Volume Pedal Blues

[Scott Fraser]

I would never use a Hosa cable in any mission critical situation. I have had several Hosa cables fail during shows. Nope, no way.

[p90jr]

25 minutes ago, Scott Fraser said:

I would never use a Hosa cable in any mission critical situation. I have had several Hosa cables fail during shows. Nope, no way.

With the exception of my beloved Jodavi Zzyzx Snap Jack cables (somebody buy the patent or whatever and put these back into production) and my Pedalsnakes I've had every kind of cable fail... the worst being the molded Planet Waves cables I bought on clearance (seemed like a bargain)... the first one I used lasted 30 minutes. They break themselves under the weight of sticking up from my top-mounted amps. The Hosa cables I have haven't faired worse than anything else...

A friend was re-cabling his studio years ago and just took my pedalboard and made me cables using blue monster cable and Neutrik jacks... but he made the pedal board cables with no slack, so some of them started breaking just from transit, though I still have most of them in use... the longer cables he made for me lasted a few years (longer than my luck with anything else) but I managed to get shorts in them, too. I don't intentionally mistreat them. These days I unplug cables between pedals before loading out... time consuming to plug them in at load in (kind of defeating the purpose of a pedal board) but oxidation is a real problem down here in the swamps... better than scrambling to unplug and plug everything when something cuts out. but that also might avoid strain in transport?

[CEB]

I use Canare GS-6 wire, quiet, fairly low capacitance, well constructed wire.  The jacket is polyvinyl chloride not rubber.  So in the middle of winter when you pull the cables out of road trunks the cables is never stiff.  Also the cost per foot of GS-6 is reasonable.  You can also get it in a wide variety of colors.  I use switchcraft connectors.

[Mark Schmieder]

Canare is the only brand I trust. Never a problem, ever. Mogami can fail; maybe QC was better many years ago. Even so, I often am stuck with them for interconnect cables as there can be supply chain issues with Canare. I won't even consider other brands at this point. Decades of experience has taught me who's who in the cabling world. But with Mogami, be extra careful about the jacks, as it can be hard to tell in advance what you're getting.

[p90jr]

Well, after one practice with a band using it the Mission VM-Pro is awesome... the internal setting was set to preserve the highs when you back off on the volume (I bought it used) and I like that feature so far... it comes with an allen wrench that lets you adjust the "action/stuffness" of the pedal rocking mechanism... I don't think I've ever come across a volume pedal (besides the expensive ones my pedal steel playing buddies use) that someone put so much thought into...

I also bought a TC Electronics Crescendo (auto swell) pedal because it's pretty cheap and seems to work well...

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

6 hours ago, p90jr said:

Well, after one practice with a band using it the Mission VM-Pro is awesome... the internal setting was set to preserve the highs when you back off on the volume (I bought it used) and I like that feature so far... it comes with an allen wrench that lets you adjust the "action/stuffness" of the pedal rocking mechanism... I don't think I've ever come across a volume pedal (besides the expensive ones my pedal steel playing buddies use) that someone put so much thought into...

That's great! If I ever need to be looking for a new volume-pedal, that'll be high on the VERY short short-list of candidates! If staying within that price-range, it'll probably be the ONLY one on that list!

Tell me, p90jr, how's it's action and taper for very quick rapid-fire swells on individual notes in a lead line or fill?
 
 

[p90jr]

On 6/30/2022 at 8:47 PM, Caevan O’Shite said:

That's great! If I ever need to be looking for a new volume-pedal, that'll be high on the VERY short short-list of candidates! If staying within that price-range, it'll probably be the ONLY one on that list!

Tell me, p90jr, how's it's action and taper for very quick rapid-fire swells on individual notes in a lead line or fill?
 
 

The action is like a very good Wah, and is adjustable!!! The taper is as good as I can imagine outside of the pricey pedal steel pedals...my one good attribute on drums is a really fast right foot on the kick drum, so I did sit down and play my best wah wah licks and it did well.

but I've been getting a feel for the TC Electronic Crescendo auto-swell pedal... at first I thought it was a bit useless and I was looking to modding a capacitor for longer swells, but luckily I found a vid with a guy who explained that you shouldn't think of it as pedal that just does all of the work you, but as a pedal you play with touch and dynamics... basically a reverse noise gate, the harder your attack the faster the volume bloom. Gently plucking strings and using the Rolling B Bender as it blooms is giving me good faux pedal steel. Playing fast my giving it a millisecond mute for the envelope to close lets you do rapid-fire swells... depending on what else you put in the chain (and where) you can sound like a steel or a violin or cello or a synth... pretty handy little gadget for $45.

