Jazz Fusion. Help me make some connections?

[KuruPrionz]

4 hours ago, Mark Zeger said:

There are more fusions than jazz-rock.

 

Ex

Jazz-R&B: George Benson of the late 70s-80s, Roy Ayers, CTI albums of the 70s

 

Jazz-hip hop: A Tribe Called Quest, Roy Hargrove’s RH Factor, Robert Glasper

 

Jazz-classical = Third Stream: Gil Evans (with or w/o Miles), John Lewis/Modern Jazz Quartet, Maria Schneider

 

Jazz-“world music” (hate the term): Oregon, Hugh Masakela, Abdullah Ibrahim (Dollar Brand), Shakti, Getz/Gilberto

 

 

At which point I'll probably ruffle feathers again and point out that Western Swing was a fusion of country/folk music with jazz. Many jazz artists played it and there were jazz-influenced guitarists including steel players soloing jazzy riffs over jazzy versions of classic country and folk tunes. Pre Fusion Fusion? I think it is a part of the puzzle, others may disagree. 

 

https://www.historyofwesternswing.com

 

In a 1997 review of “The Complete Recordings of Milton Brown & his Musical Brownies,” the late journalist Robert Palmer said, “Their music has proved too jazzy and swinging to win them a prominent place in the annals of country music, too “hillbilly” to be taken seriously by jazz scholars, too full of regional quirks to be accepted as mainstream pop.”

 

[El Lobo]

Grover Washington Jr's Mister Magic was released in 1974. I fronted a group (on sax) in the late 70's. We called the music we played jazz-funk. We played Mister Magic and Herbie tunes and the like. Now Grover Washington's music is thought of as smooth jazz but in the 70's it was jazz-funk or jazz fusion. Most people associate smooth jazz with Kenny G. His first solo album was in 1982 but he didn't become well known until 1986 with the cut "Songbird" on his Duotones album. Other references mention George Benson's Breezin' in 1976 and Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good in 1978 as smooth jazz now, but this wikipedia entry says the term "smooth jazz" wasn't used until the 1980's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_jazz

[moj]

Santana - Incident at Neshabur Released in 1970.  Santana doesn't get the credit for pioneering the "jazz-fusion" movement.  Given credit for pioneering "Latin Rock", but was more than that.

 

Colosseum II - Desperado  - This British band was started by drummer John Hiseman.  After disbanding his horn/blues-rock band ( influenced by Chicago).  He was highly inspired by The Mahavishnu Orchestra and RTF to start a new band.  Desperado performed by Gary Moore - guitar, Don Airey - KB, John Mole - bass. A highly underrated rock-fusion group. (rock musicians influenced by jazz harmonies and composition).

 

Blood Sweat and Tears - Inner Crisis. I believe this version of the band was THE "Jazz-Rock" group, at the time. ( The early version of group was blues/rock).

 

However, a prototypical "Jazz-Fusion" band is dominated by the electric guitar, imo.  Hence, The Mahavishnu Orchestra is the most influential and, arguably, the first "Jazz-Fusion" group.

 

[KuruPrionz]

5 minutes ago, moj said:

Santana - Incident at Neshabur Released in 1970.  Santana doesn't get the credit for pioneering the "jazz-fusion" movement.  Given credit for pioneering "Latin Rock", but was more than that.

 

Colosseum II - Desperado  - This British band was started by drummer John Hiseman.  After disbanding his horn/blues-rock band ( influenced by Chicago).  He was highly inspired by The Mahavishnu Orchestra and RTF to start a new band.  Desperado performed by Gary Moore - guitar, Don Airey - KB, John Mole - bass. A highly underrated rock-fusion group. (rock musicians influenced by jazz harmonies and composition).

 

Blood Sweat and Tears - Inner Crisis. I believe this version of the band was THE "Jazz-Rock" group. at the time. ( The early version of group was blues/rock).

 

However, a prototypical "Jazz-Fusion" band is dominated by the electric guitar, imo.  Hence, The Mahavishnu Orchestra is the most influential and, arguably, the first "Jazz-Fusion" group.

 

I don't have a time frame but I saw UK in the late 70's, the version with Eddie Jobson on electric violin and keys, John Wetton on bass and Terry Bozzio on drums. 

