual version). I'm not saying that what you're describing wouldn't have appeal, I'm just saying that I don't think it would be much of a threat to an Electro, whose biggest appeal might be its immediacy.

 

[drawback]

8 minutes ago, Adan said:

The Seven weighs 33 lbs without legs and lid, so the Seventeen weighs substantially less.

 

When I had my seven, I ended up never using the lid or legs for gigging.  The legs were nice when it was set up in my house, but that's all I used them for.

 

The modeled acoustic pianos were not nearly as good as the sampled ones, so it makes sense to drop those.

 

I eventually sold my Seven because of the TP100 action.  The main advantage of the TP100 action is its portability.  The fact that the Seventeen is lighter than the Seven sort of ups that advantage.  But now that TP110 is revealed in the Numa X piano and according to early reviews is an improvement over TP100 makes it harder to settle for TP100.  That's my perspective.

 

 

It’s ironic now that there’s a seventeen, I’ve been paying more attention to the Seven. Probably the best Rhodes in hardware already, and now it seems the latest APs are right up there. I’d be very surprised if the TP110 is made available for competing companies for quite some time, so yes, it’s definitely a compromise.

[bjosko]

From their official FB page:

Street Price 

Euro 1349 / US$ 1579

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, drawback said:

It’s ironic now that there’s a seventeen, I’ve been paying more attention to the Seven. Probably the best Rhodes in hardware already, and now it seems the latest APs are right up there. I’d be very surprised if the TP110 is made available for competing companies for quite some time, so yes, it’s definitely a compromise.

Hmmm, but is the Seven the best Rhodes in hardware?  It is after all a digital keyboard, and there are so many to choose from with very good Rhodes sample libraries - many paired with better actions.  Yamaha  CP88, Korg SV2, Nord - Grand, Stage, Piano, Electro, Viscount Legend 70s come to mind quickly. Not to mention we have the option of a real vintage Rhodes, the new Mk8 Rhodes, and similar instruments like the Vintage Vibe Electric Piano. 

[AnotherScott]

12 minutes ago, bjosko said:

US$ 1579

 

Nice, a good amount cheaper than the $2,399 Seven... a bigger price difference than I'd have anticipated. The only less expensive real alternative is the Numa X, at $1,329. And now compared to the $2k 73-key SV2 and CP73, instead of paying a premium for the Crumar sounds and aesthetic as you do with the Seven, you can now get it for quite a bit less than those boards (though obviously still without all their front panel controls).

[kenheeter]

I just have to say that the TP100 action on the Seven feels and responds exactly how I want it to. I gigged with a Rhodes Stage 73 for decades and the Seven seems just right to me.  I also like the new acoustic samples with that keybed.  It may be that I'm conditioned because I have a Nord Stage 2 EX 76, which also has the TP100.  In any case I personally would not rule anything out just because it has the TP100.  Just my 0.02 CAD.

 

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, kenheeter said:

In any case I personally would not rule anything out just because it has the TP100.  

 

Yes... as I've mentioned before, I've played TP100 boards that I thought felt awful to play, and I've played ones I've quite liked.

[bjosko]

I think much of it depend on the programmed velocity curve.

I was an early adopter of the Nord Stage Classic, and for almost  each firmware update ( there was many updates in the beginning), they tweaked the velocity curve - not always to the better, but ended up OK.

 

I now have the Legend 70 and the Crumar Seven, and even they both have  the TP100, I found the Legend with its latest update to be the better - action wise.

The Seven feels like a normally maintained Mark1, and is fine for this and the Wulitzer,  but a bit heavy for AP. 
I can feel it in my underarms after 15-20 minutes.

(Then I can’t remember how a real Wurly feels, I swapped mine for a MarkII 40 + years ago, but seem to remeber it felt more like a real piano compared to the MarkII) 
It got a new global setting for the touch response, but on the softer setting I find it more difficult to master the correct velocity, it is easy to smash a key to hard and  make it sound higher then I want to.

 I feel like they hit that part better on the Legend for now.

 

[stoken6]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

You mean excluding the lid? Unlike the Seven, the lid is not included. I guessed he'd keep the lid, but I think it's fine without it, especially if it helps get the price down.

I was actually assuming that the weight listed excluded the lid AND excluded the lower part of the case. Even half a case is going to add weight. 

