iPad sizes and specs for live stuff

[stoken6]

4 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I bought the 12.9" Pro with 512GB. Might as well be future proof. Thanks for the help, everyone!

Enjoy your Maserati, Jim - I can't deny I'm a little envious...

 

Cheers, Mike.

[MathOfInsects]

My timing is awesome as usual.

 

Enjoy, Jim. It's not like it won't be awesome to own that beast.

 

Congrats.

[Reezekeys]

36 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

But also essentially the same amount of quick if someone texts it to you instead of airdrops.

With Airdrop, an alert pops up letting me choose where to open it – and ForScore is one of the choices. Tap that, and two seconds later you're looking at the chart in ForScore. I'm not sure a chart texted to me from an Android user would do the same thing. Not to mention my iPad doesn't have a SIM card, it's wifi or bluetooth only, which might make it hard for anybody to text me a chart! And how would I get a chart to an Android tablet user? I suppose we could both connect to a local wifi network, then I can email it – but that would most likely not be  anywhere as quick and convenient as airdropping.

 

I have yet to be on a gig with tablet users from both camps needing to share charts, so I guess the answers to these burning questions will have to wait!

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'm going to devil's advocate, particularly since I've gone down this path myself:

 

Even if you have the money, there's really no reason to buy an ipad (specifically) of any kind for this job. About the only functions it will need to perform are those of ForScore/SheetReader, perhaps iRealPro, and maybe a word-processing app--though as as long as whatever you use also has internet access, you can (and probably should) just use Google Docs for your lyrics. But you can also just use any of the other "pdf reader" apps that host lyrics alphabetically for that as well.

That's practically a resting state for literally every tablet option out there. SheetReader and ForScore are basically the same apps for different platforms, and the other options are so baseline as to barely merit mentioning in a device's specs. (That is, it would be far more noteworthy if a tablet did NOT have the ability to display pdfs.)

IMHO, if you're not using the device as a Midi source or doing any processing of any kind, and you don't need it anyway for other reasons, I'd just buy the largest-screen Android tablet you can find and load up the 2 or 3 apps you'll ever use live. Save the money for a device or other item you'll get that money's worth out of. There is no benefit to up-powering this item, and in terms of wear and tear and potential breakage or damage, there's significant downside.

Plus, for gigs, you'd basically be Un-Ipading your device every time anyway. You'll turn off messages and mail and all other notifications, since they are guaran-f'ing-teed to come in right when you needed to turn a page to finish a line, and once you've done that, you no longer have an ipad, you have a simple reader (with a smaller screen than many of the Android offerings).

It's a little bit of an old-fashioned tendency to think we need an Ipad and it has to be the best and brightest, for this job. That's because it used to be true. Now it's (again, just my opinion) a step down to pay for all that engineering when all you really need is a large, clear screen and a long enough battery life to get you through a gig.

Yes, and no, depending on your needs and the job, like every other piece of gear we chat about here.  

If you do chord charts or lead sheets for yourself and or your band mates.  Sure, any computing device with a screen and pdf reader will do the job.  You don’t need a large screen, or a certain resolution or ratio.  And maybe you run VSTs you’ve already paid for on Win/macOS.  
 

However, if you work a lot with sheet music in addition to charts and lead sheets because the type of gigs you do require it - there really isn’t a better solution than a 12.9” iPad with forScore.  It’s unfortunate that this size screen is not available on less expensive models.  Alternatives include pre-owned, refurbished 12.9” iPads. 11” models. Samsung Galaxy Tab type device with MobileSheets.  

 

Pros of iOS and forScore:

built in camera and flash for scanning 

slim and lightweight 

silent operation 

excellent readability 

dedicated application with every function you could possibly need in an app

apple pencil

transfer/sharing of marked scores and entire set lists in forScore format at the job via airdrop, cloud drive, email, text, etc. 

third party support with mounts, cases, screen protectors, Bluetooth pedals

 

Like our dads told us, right tool for the right job.  Pick what works best for you.  

 

[drawback]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

100%. But also essentially the same amount of quick if someone texts it to you instead of airdrops. And Android has Nearby Share, same as Apple's Airdrop.

 

My friends who have made the scary leap away from i-products can't figure out why the rest of us are still dishing out all that cash for the letter 'i.' As time goes on and all tech advances, I agree more and more.