They were certainly a fusion band, spectacular live and not a guitar in sight. They opened for Jethro Tull who are their own sort of British prog rock, which borders on fusion sometimes but mostly veers more towards classical and less towards jazz. 

[CyberGene]

9 hours ago, Mark Zeger said:

There are more fusions than jazz-rock.

 

Ex

Jazz-R&B: George Benson of the late 70s-80s, Roy Ayers, CTI albums of the 70s

 

Jazz-hip hop: A Tribe Called Quest, Roy Hargrove’s RH Factor, Robert Glasper

 

Jazz-classical = Third Stream: Gil Evans (with or w/o Miles), John Lewis/Modern Jazz Quartet, Maria Schneider

 

Jazz-“world music” (hate the term): Oregon, Hugh Masakela, Abdullah Ibrahim (Dollar Brand), Shakti, Getz/Gilberto

 

 

Jazz + Heavy Metal = Progressive Metal / Djent: Planet X, Derek Sherinian, Animals as Leaders, Tesseract, Meshuggah

[Mark Zeger]

9 hours ago, KuruPrionz said:

At which point I'll probably ruffle feathers again and point out that Western Swing was a fusion of country/folk music with jazz.

 

I’d agree. If you listen to Django vs Western swing, there are connections through similar harmonic vocabulary and use of the two beat rhythm. Like most elements of jazz (a sense of swing, blues expression, improvisation), it comes from New Orleans.

 

Here’s Wynton to explain the two beat rhythm:

 

[jejefunkyman]

6 hours ago, El Lobo said:

Grover Washington Jr's Mister Magic was released in 1974. I fronted a group (on sax) in the late 70's. We called the music we played jazz-funk. We played Mister Magic and Herbie tunes and the like. Now Grover Washington's music is thought of as smooth jazz but in the 70's it was jazz-funk or jazz fusion. Most people associate smooth jazz with Kenny G. His first solo album was in 1982 but he didn't become well known until 1986 with the cut "Songbird" on his Duotones album. Other references mention George Benson's Breezin' in 1976 and Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good in 1978 as smooth jazz now, but this wikipedia entry says the term "smooth jazz" wasn't used until the 1980's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_jazz

 

Mister Magic is definitely Jazz/Funk for me, as all the Herbie stuff from this era, and has nothing to do with Smooth Jazz, a type of music I would rather associate with the 80's sound. And I was born in 75, so I only got into what is for me the Jazz/Funk stuff (mostly from the 70's) in my late teenage years, in the beginning of the 90's.

[Tusker]

I am loving all the contributions to this topic and especially the comments which link the "central" Jazz-Fusion genre to it's parents, siblings and offspring. Not really interested in pigeonholing as much as understanding the story and understanding connections between musical impulses and traditions.

 

Special thanks to everyone who linked to a video or mentioned an album or band, I could follow up on. This is great! Keep it coming!! 👍 👍💪💪

[jerrythek]

There's a lot of good input from folks on this subject. I am in complete agreement with Reezekeys (we're of the same vintage and musical leanings I think) as we grew of age during this transitional time. The movement began when rock rhythms and distorted electric guitar crept in the music. So the early Gary Burton, Jeremy Steig, Miles music was the first turning point. I think especially it was the rhythm bed approach that was the first cross-over. How the bass and drums played. The music moved away from complex chords and functional harmony.... although modal jazz and even free music could play for long times on a single chord, it is the rhythm that defined the genre's beginnings. The difference between the rock people stretching out and the jazz-rock people was the vocabulary or notes/scales and how they went away from the key center and came back.

 

Lesser known early albums include The Count's Rock Band by Steve Marcus (Larry Coryell on guitar, no wonder!). Early Barry Miles (White Heat?), and others. By 1973-75 lots of folks were making great jazz-rock music (isn't this where you would place Brian Auger's Oblivion Express?), but by 1978-79 a lot started to get watered down, because as some people had huge success the record labels pushed them for more commercial appeal... plus disco happened, so the rhythm bed changed and a lot of great players made questionable albums... this might have been part of the tipping point that eventually led to more commercial genres like smooth jazz. We can argue that the funk and r&b type stuff wasn't jazz-rock, or fusion, but I don't get so semantic about it. Herbie, George Duke and others skirted between the genres fluidly.

 

I'm just dumping out thoughts here... I'll look for some links when I have more time.