 

The quoted weight is very low: competitive with the Electro HP range, and the Electros aren't carrying several feet of (I assume) plywood on their underside.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoken6]

1 hour ago, kenheeter said:

I just have to say that the TP100 action on the Seven feels and responds exactly how I want it to. I gigged with a Rhodes Stage 73 for decades and the Seven seems just right to me.

I recall that Crumar announced they selected the TP100 not for reasons of travel weight, but because it was closest to the Rhodes action. Makes sense for the Seven.

 

If the Seventeen is meant to be more "acoustic piano", and less "Rhodes/Wurly", the justification for the TP100 is not as strong. I write as someone who has never found a TP100 installation I could get on with.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[ElmerJFudd]

Quote

I recall that Crumar announced they selected the TP100 not for reasons of travel weight, but because it was closest to the Rhodes action.

Quote

The Seven feels like a normally maintained Mark1,

That’s the problem really.  As I can’t imagine wanting to play piano on a Rhodes action.  Certainly not a MkI.  For me it’s preferable in the other direction - if it feels decently similar to acoustic piano then not an issue translating to Rhodes parts.  
 

But this really has as much to do with style/repertoire, solo or accompanying or with band.  And preference for the instrument being similar to what we practice on.  Preferences that match what we do. 
 

I’ll play on most anything within reason if I don’t have to bring an instrument and its an easy gig (as many are).   I’ll concede a PX-560 and others like it, Kawai ES-110, etc. are a reasonable sacrifice for weight and cost. 
 

But, I’m not a fan of spending upwards of $1, 2, 3, 4k or more for an instrument with an action that  I’m not thrilled about.  That’s why the Seven was a pass for me.  Easy decision.  I wanted to love it.  I drove close to 3 hours to spend an afternoon with one.  It’s fun for Rhodes, which is its appeal. If I had cash to burn I might want to have one around just for Rhodes.  Of course picking instruments is personal, each must make their own decisions.  

[AnotherScott]

39 minutes ago, stoken6 said:

I was actually assuming that the weight listed excluded the lid AND excluded the lower part of the case. Even half a case is going to add weight. 

 

That "lower part of the case" appears to be the board's enclosure, it doesn't come out of that without a screwdriver. ;-)

 

 

[Mighty Ferguson]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Personally, I don't thing a single manual DMC with Gemini module would be an Electro killer. One of the biggest appeals of the Electro is the array of fully dedicated 1-function-per-knob controls. Every piano, organ, and effect control is logically placed/grouped and labeled for its function, no matter what sound you're playing. The DMC is still a generic control surface. In almost all ways, the DMC front panel interface is not as good as the Electro's, the one exception being that it has two sets of drawbars for organ (and even that would probably disappear in a one manual version). I'm not saying that what you're describing wouldn't have appeal, I'm just saying that I don't think it would be much of a threat to an Electro, whose biggest appeal might be its immediacy.

 

I don't want to go too far off topic here from the Seventeen, but I've read posts from Delaware Dave for a few years(I think?) about hoping for a 76 key DMC/Gemini combo, and a quick comment on this as a DMC-122/Gemini owner:

 

Unless the UI of the two devices are brought together and seriously overhauled, I wouldn't recommend such a product. I understand what Dave's after here, but the whole split personality of the DMC/Gemini makes it REALLY clunky to use.  For those who don't know, there's a Mac/PC editor application for the DMC which is similar to controller editors from other brands (e.g. M-Audio, etc)., then there's a totally separate editor for the Gemini, which is web browser based and requires an ad-hoc WiFi connection to the Gemini module (I believe there's a newer software option now for the standalone Gemini, but not for the one in the DMC).  So it really is just like using a separate controller and MIDI module from two distinct vendors, despite the fact that one is literally sitting inside the other.  Don't get me wrong, the sounds in the Gemini are great, and such a product would be as Dave suggest - a real competitor for Hammond/Nord - as long as it functions like a modern performance board.

[ABECK]

It would have been really cool to have a Gemini slot in something like the Seventeen and one could swap the modules between controlers.  Yes, yes, I realize there's 137 reasons why that's not a a great idea.  But an interesting thought.

[stoken6]

I wonder if Guido/Crumar are tempted to create a Nord-style stage keyboard with both piano/EP and Organ sections? It doesn’t have to be based on the Gemini.

