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Rock/Blues soloing issue Major Keys


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15 minutes ago, synthizen2 said:

 

Yeah, there are times when things get a little dicey, depending on the "feel" that a particular blues tune is trying to convey. For some tunes, you might not know if it's a major or minor blues until you've played through it. One tune my classic rock covers band does is called "Messing With The Kid" by Junior Wells. On that one (which I declare to be essentially a Major blues), you can play in either a major or minor blues scale, or alternate between them, and it all sounds good either way. Focus on the minor when you want it to sound that way, go major on certain passages when it "feels right" that way, etc.

 

This approach works over multiple styles. When I was new to improvising (after about 10 years of classical lessons), one of the first things I learned was the Cm blues scale; I experimented over a 4-octave range, using triplets and straight 8ths over some basic LH blues changes.  After that it was on to Dm blues, in more of a fast shuffle rock style; that effort was inspired by Neal Doughty's playing on the REO song, 157 Riverside Ave. Over the next year I figured out finger assignments for the remaining minor blues scales. 

Somewhere in those early, improv years the connection between the minor blues scale and its relative major key kicked in for me.  A repurposed minor blues scale works well over a variety of changes in many styles. Though classic examples can be found all over the Floyd Cramer bag o' tricks (including the basic Pentatonic scale - without the b3 found in the Major blues scale), it's useful almost everywhere.  Then I discovered what synthizen2 noted above: You can mix 'n match within key centers, depending on the changes and using your ears. 

 

Slightly OT: My next frontier - over the past few years -  has been delving deeper into RH 'outside' patterns.  A lot of over-analytical tutorials on that have left me somewhat 'in the weeds', but by creating tension/resolution with scale patterns based on extensions, I've figured out a few tricks.  Just wish there was more practical guidance available, like a cheat-sheet with lots of ideas similar to one a jazz teacher provided : playing RH patterns based on the B major arpeggio (or B7 scale) over a LH F7 shell (R 5 b7, or rootless - b7 3 5,  b7 3 13, etc.); ultimately an F7 b9b5 sort of thing.  I relate better to poly chordal approaches, vs extracting ideas from jazz-theory specifics; feel strong in classical and basic pop-type theory, but my eyes will glaze over if I read about one more doubly altered modal scale. :pop:

'Someday, we'll look back on these days and laugh; likely a maniacal laugh from our padded cells, but a laugh nonetheless' - Mr. Boffo.

 

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2 hours ago, Al Quinn said:

I think this is a good demonstration / tutorial

 

 

 

This is a good video but I did laugh after his demonstration of how to apply scale, when he says "I was literally only taking notes from Chuck's blues scale".... the scale contains ten of the twelve notes!

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Yeah, while switching between the major and minor blues scales is an approach that leads to great music there’s also a hybrid approach where we can freely go back and forth between the major and minor blues scales on a note by note basis. Doing so gives us 9 of the 10 notes he mentioned. The tenth note is the chromatic passing note between the 5th and 6th degree of the scales which is very useful. These thoughts can be helpful when practicing but on the bandstand it just gets down to knowing what the notes sounds like and being able to play them in musical ways.

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IMO - that leading tone is a valid member of the "blues scale" - (in C)  c, eflat, f, fsharp, g, bflat, b (c).  Which means that relative major blues scale becomes (in C) - c, d, eflat, e, g, g#, a (c).  That's a great sound, IMO 

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9 hours ago, synthizen2 said:

Overthinking things intellectually is often the first wrong step to take. The idea is to just "be musical" about it. Listen to the masters (i.e. BB King, good example). Get into the "blues groove". The scales and notes involved will just come naturally.

 

Yeah, there are times when things get a little dicey, depending on the "feel" that a particular blues tune is trying to convey. For some tunes, you might not know if it's a major or minor blues until you've played through it. One tune my classic rock covers band does is called "Messing With The Kid" by Junior Wells. On that one (which I declare to be essentially a Major blues), you can play in either a major or minor blues scale, or alternate between them, and it all sounds good either way. Focus on the minor when you want it to sound that way, go major on certain passages when it "feels right" that way, etc.

 

This

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16 hours ago, Morrissey said:

I was literally only taking notes from Chuck's blues scale".... the scale contains ten of the twelve notes!

I think of that scale as the 3rd, 5th, 7th - with two "leading notes" (tone below and semitone below) for each one. So in C:

E (with D and D#)

G (with F and F#)

Bb (with Ab and A)

Plus C for the 10th note.

 

But that scale proves that learning to solo is not "learning a scale" or "learning a shape". No more than learning to write poetry amounts to knowledge of an alphabet of 26 letters. Chuck's knowledge of and taste in melody, plus his rhythmic and dynamic feel, define his skill here - not a decaphonic scale.

 

Cheers, Mike.

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I tend to go to the New Orleans piano playbook, similar to country piano, b3 slides up to M3, 6th is prominent, everything else is fair game depending on your lines, but for chordal riffs and licks this is my go to.

Gig keys: Hammond SKpro, Korg Vox Continental, Crumar Mojo 61, Crumar Mojo Pedals

 

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All this science, I don't understand.  I think of minor blues as what you play when you've lost your woman, your job, and you wake up with an empty wallet not remembering what happened after 9:30 the night before.  Major blues is more like your girfriend is making you visit her family and you can't find the right part to fix the transmission on your El Camino.