 

Jerry

 

 

[jerrythek]

Regarding the transition to smooth jazz, many credit (or blame) Jeff Lorber for some of that, be it his more cross-over albums in the mid-80's or his production work. But his early albums were hugely influential for having catchy melodies but were still full of fiery playing. Look to most of the early albums when it was still called The Jeff Lorber Fusion... plus he gets knocked for introducing Kenny G to the world... He has to live with that. LOL I know Jeff and hung around with the band back then and Kenny was so into learning and growing, picking up stuff from Jeff... then it all went south... LOL But Jeff is making great music again for the last 20 years or so. He just did what made him money. George Duke used to tell me that he made one record for the industry, then one for himself. A guy's gotta eat, right?

 

But it was the record labels and radio formats that caused/created smooth jazz. The albums El Lobo points out were big hits, which caused those forces to ask for more stuff like that, and shorter tunes etc. And then it migrated into Smooth Jazz, The Wave. So many great artists that I know would say if they didn't adhere to the format their music wouldn't get played. Sad, but people have to make a living, I don't fault anyone for that. I remember listening to WRVR here in NY and they would say they were smooth jazz, and then played a tune by the Stylistics, or Simply Red. Smooth R&B morphed into Smooth Jazz. Whatever.

 

[Tusker]

13 hours ago, 16251 said:

Forever moment - seeing Billy Cobham - George Duke band at Symphony Hall Boston MA, 10/15/1976. John Scofield was a teenager.

 

I keep playing the YouTubes on that lineup. Just amazing musicianship.... 

[Tusker]

37 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

Regarding the transition to smooth jazz, many credit (or blame) Jeff Lorber for some of that, be it his more cross-over albums in the mid-80's or his production work. But his early albums were hugely influential for having catchy melodies but were still full of fiery playing.

 

A little bit pre-covid I caught his band (with Jimmy Haslip on bass). I was sorry the Moogs were not to be seen but his Rhodes work more than made up for that. To me, Jeff does the finest Rhodes jazz comping in the history of that instrument.

[jerrythek]

I also saw this band in early '76, at a small club in Willimantic CT called The Shaboo Inn. They were so good!

 

Edit: just found this online bootleg performance: https://www.jazzfusion.tv/music/billy-cobham-george-duke-band-1976-03-19-hofstra-univ-hempstead-ny/

 

 

14 hours ago, 16251 said:

Forever moment - seeing Billy Cobham - George Duke band at Symphony Hall Boston MA, 10/15/1976. John Scofield was a teenager.

 

 

 

[timwat]

10 minutes ago, Tusker said:

A little bit pre-covid I caught his band (with Jimmy Haslip on bass). I was sorry the Moogs were not to be seen but his Rhodes work more than made up for that. To me, Jeff does the finest Rhodes jazz comping in the history of that instrument.

 

Jeff is certainly talented, and his technique is very clean and impeccable. But I might suggest Chick's comping throughout the Light as a Feather album is really, for me, the gold standard of Rhodes comping.

[timwat]

for whatever little it's worth, I agree the evolution of jazz fusing with other genres has several different threads.

 

Jerry's comment about harmonic vocabulary is so insightful to me - the "smooth" music that came from guys like Bob James (who has a long bop history) is so different than Kenny Gorelick's (who, as I understand it, never claimed to be a jazz guy, and has always wanted to learn and grow his own vocabulary). 

 

Too much "smooth jazz" was basically instrumental "smooth" R&B, and relied exclusively on the pentatonic blues vocabulary with no real adventure or risk. And when they started using drum loops to noodle over, well, it became worse than elevator music to my tastes. But often players in the most inoffensive, least challenging outfits would stretch out in a live setting (Tom Schumann of Spyro Gyra comes to mind, who to me is a really fine, mature player). Making records to earn a living, and then playing what you really wanted on the stage - there are worse ways to make a living in music, aren't there?

 

And of course when many rock guys tried to "fuse", they took the relative freedom of expanded improvisational settings...but didn't have an extended harmonic vocabulary to make it sound anything like jazz to me (Traffic comes to mind as an example - perhaps the proto-jam band?).

 

And in addition to harmony, the rhythmic vocabulary is another aspect that's sometimes overlooked. The jazz-rock thing took all the swing out, and sat on the front end of the one. And to my ears, as impressive as the technicality got, it lost the human soul to me.