[Scott Fraser]

27 minutes ago, p90jr said:

but I've been getting a feel for the TC Electronic Crescendo auto-swell pedal... at first I thought it was a bit useless and I was looking to modding a capacitor for longer swells, but luckily I found a vid with a guy who explained that you shouldn't think of it as pedal that just does all of the work you, but as a pedal you play with touch and dynamics... basically a reverse noise gate, the harder your attack the faster the volume bloom. Gently plucking strings and using the Rolling B Bender as it blooms is giving me good faux pedal steel. Playing fast my giving it a millisecond mute for the envelope to close lets you do rapid-fire swells... depending on what else you put in the chain (and where) you can sound like a steel or a violin or cello or a synth... pretty handy little gadget for $45.

It really needs a blend control. Otherwise, I pass.

[p90jr]

7 minutes ago, Scott Fraser said:

It really needs a blend control. Otherwise, I pass.

Scott, btw... the very next time I used a Hosa cable after you posted about how they fail... it literally fell apart... it was a right-angle plug and the plug shaft just fell out of the enclosure. Lesson learned. I shall never doubt your extensive experience and conclusions again, good Sir.


A blend control for the Crescendo? Hmmm... I don't want it to blend with the clean signal, for what I'm using it for... which is volume swells... I don't want to hear the attack of the notes, just the trail... I figured for the price a one-trick pony was fine, but I'm finding a lot of uses for that two or three tricks I'm finding in it... I play with an "Americana" songwriter, and he has a few songs where his acoustic finger-picking needs to be the prominent thing, so being able to play 2, 3 or 4 note chord swells behind that, with the B Bender or not, or minimal slide stuff... atmospheric stuff... between that and the eBow he's really happy at what I'm adding to his stuff.

The Mission Volume Pro pedals lets you set the minimum volume... maybe that could be in the ballpark of what you're describing? 

[Scott Fraser]

3 hours ago, p90jr said:

Scott, btw... the very next time I used a Hosa cable after you posted about how they fail... it literally fell apart... it was a right-angle plug and the plug shaft just fell out of the enclosure. Lesson learned. I shall never doubt your extensive experience and conclusions again, good Sir.>>

In my own occasional gigs if something goes down I can improvise around it. In my professional life, if something goes south it's witnessed by thousands of paying audience members. Thus, failure is not an option, out of equal amounts of respect to the artist as well as the audience. Hosa cables have failed me during two concerts in front of audiences. They will never be used in any professional application I am involved in.

3 hours ago, p90jr said:

A blend control for the Crescendo? Hmmm... I don't want it to blend with the clean signal, for what I'm using it for... which is volume swells... I don't want to hear the attack of the notes, just the trail... I figured for the price a one-trick pony was fine, but I'm finding a lot of uses for that two or three tricks I'm finding in it... I play with an "Americana" songwriter, and he has a few songs where his acoustic finger-picking needs to be the prominent thing, so being able to play 2, 3 or 4 note chord swells behind that, with the B Bender or not, or minimal slide stuff... atmospheric stuff... between that and the eBow he's really happy at what I'm adding to his stuff.
The Mission Volume Pro pedals lets you set the minimum volume... maybe that could be in the ballpark of what you're describing? 

I have plenty of volume pedals for swells from silence. That's a major component of what I do. But there's an effect that Bill Frissell uses a lot, where the attack is present, but the note or chord swells in after that, rather like a pedal steel effect. It's subtle & almost sounds like a very heavy compression thing with a slow attack, slow enough that the natural attack is preserved. It's different than a swell from silence, though he may be doing it with a volume pedal which only attenuates by 6dB or so, or he's just so deft with the pedal that he can control it that well. But I was thinking that an automatic attack delay box with a blend to keep the attacks intact, just quieter than the swelling sustain, would get that sound. I just love Frissell's sound & approach & getting a little closer to that sense of chords blooming after the attack is very appealing.

