Jazz chops - synonymous with “being good”?

[Calumet]

To address what the original poster said:

 

I read through this entire thread and only once did I see anything related to “language” or “vocabulary.” I would suggest that what the OP wants is some new language and ability to incorporate that into his current playing. But, at the same time, he seems unwilling or disinterested (for one reason or another) in really investigating the source of a lot of the vocabulary that would lead him to the improved facility he craves. 
 

You don’t have to be a “jazzer” (lol) to add some harmonic and rhythmic vocabulary to your playing. Some simple concepts, when applied in the right places, can add a ton of color and flavor to your playing, no matter what genre you are enmeshed in. 
 

There are a million method books out there of varying degrees of usefulness. One that I always recommend because it doesn’t deal at all with the whole “chord scale” trend is “Hip Licks for Saxophone” by Gregg Fishman. As the name implies, it’s a lick book, but it’s extremely well assembled, offering a ton of classic, usable language in an easily digestible format. It’s really up to the player to take these little bits of information and incorporate them and find ways to expand on them. (The “Licks” part of the title does the book a disservice, I think. It should be called “Hip Language,” because that is what separates blues guys from gospel guys from jazz guys - different language.)

 

 

[ProfD]

To @nadroj, I hope that your take away from this thread is to 1) be comfortable in your own skin as a musician and 2) play with like-minded musicians.  

 

Also, check out Jazz pianist Robert Glasper.  IMO, he's the cat who brings it all together musically. 😎

[allan_evett]

Great thread!  

 

Early on, my genre influences were classical, blues, a small amount of 'prog-rock', folk and a multi-style mash-up of Billy Joel and  Elton John. I studied jazz piano in college for approx. three years and covered the second keys chair in the jazz ensemble. Knew enough shell voicings and standards to cover cocktail gigs, but my leads were mostly 'inside playing'; still are, much of the time.  Did a 'straight jazz' gig one night, in my late 20s. Did get some polite applause/affirmation for a ballad or two that night, but the phone certainly didn't ring off the hook for jazz gigs afterward .  Though I continued to get calls from wedding/corporate gig bandleaders.  One leader, who's previous keyboardist was a Master of Jazz Piano grad from DePaul University was very frank with me, but in a refeshingly supportive manner.  He stated that while the guy could noodle every jazz scale all over the gig, he had little groove or sense of pocket. The leader hired me because I listened, stayed with the groove, and knew when to shut up and support the song.  Strangely enough, I did pick up one jazz job from that leader's guitarist - who was a regionally well-known player: The guy asked me to do a one-set concert of his originals for an early cable-TV recording, and his material was hard-core jazz. He and the sax player did cover most of the lead breaks, except for an original of mine he graciously included - which is more in the jazz-pop genre. Otherwise, I greatly enjoyed comping the changes and working the groove of the guitarist's originals. And it was fun picking up a few, outside patterns for future use.

 

Dave, your jazz expertise is intriguing, and I've enjoyed our conversations about that.  If we lived closer I would definitely take further lessons, as jazz continues to fascinate me.  And unlike the 'noodling' player mentioned above, you and many others here have the musicianship that gets the concept of ensemble playing. Over the past 40+ years of gigging I've learned tons o' stuff, but want to keep learning more. And often my rather wide scope of interest has been distracting to more pianistic goals, i.e. not just 'How did they play that?', but also 'How did they get that sound?'. Hence the interest in synths, and the stupendous amount of gear owned over several decades. 

 

So to answer the original question: Not. At. All.  Good, jazz players have my respect, but so do many other stylists who play little to no jazz.  There are still many to learn from, in all genres.  

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

A great thing about this board is that we all have access to each other. Just as the "hobbyist" has access to the views of the full-timer, so does the full-timer have access to the view of the "hobbyist." That latter part is important. We can get a little high off our own fumes. It's always good to be given a bit of "outside" perspective, whether or not we agree with it.

I do think that in freelance circles, jazzers consider the ability to play straight jazz as a mark of differentiation. On the flip side, plenty of guys are hesitant to put jazzers on gigs because they perceive a tendency to "play the chart" instead of the song. Neither point of view is more evolved than the other, it's just a never-the-twain.