Perhaps not relevant but interesting story in today’s New York Times… clonk

[MathOfInsects]

40 minutes ago, drawback said:

Perhaps not relevant but interesting story in today’s New York Times… clonk

Yes, interesting, and on-point. It's basically an affinity-brand now. In part they have themselves to "blame," by literally creating or inventing segments of the market that then others had to race to compete in--including the entire concept of a "hidden" OS. But it's not like it used to be, where everyone else was just trying to compete. Android has been out ahead of Apple many times now in features and innovation, and was basically the reason Apple had to start paying attention to its crappy cameras and stodgy UI. Plus, it's not like Google is any kind of slouch when it comes to tech, cachet, and innovation. (cough cough looking at you MS cough cough)

 

In some cases Apple has flat-out lost the race. Are the new laptops even touchscreen? A non-touch interface in 2022 is like roll-down windows in a car. ("Windows" pun not intended.) In others, it's ahead or competitive (wearables, tablets, Ted Lasso!) but unabashedly overpriced, as a means of market differentiation.

The "cool" factor seems to be waning too, if my anecdotal experience is any guide. It used to be the "wow!" product on a bandstand was whatever new Apple product someone showed up with. Now it's much more frequently a cool tablet or phone from Google.

I'm typing this on a Mac desktop and use an iPad and an Iphone and a Mac laptop. So I too have that affinity. (Though when it came time to get computers for the kids I went with Chromebooks and gaming desktops.) Plus how much do you hate the green guys on the group chats, always screwing up our reaction emojis. But...I too am in the market for a larger-screen tablet for gig charts, and within a couple of weeks of beginning the search, I personally stopped considering Apple completely. There are larger screens, comparable apps, and cool(er?) features to be had at much lower prices for comparable tech, if you're willing to sever the smug stem of status quo.

 

Having said that...if I had the money to spend painlessly? Yeah, I'd have gone for the Maserati too.

[bfields]

What's the stylus situation for low-end android tablets these days?

 

That's another thing I'd want to check out, if you ever expect to be able to scribble notes on a chart during a rehearsal.  Last I was in the market (several years ago, so I dunno if it's changed), spending more money could make a big difference to the writing experience.

[ElmerJFudd]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Are the new laptops even touchscreen? A non-touch interface in 2022 is like roll-down windows in a car. ("Windows" pun not intended.)

There is always this shadow hanging over large, successful companies.  When will they become too large, short sighted and slow.   An inevitability - as we've seen in the past with Microsoft missing mobile, or Intel missing ARM.   Can this  happen at Apple, or Google or any big tech company?  Of course. 

 

But touchscreen laptops?  This isn't a signal of a company in decline.  No one has really figured out the touchscreen interface in the laptop format.  I personally have never been interested in holding my arm straight out in front of me to tap or draw on a touch screen - the notion has "gorilla arm" written all over it.   Apple is very good at UI and user experience.  iOS and iOS apps are designed for touch screen.  macOS and the other desktop operating systems are not.  I'd personally LOVE a touch screen Mac Book Air Convertible.   Fold it into tablet and it runs the iOS GUI, open it to use as a laptop and it runs macOS GUI - Boom! no need for an iPad.  Is Apple in a rush to push out a convertible?  Obviously not, they have a very successful iPad business running.  However... the convergence of Apple silicon is an interesting twist in this plot.  As is the ability to run iOS apps on macOS.   Some sort of merging of operating systems is possible - what form factor the hardware that runs this would look like remains to be seen.  

[MathOfInsects]

34 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

But touchscreen laptops?  This isn't a signal of a company in decline.  No one has really figured out the touchscreen interface in the laptop format. 

I can't agree with this statement. Many if not most Chromebooks are touchscreen. So is my daughter's all-in-one desktop computer. Every single one of the cheap-ass laptops distributed in my kids' school is touchscreen. Apple is behind the curve on this, by a significant margin.

 

Here's the best way to describe the state of things. From the very first iphone and ipad, from my kids' earliest seconds of consciousness, they each immediately knew instinctively how to operate both. That's how good and "human-integrated" Apple's UI and other elements of industrial design were. There was literally no learning curve for either kid, for either device. That's what made those products so revolutionary and successful IMO. They invented a market and then made it seem inevitable through brilliant and perceptive engineering.