[Caevan O’Shite]

5 hours ago, p90jr said:

...but I've been getting a feel for the TC Electronic Crescendo auto-swell pedal... at first I thought it was a bit useless and I was looking to modding a capacitor for longer swells, but luckily I found a vid with a guy who explained that you shouldn't think of it as pedal that just does all of the work you, but as a pedal you play with touch and dynamics... basically a reverse noise gate, the harder your attack the faster the volume bloom. Gently plucking strings and using the Rolling B Bender as it blooms is giving me good faux pedal steel. Playing fast my giving it a millisecond mute for the envelope to close lets you do rapid-fire swells... depending on what else you put in the chain (and where) you can sound like a steel or a violin or cello or a synth... pretty handy little gadget for $45.

Welcome to a very dear and special part of my guitar playing world! I am sooo into swells, and absolutely LOVE being able to use envelope/touch-controlled swell pedals to do rapid fire touch-controlled swells on individual notes in fairly brisk passages. Fingerstyle playing technique similar to that of a great electric slide player is your best friend here, to quickly damp and mute strings to trigger and control the opening, closing and re-opening of the swells, de facto misguided noise-gate that it is...  More on pedals for this below.

 

1 hour ago, Scott Fraser said:

I have plenty of volume pedals for swells from silence. That's a major component of what I do. But there's an effect that Bill Frissell uses a lot, where the attack is present, but the note or chord swells in after that, rather like a pedal steel effect. It's subtle & almost sounds like a very heavy compression thing with a slow attack, slow enough that the natural attack is preserved. It's different than a swell from silence, though he may be doing it with a volume pedal which only attenuates by 6dB or so, or he's just so deft with the pedal that he can control it that well. But I was thinking that an automatic attack delay box with a blend to keep the attacks intact, just quieter than the swelling sustain, would get that sound. I just love Frissell's sound & approach & getting a little closer to that sense of chords blooming after the attack is very appealing.

THAT is a REALLY COOL idea!  Though I would never, ever give up using my favorite 'envelope/auto-swell' and volume pedals for swell and 'backwards' effects, I will have to try this Frisell/Fraser fade-in bloom effect.

@Scott Fraser and @p90jr- One of the best, and quite possibly THE best, envelope-controlled 'swell' pedals ever made is the VFE BumbleBee (shown below), particularly the latest, last iterations that were made.* It so easily outclasses and utterly dismisses the very overrated, discontinued Boss SG-1 Slow Gear pedal that people pay stupid prices for (I would never bother with an SG-1 even for cheap, unless it was just to resell it for a profit- which I would feel was unethical, like I was deceiving someone and taking undue advantage of them.)

I would not be surprised in the least if the BumbleBee also surpasses the TC Crescendo, though I have not tried one myself. I'll add that IF you can FIND a VFE BumbleBee for sale, it will likely cost a good deal more than $45... But, the BumbleBee's quality and performance are easily very well worth it. (I don't know about the Crescendo, but the SG-1, SV2, and BumbleBee are all 100% analog.)

The BumbleBee includes an optical compressor circuit, which can prevent your envelope swell 'tails' from getting prematurely cut-off, and also effect the swell in the way that a compressor can swell and bloom and breath; AND (Scott, I'm looking your way), it also includes a Mix control, for choosing and blending between the Envelope-Swell and Compressor sides of its busy hive- and effectively giving you most, or all, of what you want there, Scott. Although that will be the compressed signal, not a totally dry/clean attack blend...




* (The VFE BumbleBee Jr is a fine pedal, too, but definitely 'Junior' in its lacking some of the best features of the  'standard' BumbleBee.)

I also have a Guyatone SV2 Slow Volume, which is an improvement on the Boss SG-1; it was a very nice Christmas present from my dearly missed, sweet Mother... Better than the SG-1, and much smaller! But, the BumbleBee is considerably better yet...


 


The SV2 is from a line of Guyatone's micro pedals; almost like the Matchbox Cars of pedals!

My own SV2, to illustrate just how little it is:



       
 

[Winston Psmith]

11 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

 

I have plenty of volume pedals for swells from silence. That's a major component of what I do. But there's an effect that Bill Frissell uses a lot, where the attack is present, but the note or chord swells in after that, rather like a pedal steel effect. It's subtle & almost sounds like a very heavy compression thing with a slow attack, slow enough that the natural attack is preserved.

@Scott Fraser- Couple of thoughts. Bill Frisell used one of the big green Line 6 Delay Modelers as part of his rig, and it could be that he was using the Auto-Volume Echo, which also doubles as an Attack Delay effect, like the Slow Gear or Crescendo. More recently, the Walrus SLO Reverb has a Rise effect, where the Reverb swells in behind your playing. Very nice . . .