If you only play rock or pop, "jazz" can be shorthand for any number of approaches that leave the ear or vernacular sometimes. Similarly, for straight-jazzers, "rock" or "pop" can be shorthand for anything not strictly in jazzbo-land. There's room out there (and in here) for all those realities. No one has a corner on "what music is."

Whatever you play, you can never consider it below you. It will come across in your approach. The music doesn't know you think you're too good for it, it just wants to be what it is.

 

[nadroj]

7 hours ago, ProfD said:

To @nadroj, I hope that your take away from this thread is to 1) be comfortable in your own skin as a musician and 2) play with like-minded musicians.  

 

Also, check out Jazz pianist Robert Glasper.  IMO, he's the cat who brings it all together musically. 😎

Thanks ProfD. That’s certainly something I’ve taken from it, and I’m glad my retrospective late night hotel room tirade sparked such a great discussion. 
 

Earlier in the thread someone mentioned it sounds like I’m trying to get the acceptance of my peers, and I think there’s been a bit of that. While it’s lessened a bit as I’ve moved into my 30s, acknowledging that has been helpful. 

 

Not that I need an internet forum’s opinion to relax in my own skin (or hey, maybe I do) but I’ve certainly had more peace sitting in front of the keyboard the past couple of days knowing what I want to play, and the direction I want to go in, and what I don’t have to try and make myself. 
 

3~ pages is too much for me to reply to individually, but I’ve read all the responses and have found them immensely helpful as usual. Thanks folks 🤙

[nadroj]

19 hours ago, Calumet said:

To address what the original poster said:

 

I read through this entire thread and only once did I see anything related to “language” or “vocabulary.” I would suggest that what the OP wants is some new language and ability to incorporate that into his current playing. But, at the same time, he seems unwilling or disinterested (for one reason or another) in really investigating the source of a lot of the vocabulary that would lead him to the improved facility he craves. 

 

 

Just to add a bit of context here - I’ve a bunch of slowed down files on my laptop of transcriptions I’ve taken from guys like Cory Henry, Shaun Martin, David Paich (he had some lovely runs on a live version of georgy porgy I simply had  to learn), Billy Preston, George Duke, Richard Tee (left hand in the “stuff’s stuff” live at Montreux solo is still kicking my ass but I’m getting there) Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder, etc. There’s even a Charlie Parker diminished run I’m working on just now, but that’s an exception. A lot of my practice time is taken up transcribing whole solos or licks by ear and figuring out how to fit the vocabulary into the funk and soul stuff I play. 
 

The deeper question in my OP was more akin to; am I shooting myself in the foot learning this stuff without delving further down history into straight jazz territory? That, thankfully, has been answered.

 

Just clarifying that it’s not for lack of ambition or willingness - more wanting to know whether or not I’m better off doing something else. Which has been answered! 

[timwat]

I'm going to guess there's more than a few of us on this thread who have a foot in jazz and the other in funk / soul too.

 

For what little it's worth, in my opinion a little bit of jazz goes a long way in funk / soul music. 

 

Playing straight jazz gigs regularly keeps the mind sharp, navigating changes, speaking the vocabulary. It's good for the heart and to continue to respect the music and those who came before. But funk / soul lives in a different address. It's in the same neighborhood, but it ain't the same house. I've made the mistake of losing an audience by being the displaced jazz guy in the middle of a funky burning groove. It's a lot like using garlic in your cooking...gotta stay greasy with a little garlic to taste.

 

In that sense, did anyone ever do it better than George Duke?

[Mills Dude]

56 minutes ago, timwat said:

In that sense, did anyone ever do it better than George Duke?

Nobody did it better than the Duke.  He did it all and a stint with Zappa too!

 

He also had the balls to put out a record with this cover.

[jazzpiano88]

2 hours ago, timwat said:

... did anyone ever do it better than George Duke?

 

No I don't believe so:   (I believe Reeze performed on this album as well)

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Ahhh ya got me blushing a little here, thanks. This seems like a lifetime ago. Wait, it practically IS a lifetime ago! 🙂