 

Herbie's marriage with funk on the other hand, retained the swing that seems to be present in all the best funk (listen to how hard Parliament swings, for example), and of course, jazz-hip hop often sits waaaaaaay on the back end of the one (thank you J Dilla). Which reminds me how damn awful so many cover bands sound playing Superstition when the drummer can't swing.

 

Anyway, just some random thoughts that probably doesn't add anything valuable to the conversation. I just have been thinking about this as I consider the fellas I play with these days. Some don't have the native vocabulary, others don't read music (which only means it's reeeeeally hard to communicate complex musical ideas), some don't listen to enough other genres, some don't swing, some have all of the above but are complete dicks to work with. And I have my own big bucket of weaknesses as well.

 

Sorry a lot of this is off topic, or has already been said. Carry on.

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, jerrythek said:

Regarding the transition to smooth jazz, many credit (or blame) Jeff Lorber for some of that, be it his more cross-over albums in the mid-80's or his production work. But his early albums were hugely influential for having catchy melodies but were still full of fiery playing.

Agreed.  Jeff Lorber is a very tasteful keys player who has delivered some seriously funky sh8t especially when it comes to Rhodes.  

 

Unfortunately, Smooth Jazz just contained way too much high fructose corn syrup. 🤣😎

[Docbop]

Smooth........................Jazz     I don't even like putting the two words close to each other, because if it's smooth  it ain't Jazz.    Smooth........................Jazz is what musicians play when they need rent money. 

[El Lobo]

ooh ooh ooh jerrythek mentioned Brian Augur and Oblivion Express. I played the Closer To It album from about 1974 a ton. Some of my favorite keyboard playing from the 70's. Check out "Compared To What" for organ and "Happiness Is Just Around The Bend" for Rhodes .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW40REAxLEc  

 

 

[16251]

Smooth jazz didn't do itself any favors by incorporating the DX7 ep sound.

[jerrythek]

You all are touching on one of my main gripes with the whole smooth jazz genre: no tension. Be it harmonically or rhythmically, it all is just too passive/safe/mellow. Tension and release is part of the thrill ride of great playing.

 

[Irena]

Going back to the coining of the term, Tony Williams' "Emergency" is sometimes overlooked as an early fusion landmark that preceded Bitches Brew. Not nearly as well known now of course, but it was pretty influential at the time.

 

A lot of great insights have been written already in this thread to trace the lineage over the next 30 years or so. The OP also poses an interesting question of whether fusion ends with Tribal Tech. At first glance it would seem no. Even just focusing on Tribal Tech itself, the bass player for Dirty Loops (Henrik Linder) has been enormously influenced by Gary Willis. I'm not suggesting Dirty Loops as a successor to Tribal Tech (that would be a hard argument to make for all kinds of reasons ) or even an example of modern fusion, but if you look to their instrumental pieces like "Work Shit Out" from last year, it's not too far away from Tribal Tech in sensibility.

 

Genre labels tend to get worn out, and I don't think many younger artists would self-identify as fusion any more than they would as acid rock.  Still, there's am obvious linkage between original fusion supergroups like RTF and today's Snarky Puppy / Ghost-Note / Domi-JD Beck / etc. gang, even if Nu Jazz is the preferred term nowadays. I'd add to that list some less in-your-face players like Kaidi Tatham, whose tasty EP and clav work is hard not to appreciate for anyone weened on Herbie.

 

Beyond the current crop of Nu Jazz heavies, whether other artists over the past 10-20 years deserve mention depends on what's being fused. Jazz + rock seemed to be the original formula that inspired the term, but if we really mean  jazz chops + whatever the young people are digging these days, there's a lot out there now.  Robert Glasper's vibe is a long way from Mike Stern blowing hard bop lines over jazz changes with a crunch guitar sound, but as Glasper has shifted from a jazz trio format into his current sound with trap grooves and neo soul elements (e.g., his Black Radio albums), he's built on straightahead jazz skills to arrive somewhere new and interesting. 

 

Once one opens the door to his sound, there's a lot of genre-obliterating material out there to consider. I'm not sure many people considered Roy Hargrove's "RH Factor" albums from the early 2000's to be fusion, but I don't what else to call that fantastic soup of jazz, funk, hip-hop and even a Q-Tip appearance. Herbie's albums from around the same time (e.g., Future 2 Future) are often overlooked for their role in quietly moving the ball forward on that front--e.g., virtuoso turntableism that goes way beyond the campy Rockit fare, all riding on top of Jack DeJohnette.