[p90jr]

On 8/1/2022 at 8:41 PM, Scott Fraser said:

In my own occasional gigs if something goes down I can improvise around it. In my professional life, if something goes south it's witnessed by thousands of paying audience members. Thus, failure is not an option, out of equal amounts of respect to the artist as well as the audience. Hosa cables have failed me during two concerts in front of audiences. They will never be used in any professional application I am involved in.

I have plenty of volume pedals for swells from silence. That's a major component of what I do. But there's an effect that Bill Frissell uses a lot, where the attack is present, but the note or chord swells in after that, rather like a pedal steel effect. It's subtle & almost sounds like a very heavy compression thing with a slow attack, slow enough that the natural attack is preserved. It's different than a swell from silence, though he may be doing it with a volume pedal which only attenuates by 6dB or so, or he's just so deft with the pedal that he can control it that well. But I was thinking that an automatic attack delay box with a blend to keep the attacks intact, just quieter than the swelling sustain, would get that sound. I just love Frissell's sound & approach & getting a little closer to that sense of chords blooming after the attack is very appealing.

I'd have to see a clip of exactly what you're referencing, but I know/have seen Frissell use the Electro Harmonix Freeze pedal in a manner that you're describing... it holds a single note or chord kind of like a loop but a little different, and he is a master at using it to create ambient sounds with how he attacks it... or maybe he's using some kind of swell thing or gate before it... 

here...
 

 

[p90jr]

15 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

@Scott Fraser- Couple of thoughts. Bill Frisell used one of the big green Line 6 Delay Modelers as part of his rig, and it could be that he was using the Auto-Volume Echo, which also doubles as an Attack Delay effect, like the Slow Gear or Crescendo. More recently, the Walrus SLO Reverb has a Rise effect, where the Reverb swells in behind your playing. Very nice . . .

It does seem to be the Line 6 Delay Modeler into the EHX Freeze pedal...

[Scott Fraser]

Unfortunately Bill isn't doing the kind of thing in that video that I'm hearing. My understanding is he never uses a compressor pedal, and his guitar tech pretty much says his sound just comes out of his technique and doesn't really get altered in the studio. Here's an example: 

 

[Caevan O’Shite]

52 minutes ago, Scott Fraser said:

Unfortunately Bill isn't doing the kind of thing in that video that I'm hearing. My understanding is he never uses a compressor pedal, and his guitar tech pretty much says his sound just comes out of his technique and doesn't really get altered in the studio. Here's an example: 
 

 

@Scott Fraser- I'll have to try to get a similar swell/bloom effect with my VFE BumbleBee later on; I'll report back...
          

 

[Dave Bryce]

I had an old De Armond 1602 I used for a while, but it’s older than a bunch of my friends.  😏

 

Recently picked up a Morley Power Wah mainly to use as volume control - I really like it a lot.

 

 

dB

[Ivan May]

Joe Zawinul used a Mutron Volume Wah for much of his keyboard effects in Weather Report.

[p90jr]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:10 PM, Scott Fraser said:

Unfortunately Bill isn't doing the kind of thing in that video that I'm hearing. My understanding is he never uses a compressor pedal, and his guitar tech pretty much says his sound just comes out of his technique and doesn't really get altered in the studio. Here's an example: 

 

A good low wattage amp IS a compressor, especially with good tube sag and set up for a little slower response... I think that's just Bill's touch and fingers in conjunction with his delay pedal...

[Caevan O’Shite]

On 8/3/2022 at 2:10 PM, Scott Fraser said:

My understanding is he never uses a compressor pedal, and his guitar tech pretty much says his sound just comes out of his technique and doesn't really get altered in the studio.

 

15 hours ago, p90jr said:

I think that's just Bill's touch and fingers in conjunction with his delay pedal...

Forgive me, I haven't yet gotten around to my related BumbleBee experimentation...


Now...

Listening to the above and other examples, both electric and un-plugged acoustic flat-top, I can ascertain that: 

• SOME of Frisell's swelling, blooming sounds are derived via his "touch", his technique, such as deftly muting/damping and releasing, so that the attack is minimized while the overall volume increases slightly- subtlety and precision both being key.