Fast-forward to today. Every time my now-teenage kids use my laptop, they instinctively attempt to navigate by touchscreen. This is because almost literally every other computer they encounter in their lives--and certainly every laptop--works this way, including those cheap-ass laptops at school. So for the first time, Apple is not speaking an innate language for a lot of users. It's a language, one older types are used to. But not the coin of the realm. To me that is a huge miscalculation, at least in the short term. Sure, old folks will keep reinvesting in their tech. But they are losing their future market.

To be sure, they will get there. If I can think of it, obviously they can. But "finally catching up with the rest of the market" is the opposite of the position they have traditionally been in, and I think they have only had the luxury of foot-dragging because of the fanboy factor.


 

[tfort]

ForScore is the most common score reader, but I also have (and prefer) Newzik. Its native storage format is MusicXML rather than PDF, which allows it to transpose and act on the music, rather than just serve as a substitute for paper. 
 

Depending on your keyboard stand, there are several options for how to hold your iPad. I have three different sizes of the K&M tablet holders, and use the 19790 tablet holder. There are some newer models, and several ways of mounting to your stand, your mic stand, etc. Some options are described, but your keyboard stand may have a good accessory option.

https://www.k-m.de/brand/en/all-ipad-smartphone-and-tablet-holder/

Using an iPad holder gets tricky if you keep your iPad in a case: I don’t. 

I’d for sure get Dorico for the iPad, and possibly take a look at StaffPad as well. If you might be doing general purpose computing with your iPad, the Apple Magic Keyboard is pretty handy. I have an Apple Pencil 2 and don’t use it as much as I thought I would, but still like it. 

[Stokely]

I personally have little interest in touchscreens on computers or for that matter synths.  I'm faster and feel more precise with old-school keyboards, buttons and wheels, the exception being when using a touchscreen to type in patch names

Question for you newer ipad users, in particular the ones with usb C connections - Has anyone used this with a (music) keyboard that has an interface?  For example, my MODX.   I use the camera connection kit to go from lightning to standard usb, which then connects to the MODX with a square-end usb cable.  My CCK also powers the ipad by having a 2nd lightning port, which I connect up to power, it stays that way for the whole gig.

I have a 4th-gen ipad, I think it's 9.7", I'd like to go with a newer mini eventually but I think they are usb c.  I do prefer usb c generally, I wish everything I had used it, but only if I can still connect it to the MODX and have one cable handle midi and audio.

[ElmerJFudd]

12 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I can't agree with this statement. Many if not most Chromebooks are touchscreen. So is my daughter's all-in-one desktop computer. Every single one of the cheap-ass laptops distributed in my kids' school is touchscreen. Apple is behind the curve on this, by a significant margin.

 

Here's the best way to describe the state of things. From the very first iphone and ipad, from my kids' earliest seconds of consciousness, they each immediately knew instinctively how to operate both. That's how good and "human-integrated" Apple's UI and other elements of industrial design were. There was literally no learning curve for either kid, for either device. That's what made those products so revolutionary and successful IMO. They invented a market and then made it seem inevitable through brilliant and perceptive engineering.

Fast-forward to today. Every time my now-teenage kids use my laptop, they instinctively attempt to navigate by touchscreen. This is because almost literally every other computer they encounter in their lives--and certainly every laptop--works this way, including those cheap-ass laptops at school. So for the first time, Apple is not speaking an innate language for a lot of users. It's a language, one older types are used to. But not the coin of the realm. To me that is a huge miscalculation, at least in the short term. Sure, old folks will keep reinvesting in their tech. But they are losing their future market.

To be sure, they will get there. If I can think of it, obviously they can. But "finally catching up with the rest of the market" is the opposite of the position they have traditionally been in, and I think they have only had the luxury of foot-dragging because of the fanboy factor.


 

I understand completely what you are saying.  I'm suggesting, and you clearly disagree, that touch screens on desktops and laptops - regardless of how many manufacturers include them on various models (excluding convertible models that fold into tablet form), are fairly useless but for the occasional tap or "pinch and zoom" due to the upright positioning. Additionally, due to  desktop OSes not being resized and re-worked for a touch screen interface, it's clunky.  It's simply not like Apple to throw out their obsession with UI and user experience to stick a touch screen on a laptop or monitor without changing the interface.   This philosophy in addition to a booming iPad business is what keeps Apple from putting a touch screen on a Mac.  I don't expect you to agree with it.  I'm not sure I agree with it.  But that is the explanation as I see it.    That said, I'd buy a convertible MacBook air that folds into a tablet in a heartbeat.  I just don't believe we'll see it right away. 