 

Cheers, Mike

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Mighty Ferguson said:

 

I don't want to go too far off topic here from the Seventeen, but I've read posts from Delaware Dave for a few years(I think?) about hoping for a 76 key DMC/Gemini combo, and a quick comment on this as a DMC-122/Gemini owner:

 

Unless the UI of the two devices are brought together and seriously overhauled, I wouldn't recommend such a product. I understand what Dave's after here, but the whole split personality of the DMC/Gemini makes it REALLY clunky to use.  For those who don't know, there's a Mac/PC editor application for the DMC which is similar to controller editors from other brands (e.g. M-Audio, etc)., then there's a totally separate editor for the Gemini, which is web browser based and requires an ad-hoc WiFi connection to the Gemini module (I believe there's a newer software option now for the standalone Gemini, but not for the one in the DMC).  So it really is just like using a separate controller and MIDI module from two distinct vendors, despite the fact that one is literally sitting inside the other.  Don't get me wrong, the sounds in the Gemini are great, and such a product would be as Dave suggest - a real competitor for Hammond/Nord - as long as it functions like a modern performance board.

UI is no small piece of the equation, especially on multi engine boards with split/layer capability.  I saw a guy having success with the Gemini, a Roland FP-10 and a Sipario Midi router. But needing the Sipario definitely adds to the cost of a Gemini.  
 

 

 

 

[Mighty Ferguson]

4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

UI is no small piece of the equation, especially on multi engine boards with split/layer capability.  I saw a guy having success with the Gemini, a Roland FP-10 and a Sipario Midi router. But needing the Sipario definitely adds to the cost of a Gemini.  
 

Exactly. I found I couldn’t really use the DMC/Gemini live without some sort of external UI to control it all. I did a ton of work in BandHelper on the iPad to set it all up and switch patches on the two Gemini parts for each tune. 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Mighty Ferguson said:

Exactly. I found I couldn’t really use the DMC/Gemini live without some sort of external UI to control it all. I did a ton of work in BandHelper on the iPad to set it all up and switch patches on the two Gemini parts for each tune. 

 

For a hammer action "single manual DMC" that would already have that external interface, maybe pairing the Gemini with a Studiologic SL73 (or SL88) could do the trick, with the D9X drawbar module...? But I'm not seeing the Gemini as available in the U.S. anymore...

 

[Al Coda]

13 hours ago, bjosko said:

The Seven feels like a normally maintained Mark1, and is fine for this and the Wulitzer,  but a bit heavy for AP. 
I can feel it in my underarms after 15-20 minutes.

(Then I can’t remember how a real Wurly feels,

 

 

Well, w/ the possibilities we have today,- who really wants actions close to a real Fender Rhodes MKI, II or Wurlitzer xxxx,- when the Rhodes company decided for the company designing Steinway actions for their Rhodes mk 8 ?

 

Did anyone ask for the Pratt-Read j-wire action for the new Sequential Prophet 5 and 10 ?

Or did anyone ask for the spring contact Pratt Read action in a Minimoog D reissue ?

No.

 

I prefer getting the sounds as accurate and as playable as possible, but don´t need the design flaws of these old instruments.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[Delaware Dave]

9 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 But I'm not seeing the Gemini as available in the U.S. anymore...

 

Thomanns US. If in stock order it on Monday and have it on Wednesday. Brand new one under $800 and no VAT.  3 year warranty. What makes it appealing is that you pick the controller(s) of your choice so keybed action is no longer a discussion.  This is why the seven or seventeen doesnt appeal to me, your stuck with the controller it comes with where the Gemini gives you those same sounds + another two dozen and you play from the controller of your choice.  As @Al Coda said above you get accurate sounds and you choose the keybed playability (at a discounted price).

[mauriziodececco]

19 hours ago, stoken6 said:

I was actually assuming that the weight listed excluded the lid AND excluded the lower part of the case. Even half a case is going to add weight. 

 

The quoted weight is very low: competitive with the Electro HP range, and the Electros aren't carrying several feet of (I assume) plywood on their underside.

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

I do not think there is lid; in the spec they talk about "PLS-04: Metal leg set (4 pieces) + carry bag" in the accessory. 

 

I while ago i wrote to Crumar telling them that i was ready to sell my NEHP and   buy a Seven in the Nord Electro form factor, or more specifically, if the weight went down to the Nord Electro HP area. Ehm, i am in a bit of a trouble now ...

 

Maurizio