 

or is it the other way around?

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Gigging: Crumar Mojo 61, Hammond SKPro

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Use Audacity to slow what you want to play the hell down.  Then learn to play the parts right.  Over time you will accumulate so many licks you will be an unstoppable musical force of nature.

"It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne

 

"A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!!

So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt

 

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Underneath the OP's question is the issue of control and intention. Everyone loves the minor blues scale because it reliably sounds "good." The tension is written into it, and it's an immediate and "easy" way to make a solo sound like something. You don't have to mean it, for it to still sorta sound cool.

I do think it's harder to play with intention when using (for example) the major pent. It sounds great, but you really have to be putting those words in the right order for the sentence to mean a lot.

I think OP is noticing or bemoaning that it's way harder to capture that "cool" feeling with the options for major tonality, than with the tried and true minor blues scale. 

I think it's probably worth thinking in terms of some "graspable" smaller chunks like question/answer, or repeated phrases, or repetition with a difference. That is, maybe it's not really about which notes are in play, but about getting more comfortable deploying them in ways that have shape and meaning. One way to get there is to practice using a single note or two, and think about where they'll go, as opposed to what they are. As soon as your ear starts to really want an additional note, you'll then be adding it because the solo wants it, and not just because it's "one of the notes in the mode." It's painful to take the time and start with a single-note solo, but it's one of the most constructive exercises you can do when you find you're a bit lost in the sea of scale-note possibilities.

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+1 on what MOI said. For practice, I like to restrict myself to very few notes in one key and experiment until I'm not thinking of the notes but only what they sound like, how to play them, and how to say something musical with those limited note choices. After awhile fluency sets in and I can move on to adding more notes or other groups of notes. It's an effective and rewarding way to practice because it forces melodic invention and subconscious familiarity with the sound and feel of the notes with almost no intellectual input. It quickly becomes just physical and aural stuff -- as it should be. 

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On 5/26/2022 at 6:45 AM, synthizen2 said:

One tune my classic rock covers band does is called "Messing With The Kid" by Junior Wells. On that one (which I declare to be essentially a Major blues), you can play in either a major or minor blues scale, or alternate between them, and it all sounds good either way. Focus on the minor when you want it to sound that way, go major on certain passages when it "feels right" that way, etc.

My blues-rock band has played that for years. I play sax on it and solo. That's one of the ones where I think of using (almost) all the notes in the chromatic scale -- going through some notes as passing tones, especially the major 3 and even the #1 and maj 7, as long as you end up emphasizing the 1 or dominant 7 or 5 or some note solidly in the major or minor blues scale.

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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On 5/29/2022 at 2:06 PM, MathOfInsects said:

I think it's probably worth thinking in terms of some "graspable" smaller chunks like question/answer, or repeated phrases, or repetition with a difference. That is, maybe it's not really about which notes are in play, but about getting more comfortable deploying them in ways that have shape and meaning. One way to get there is to practice using a single note or two, and think about where they'll go, as opposed to what they are. As soon as your ear starts to really want an additional note, you'll then be adding it because the solo wants it, and not just because it's "one of the notes in the mode." It's painful to take the time and start with a single-note solo, but it's one of the most constructive exercises you can do when you find you're a bit lost in the sea of scale-note possibilities.

 

On 5/29/2022 at 2:57 PM, Al Quinn said:

+1 on what MOI said. For practice, I like to restrict myself to very few notes in one key and experiment until I'm not thinking of the notes but only what they sound like, how to play them, and how to say something musical with those limited note choices. After awhile fluency sets in and I can move on to adding more notes or other groups of notes. It's an effective and rewarding way to practice because it forces melodic invention and subconscious familiarity with the sound and feel of the notes with almost no intellectual input. It quickly becomes just physical and aural stuff -- as it should be. 

I've been listening to videos by Kenny Werner, the "effortless mastery" dude. He says something very much like what MOI and Al Quinn are saying here: practice small bits, maybe just a few notes, until you can solo with them without thinking. When you perform, the pieces come together and fit without you having to think about how to make them happen musically. That's my rephrasing of the concept, but it makes a ton of sense to me.

 

So the answer to the OP's question becomes: solo on a major blues using only 2 or 3 notes until you automatically start to add notes that feel right to you. Don't think, just solo with a few notes and make them sound musical to you. It can be a little hard to do this because our conscious mind wants to do more. Resist the temptation until your playing becomes automatic or unconscious. This advice is hard for me to take. But I want to try to do it. I know, I know. Yoda says there is no try, there is only do. But doing can be hard, even for the simplest task. 

These are only my opinions, not supported by any actual knowledge, experience, or expertise.
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Expanding on what MOI and Al Quinn said.  Early on when working on blues and soloing, I went thru a period in which I would try to solo on a 12 bar blues using only two notes (root and flat 7), or use only one note.  This was a wonderful exercise for me - it forced me to focus on creating meaningful phrases in my "solo"  because I could no longer simply play a scale or run lots of notes.  What came out of this practice for me was a better conception making a solo out of distinct phrases each with a clear beginning and ending, and how to put those phrases together to make a fuller solo.  Once this idea got deeply ingrained in me, I then had someplace meaningful to use those 10 notes in the Chuck Leavell scale

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