 

Anyway, that's today.  Things can change very rapidly.  With Apple silicon in both iPads and Macs, a merging of operating systems is highly possible.  I'm curious if Apple will do a MS Surface Studio type machine at some point.  This is clearly a design where it's all about the touch screen.  Microsoft beating them to this and having to wait for Adobe to port their creative suite to iOS/iPad was definitely a screw up.  

 

 

[Reezekeys]

33 minutes ago, Stokely said:

I do prefer usb c generally, I wish everything I had used it, but only if I can still connect it to the MODX and have one cable handle midi and audio.

 

Someone on this forum must be dealing with this. Wouldn't this work?

 

https://www.amazon.com/CableCreation-Printer-Compatible-Printers-Aluminum/dp/B0769DMN7R/ref=asc_df_B0769DMN7R/

 

I'm late to the tablet party but I can now see myself ditching the laptop for almost all my gigs. A replacement for my old Air 2 is inevitable, so I'd like to know how this works. I take it the MODX can mix external audio received at its USB port, right? That's nice. The options for those without that perc are a dongly mess, now that headphone jacks are history.

[stoken6]

10 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Someone on this forum must be dealing with this. Wouldn't this work?

 

https://www.amazon.com/CableCreation-Printer-Compatible-Printers-Aluminum/dp/B0769DMN7R/ref=asc_df_B0769DMN7R/

 

I'm late to the tablet party but I can now see myself ditching the laptop for almost all my gigs. A replacement for my old Air 2 is inevitable, so I'd like to know how this works. I take it the MODX can mix external audio received at its USB port, right? That's nice. The options for those without that perc are a dongly mess, now that headphone jacks are history.

That should work. Not sure if the MODX can supply enough power to keep an iPad charged? (There are ways around that, most of them being a variation on "dongly mess").

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Yep, and as much as I hate that decision (for general use as well as music), that's Apple's call.  Even though I use the MODX to take in audio over usb--which is great--in a pinch I could use the headphone outs on mine.  My other keyboard, a Kurzweil, is actually set up nicely for it, it has external inputs that are a single 1/8" jack.

I haven't gigged with a laptop but I do all my home recordings with software instruments.  With one or two exceptions, my laptop has far greater capabilities and better sound than my ipad, comparing the apps I have anyway.  Those exceptions are B-3X, which is a better organ than the Logic Pro stock organ I use, and the Moog apps Model D and Model 15.  Sound-wise they rival anything my laptop plugin Moogs can do.   The standout plugin that I'd LOVE to have on an ipad is uhe's Repro.   Diva wouldn't bother me either!   Zeeon is my favorite polysynth on IOS, but it's effects in particular aren't that great.  I haven't gotten into a more complex setup with IOS mainstage-like functionality.  Normally I use use B-3X in standalone mode, and if I wanted I'd do the same with Model D, just put each on different midi channels and let them respond when they get something intended for them.

The main reason I use the ipad over a laptop: I can velcro it flat to my keyboard.  That's literally the main reason.  I don't know where I'd put a laptop where it would be safe and easy to use, our stages can sometimes be very small.   The ipad would probably be there regardless since I use mixer apps, google drive for setlists, and an app to hold lyrics because I can't seem to remember them very well.  I'm considering using Midiflow to send patch changes and possibly do some routing, but I don't care for it's preset listings (can't re-order them).  I'd love to hear recommendations on similar apps, or if anyone is using a solid mainstage equivalent.  I have "Keystage lite" but haven't really dug in.

My dongly mess isn't that bad, due to the MODX handling audio.  I have the ipad flat on the top, and the CCK with it's own little velcro pad sitting next to it.  One short usb cable (it could be even shorter) goes right down to the usb connection on the MODX, the power cable runs down with the other cables on my keyboard stand and plugs in to where the keyboards, mixer, pedalboard plugs in.  It only takes me 30 seconds or so to set up.  This reminds me to get a black lightning cable, the white one I use for power kind of stands out!   I'll get a pic or two of it at our next show.

[HammondDave]

My iPad setup is very simple.  Fortunately, the Mojo 61 has a nice flat top surface. Pay the extra money and get a good case. This is essential when gigging with an iPad.

 

This ZUGU case is what I bought and its worth every penny!