 

• SOME swells, sometimes, must be from manipulating a volume-pedal or control- likely an off-camera volume-pedal underfoot; this may or may not be blended in parallel with a 'direct' signal, and, sometimes, said swells were simple volume-swells. These blooming, swelling effects are often very similar, but also vary from one recording or video to the next. 

 

• MOST, perhaps ALL, are affected and effected and enhanced by letting open and fretted strings ring out sympathetically and freely.
   
• And in one video, he was playing in a room full of instruments, many or all of them acoustic- and clearly ringing sympathetically in the background.
  
  Clearly I have clouded the matter.
   
  

[Scott Fraser]

This just showed up in this morning's email, which looks to get closest to what I'm after:

 

[Winston Psmith]

3 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

This just showed up in this morning's email, which looks to get closest to what I'm after:

 

 

 

One issue with Pigtronix - they shed product lines almost as quickly as they introduce them.

 

Also, IIRC, this looks, and sounds, much like an update of a previous Compressor/Attack Delay pedal, the Philosopher King. They've simplified the control panel a great deal, but in principle, it's treading much the same ground.

 

[hurricane hugo]

Glad I saw this topic; I was going to post that Pigtronix Gloamer video in cool new effects, but Scott's got that handled, so...I know 2 guys using this, and they each say they'll never use any other volume pedal. Damn near $300, but they tell me it's worth every cent.

 

 

[Scott Fraser]

I saw those Lehle pedals a while back when planning a complete upgrade/overhaul/rethink of my effects world, but my rig is based around 4 volume pedals, so that's rather out of the question. Impressive unit if you just need one & cost is no object.

[Winston Psmith]

11 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

I saw those Lehle pedals a while back when planning a complete upgrade/overhaul/rethink of my effects world, but my rig is based around 4 volume pedals, so that's rather out of the question. Impressive unit if you just need one & cost is no object.

 

@Scott Fraser - I have to ask, what model Volume, or Expression Pedals are you currently using? I've been hanging on to an old Ibanez VL10, because it doubles as a Volume/Pan Pedal.

[Scott Fraser]

I'm currently using Ernie Ball pedals. My new software rig is based around a MOTU Ultralite interface. The Ernie Ball pedals I own are high impedance, so the volume curve absolutely doesn't work with the MOTU's line ins & outs. It's sort of either on or off. Ernie Ball makes a low impedance version, which fix this, but I'm already heavily invested in existing pedals. Zeppelin Design Labs makes a replacement preamp mod for these pedals, https://zeppelindesignlabs.com/product/vpm-1-volume-pedal-mod/ , which I've ordered & am about halfway through the soldering/assembly process. I'll know soon if this works smoothly with the MOTU & order three more if it's good. Otherwise, I can sell the pedals & buy the low impedance version. (x4) But I need to get past this hardware issue before I can start to work designing a software based replacement for the two racks, which are way too heavy & full of 25 year old noisy hardware processors.

[Winston Psmith]

21 hours ago, Scott Fraser said:

. . . which are way too heavy & full of 25 year old noisy hardware processors.

 

Like these?

[Caevan O’Shite]

2 hours ago, Winston Psmith said:

 

Like these?

O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0O0H, Vortex and Quadraverb... !! I had such a crush on the Quadraverb back in '88... !! Those reverbs... I plugged my guitar in and was washed away in ancient subterranean stone networks of water and magic that I'd previously heard in recurring dreams... !! For various reasons, nearly a couple of years later I wound up getting a DigiTech DSP-256XL, which was pretty outstanding in its own right, all-around... The Vortex is largely unmatched to this day. Please correct me if I'm wrong!!
        
 

[Winston Psmith]

@Caevan O’Shite- The Pedaltrain Pro "control" 'board for all the footswitches & EXP pedals is pretty absurd, in its own right. One reason I'm also looking into Volume/EXP pedals.

 

There is nothing quite like the Vortex, sorry to say, and no one has made a real effort at re-creating it. Some of the FX Algorithms behave almost like Modular Synthesis.

[p90jr]

I like the Gloamer demo... but I'm trying to figure out if it will do anything I can't already do with all the pedals I have (and the HX Stomp, which I have hardly delved into as far as stereo effects)... I'm currently using the Crescendo with my Janglebox Nano or Barber Tone Press compressors, and tremolo pedals...

I guess if a used one pops up cheaply, or as a SDOTD, I'll jump on it immediately...