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B093R1SGLJ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I understand completely what you are saying.  I'm suggesting, and you clearly disagree, that touch screens on desktops and laptops - regardless of how many manufacturers include them on various models (excluding convertible models that fold into tablet form), are fairly useless but for the occasional tap or "pinch and zoom" due to the upright positioning. Additionally, due to  desktop OSes not being resized and re-worked for a touch screen interface, it's clunky.  It's simply not like Apple to throw out their obsession with UI and user experience to stick a touch screen on a laptop or monitor without changing the interface.   This philosophy in addition to a booming iPad business is what keeps Apple from putting a touch screen on a Mac.  I don't expect you to agree with it.  I'm not sure I agree with it.  But that is the explanation as I see it.    That said, I'd buy a convertible MacBook air that folds into a tablet in a heartbeat.  I just don't believe we'll see it right away. 

 

Anyway, that's today.  Things can change very rapidly.  With Apple silicon in both iPads and Macs, a merging of operating systems is highly possible.  I'm curious if Apple will do a MS Surface Studio type machine at some point.  This is clearly a design where it's all about the touch screen.  Microsoft beating them to this and having to wait for Adobe to port their creative suite to iOS/iPad was definitely a screw up.  

 

 

We're obviously way OT now, but...I actually think we're agreeing. It's just that you're (nicely) explaining why it is, and I'm more focused on the implications of the fact that it is. I don't think it would matter if you used touchscreen more than once, in the same way most people never touch the paddle shifters they paid extra to have in their family sedan. Once it's an option, every second you don't offer it is a second you're behind.

Having said that, as someone who bounces back and forth between my Macbook and the kids' HP Chromebooks, I think you might be underestimating how often we interact with specific places on a screen. Being able to tap instead of mouse over is a very large difference in experience, and even if that were the only difference, it's not minor. 

The discussion reminds me a little of the ones Apple spawned with its initial offerings. Like, "Why would I need the internet on my phone?? I use it like three times a day, and I'm always in my office then." It's the aspirational factor Apple's lost the race on, at least with laptops, probably with tablets too, and I don't think it's insignificant. 

But there's lots of other cool stuff out there Apple's lost the race to the egg on. Those foldables, the Surface, AI. I think they figure if they don't get there first they shouldn't bother. But IMO that's legacy thinking from when they were inventing markets. They need to be more nimble now.

 

On the other hand, Ted Lasso. That show makes up for a multitude of sins.
 

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

We're obviously way OT now, but...I actually think we're agreeing. It's just that you're (nicely) explaining why it is, and I'm more focused on the implications of the fact that it is. I don't think it would matter if you used touchscreen more than once, in the same way most people never touch the paddle shifters they paid extra to have in their family sedan. Once it's an option, every second you don't offer it is a second you're behind.

Having said that, as someone who bounces back and forth between my Macbook and the kids' HP Chromebooks, I think you might be underestimating how often we interact with specific places on a screen. Being able to tap instead of mouse over is a very large difference in experience, and even if that were the only difference, it's not minor. 

The discussion reminds me a little of the ones Apple spawned with its initial offerings. Like, "Why would I need the internet on my phone?? I use it like three times a day, and I'm always in my office then." It's the aspirational factor Apple's lost the race on, at least with laptops, probably with tablets too, and I don't think it's insignificant. 

But there's lots of other cool stuff out there Apple's lost the race to the egg on. Those foldables, the Surface, AI. I think they figure if they don't get there first they shouldn't bother. But IMO that's legacy thinking from when they were inventing markets. They need to be more nimble now.

 

On the other hand, Ted Lasso. That show makes up for a multitude of sins.
 

I have a convertible HP EliteBook. It has a touch screen I rarely use.   For a little while I used it with MobileSheets folded, in portrait.  It’s 16:9 ratio unfortunately.  And the screen quality isn’t on par for readability, nor is its soft texture really designed for stylus use, markups, art, etc. where the  iPad, of course has a glass screen, excellent readability, works amazingly well with their Pencil. 

 

Now, granted, I prefer to do most tasks, especially editing, drawing automation, etc. with a good quality high res mouse.  My kid and her generational  peers prefer track pads.  A Multitouch screen like that guy - eh, Slate sells seems cool - if not expensive.  But I doubt I’d use it with Logic.  I’m happy mousing along.  I’ll tap a screen for stop and play, but the space bar is fine with me too. 

[drawback]

I've been a Mac guy forever, using an iMac since 2016 on my desktop and actually just use my iPad most of the time. Sometime between then and 2019 I put my 2010 MacBook Pro away in a drawer, and decided to give it away last year. During the pandemic I wasn't hanging around retail stores, so just after the New Year I finally took an in-person look at the new MacBook line. Almost the first thing I did was, out of habit, touch the screen. I guess it's something about size and portability that implies you should be able to do that.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I have a convertible HP EliteBook. It has a touch screen I rarely use.   For a little while I used it with MobileSheets folded, in portrait.  It’s 16:9 ratio unfortunately.  And the screen quality isn’t on par for readability, nor is its soft texture really designed for stylus use, markups, art, etc. where the  iPad, of course has a glass screen, excellent readability, works amazingly well with their Pencil. 

 

Now, granted, I prefer to do most tasks, especially editing, drawing automation, etc. with a good quality high res mouse.  My kid and her generational  peers prefer track pads.  A Multitouch screen like that guy - eh, Slate sells seems cool - if not expensive.  But I doubt I’d use it with Logic.  I’m happy mousing along.  I’ll tap a screen for stop and play, but the space bar is fine with me too. 

Understandable. This might be analogous with the fact that lots of people were perfectly and legitimately happy with their flip-phones after the Iphone came out, and continued to be for many iterations. BUT...it's still uncharacteristic for Mac, as a brand, to find itself being the flip-phone someone is "fine sticking with," instead of the tech that the cool kids were jumping ahead with. That's where they find themselves in laptop universe right now. 

[analogika]

39 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Understandable. This might be analogous with the fact that lots of people were perfectly and legitimately happy with their flip-phones after the Iphone came out, and continued to be for many iterations. BUT...it's still uncharacteristic for Mac, as a brand, to find itself being the flip-phone someone is "fine sticking with," instead of the tech that the cool kids were jumping ahead with. That's where they find themselves in laptop universe right now. 

I disagree. 

 

The use cases where a touch screen on a laptop would be useful that aren't at least equally well-served (if not better) by an iPad are extremely rare. 

 

The situations where I'd think a touch screen would be cool in a production environment, the laptop is nowhere near where I'd need the touchscreen. 

Sticking a touch screen on there, to use your metaphor, feels a lot more like putting a stylus on the flip phone AFTER somebody's already gone and invented the iPhone and shown beyond the shadow of a doubt, for better or for worse, what the future looks like. 

 

[MathOfInsects]

9 minutes ago, analogika said:

I disagree. 

 

The use cases where a touch screen on a laptop would be useful that aren't at least equally well-served (if not better) by an iPad are extremely rare. 

 

The situations where I'd think a touch screen would be cool in a production environment, the laptop is nowhere near where I'd need the touchscreen. 

Sticking a touch screen on there, to use your metaphor, feels a lot more like putting a stylus on the flip phone AFTER somebody's already gone and invented the iPhone and shown beyond the shadow of a doubt, for better or for worse, what the future looks like. 

 

Except....it's already on there, on many, many laptops. So it's not a theoretical discussion of how useful it would be if, if it existed. It's already a well-integrated aspect across the market. And I feel certain you are not arguing that a touchscreen laptop is somehow more regressive than the old non-touch predecessor, correct? 

It's natural to get caught up in the practical argument, from any angle. It's particularly natural if you, yourself, can't imagine needing the function or product. But this is not a practical issue, it's one of market-position. Apple has missed the boat on this, and only gotten away with it because of how many people will buy their products anyway. 

And now, on top of it, they have killed a horse. Beaten it right to death. Is there no end to their brutality??

[ElmerJFudd]

57 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Understandable. This might be analogous with the fact that lots of people were perfectly and legitimately happy with their flip-phones after the Iphone came out, and continued to be for many iterations. BUT...it's still uncharacteristic for Mac, as a brand, to find itself being the flip-phone someone is "fine sticking with," instead of the tech that the cool kids were jumping ahead with. That's where they find themselves in laptop universe right now. 

Excellent article on the topic replete with quotes from Apple leadership about why MacBooks don’t have touch screens.   Again, just explaining why, what the issues are and the hoops that would need to be jumped through for that to change.  
 

https://www.imore.com/where-are-touch-screen-macs

[MathOfInsects]

Underneath this discussion is the (accurate) implication that we have not reached the arrival point between tablets and laptops. There is almost certainly a species of product yet to take over that has shared lineage between the two items, and obsolesces both.

[ElmerJFudd]

15 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Underneath this discussion is the (accurate) perception that we have not reached the arrival point between tablets and laptops. There is almost certainly a species of product yet to take over that has shared lineage between the two items, and obsolesces both.

I agree 100% 

macOS has not been redesigned to be touch friendly.  It is designed for mouse and track pad, including multitouch gestures.  

macOS applications are not designed to be touch friendly.  I would not be interested to do a blessed thing in Final Cut or Logic with a touch screen. 

One CAN attach a touch screen to a Mac if one wants too.  But one can't expect an Apple-like user experience from it.  

 

Apple has a GUI on iOS that is designed from the ground up for touch and hardware to match it.  The operating system and 14 years worth of iOS app are designed for the touch screen and pencil.  You can even attach a keyboard, mouse, track pad to it if you prefer it.  But, it's really designed for touch use.  

 

Most recently, iOS apps can run on macOS and both the iPad Pro and the Mac are using the same Apple silicon.  I expect this to mean something akin to convergence at some point.  If Apple were to do a convertible of some sort where you get an iOS interface when flipped and macOS interface when in laptop position that would be a very interesting product to me.  Many developers already have both iOS and macOS versions of their software where the GUI is the main difference between the two versions.  Maybe the position of the hardware calls for one or the other interface?   

 

Again, discussed at length in the article linked above, Where are the touch screen macs?

[MathOfInsects]

17 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Excellent article on the topic replete with quotes from Apple leadership about why MacBooks don’t have touch screens.   Again, just explaining why, what the issues are and the hoops that would need to be jumped through for that to change.  
 

https://www.imore.com/where-are-touch-screen-macs

2018, and they were already being called out for and giving VERY unsatisfying answers to it. They were explaining why people wouldn't like a thing people were already liking. Four years later, they are basically the last record company to put a song online. 

 

They missed this one, period. 

It doesn't mean they won't take the lead again on whatever's next. But they tanked this one, market-wise (again, ignoring any questions of practicality/use/programming/investment).

[Mills Dude]

23 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I bought the 12.9" Pro with 512GB. Might as well be future proof. Thanks for the help, everyone!

I think you made the right choice.  This thing can last a long time, maybe even 10 years, and Apple is better than most at keeping IOS compatible on older hardware as it ages.   I've got an iPad Air 2, 7 years old at this point.  It gets light use but at least it still usable and would certainly work fine for reading charts.

 

There are certainly cheaper ways to go, but the iPad and IOS in general is a good stable end user platform that is proving itself useful for musicians.  An android tablet, Wintel touchcreen laptop, or MS surface could do the job with no problems but as is said for many of the apple products, the iPad just works so well and there's a large ecosystem of support and accessories available.  

 

Like @Reezekeyspointed out, having something like AirDrop at the ready is much simpler in a pinch than trying to share someone's google drive or have them post to a dropbox.  Its a limited use case, but sounds like it really helped out Reeze.

 

I'm a tinkerer and I'm a bit cheap, I hate paying the Apple tax and can get by with tinkering on Wintel boxes and in the past have preferred Android to IOS at least for my phone.   I could definitely hobble together a solution with 'cheaper' tech but why make my life more complicated.  I'm a tech savvy guy, coder for 30+ years, Unix/C/C++, java, windows, MacOS and now web stack (javascript, html).  I've built my career being platform agnostic when I was thrust into having to port unix code to Windows back in the 90s.  But when I put the gigging hat on, I just want it to work, tech-geek guy is taking a break.

 

Windows 10&11 do support tablet mode, but while you can manipulate a standard (i.e. legacy) app with touch, it's not ideal.  Newer windows apps built for specifically for the modern UI work much better but dev shops haven't really embraced the new windows API.   Yeah, macbooks don't support touch interface, but frankly nobody's storming the castle at Apple to demand it.  The IOS ecosystem is so rich with apps, I don't find it necessary.  Grafting touch onto MacOs  is probably an engineering project Apple has no interest in.  Heck, in a few years I wouldn't be surprised if IOS is the de-facto OS for Apple across all their products. 

 

So back on the topic, good choice.  Sure it's too much machine for just showing charts, but screen size is paramount in this application.  You could always start experimenting with using the iPad as an instrument also.   

 

[ElmerJFudd]

48 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

2018, and they were already being called out for and giving VERY unsatisfying answers to it. They were explaining why people wouldn't like a thing people were already liking. Four years later, they are basically the last record company to put a song online. 

 

They missed this one, period. 

It doesn't mean they won't take the lead again on whatever's next. But they tanked this one, market-wise (again, ignoring any questions of practicality/use/programming/investment).

Did they?  Or was their decision to separate their tablet strategy (sharing DNA with their smart phone) from their laptops part of why they won on tablets?  Despite criticism that their  laptops need a touch screen, they aren't having trouble selling iPads or MacBooks.  What the convergent product looks like is a guessing game, but a gambling man might think Apple's odds are pretty good playing the long game.  

 

Remember that the iPad and tablets in general were largely marketed to be content/media consumption devices.  Developers and creative consumers pushed for a more robust OS that could do more creative work.  Apple's profit margin on iPads is very high.  Light on RAM, light on storage, but the money people spend on apps and content is huge.   

[jarrell]

 

5 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

It's the aspirational factor Apple's lost the race on, at least with laptops, probably with tablets too

 

Not really sure Apple has dropped the ball marketing wise by not providing touchscreen capabilities on their laptops. If that was the case, I would think their laptop sales would be falling, while Chromebook and Surface sales were rising to replace them. That does not appear to be the case. If by aspirational you mean measured by something other than sales, then I don't know... but people vote with their pocketbooks based on products currently on the market, and there Apple is still doing OK.

 

Of course I can see in the future where tablets and laptops converge, even in Apple's product lines, but it doesn't appear the market is demanding it just yet IMHO. I'm sure Apple is tracking not only raw sales figures, but age and other factors, and if they see sales dropping in younger buyers, they would take that into account in their product planning strategies.

 

5 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

But there's lots of other cool stuff out there Apple's lost the race to the egg on. Those foldables, the Surface, AI. I think they figure if they don't get there first they shouldn't bother. But IMO that's legacy thinking from when they were inventing markets. They need to be more nimble now.

 

Actually I think Apple has a history of entering an already existing market with products that are better designed. Music players existed before the iPod, and I'm sure some of us remember Windows Phone, before the iPhone, the Osborne came before the Macintosh PowerBook, etc. (well maybe that last one isn't a fair comparison, but there was a pre existing laptop market)... Not sure Apple has lost the AI race either - I think those capabilities are integrated into various parts of the system, like Face ID, photo and video processing and editing, handwriting recognition, Live Text (recognizing text in photos and camera), and of course Siri (which could be better, but is improving). Having 16 neural processor cores on their new chips tells me they are taking machine learning seriously, and allowing developers access to API's allows for a lot of interesting possibilities.

[ElmerJFudd]

3 hours ago, jarrell said:

 

 

Not really sure Apple has dropped the ball marketing wise by not providing touchscreen capabilities on their laptops. If that was the case, I would think their laptop sales would be falling, while Chromebook and Surface sales were rising to replace them. That does not appear to be the case. If by aspirational you mean measured by something other than sales, then I don't know... but people vote with their pocketbooks based on products currently on the market, and there Apple is still doing OK.

 

Of course I can see in the future where tablets and laptops converge, even in Apple's product lines, but it doesn't appear the market is demanding it just yet IMHO. I'm sure Apple is tracking not only raw sales figures, but age and other factors, and if they see sales dropping in younger buyers, they would take that into account in their product planning strategies.

 

 

Actually I think Apple has a history of entering an already existing market with products that are better designed. Music players existed before the iPod, and I'm sure some of us remember Windows Phone, before the iPhone, the Osborne came before the Macintosh PowerBook, etc. (well maybe that last one isn't a fair comparison, but there was a pre existing laptop market)... Not sure Apple has lost the AI race either - I think those capabilities are integrated into various parts of the system, like Face ID, photo and video processing and editing, handwriting recognition, Live Text (recognizing text in photos and camera), and of course Siri (which could be better, but is improving). Having 16 neural processor cores on their new chips tells me they are taking machine learning seriously, and allowing developers access to API's allows for a lot of interesting possibilities.

Pretty much.   If/when Apple releases a touch screen laptop or convertible or convergent product (the iPad Pro with a keyboard is already very close).  It’s not going to be slapping a touch screen on a laptop/MacBook running their desktop OS and desktop apps.  Even if we think we want that.  Apple did attempt a half hearted change to their MacBooks when they "slapped on" the touch bar.  It was not a hit.