 

Speaking of Q-Tip, what about the whole lo-fi sampled jazz situation?  That might seem like a big stretch, but artists like a Tribe Called Quest and Dilla have begotten a fertile lo-fi *non-sampled* scene (e.g., skilled Berklee types accompanying an MC) which can be heard performed live without a net in the wee hours at East Village venues these days.

 

That all makes me wonder if the word fusion feels at this point historical and  over to many simply because so much has been done to blow up the orderly demarcated genre silos that existed when the term first emerged. If that's the case, I see it as a mark of progress that the term is fading away. But like others I hold the original fusion stalwarts mentioned on this thread (and many others not mentioned) in the highest regard and reach for the term with admiration when referring to those musicians. Over the course of a few decades their artistic vision arguably rendered the term itself obsolete. In other words, mission accomplished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jerrythek]

Of course, Tony Williams Emergency (1969) is a very important early album... glad you mentioned it! As is their second album, Turn It Over (1970) with Jack Bruce added.

 

Jerry

 

 

 

[Tusker]

On 4/14/2022 at 2:36 PM, Irena said:

A lot of great insights have been written already in this thread to trace the lineage over the next 30 years or so. The OP also poses an interesting question of whether fusion ends with Tribal Tech. At first glance it would seem no. Even just focusing on Tribal Tech itself, the bass player for Dirty Loops (Henrik Linder) has been enormously influenced by Gary Willis. I'm not suggesting Dirty Loops as a successor to Tribal Tech (that would be a hard argument to make for all kinds of reasons ) or even an example of modern fusion, but if you look to their instrumental pieces like "Work Shit Out" from last year, it's not too far away from Tribal Tech in sensibility.

 

Genre labels tend to get worn out, and I don't think many younger artists would self-identify as fusion any more than they would as acid rock. 

 

Henrik Linder delivers the goods every time!! Your post adds so much context to this conversation, and I fear my response is going to be inadequate ...

 

Tribal Tech was a lazy example on my part. A kind of straw man to knock down. Your larger point that genre labels wear out is important for us to consider as we trace the lineage of music. So far, it seems nobody has mentioned influential bands like the Pat Metheny Group, the Dixie Dregs or the Flecktones, which makes me feel this conversation should not be seen as encyclopedic. Some would say that Medeski and pals fit more easily in the jam band tradition, but my response would be why not see them as both? Some of your examples are hugely educational for me particularly with the newer acts that include turntables and sampling. If you would point to any recent tracks, I would gladly take them as homework. Listening to a great track by Robert Glasper with Esperanza and Q-Tip as I type this, and so very glad you helped open this window a bit wider for me. 🙏

 

On 4/14/2022 at 2:36 PM, Irena said:

if we really mean  jazz chops + whatever the young people are digging these days, there's a lot out there now.

That's a very good definition. This is what I'd like to learn more about. I recently saw a video of Grace Kelly playing with Dirty Loops and it perked me up. I know her jazz chops and it feels right that music not be balkanized but that it comes together. Ditto for the Funk Apostles and Snarky Puppy. They are bringing the kids out and enriching them with a ton of vocabulary. 👍 👏

[Reezekeys]

On 4/14/2022 at 11:55 AM, jerrythek said:

Edit: just found this online bootleg performance

 

Wow that's some website! I found ME on there! 🙂  Thanks Jerry. And thanks for mentioning White Heat, you beat me to it. I wore that record out when it first appeared (that's how old I am). I might still have the vinyl somewhere.

[GovernorSilver]

3 hours ago, Tusker said:

 So far, it seems nobody has mentioned influential bands like the Pat Metheny Group, the Dixie Dregs or the Flecktones,

 

Perhaps this is because people know that you already know who these artists are, and their place in jazz fusion history?

 

I think we've read your OP as a request for artists you don't already know, but I could be wrong.

[Tusker]

2 hours ago, GovernorSilver said:

 

Perhaps this is because people know that you already know who these artists are, and their place in jazz fusion history?

 

I think we've read your OP as a request for artists you don't already know, but I could be wrong.

 

Perhaps you are right Paulo, but I haven't mentioned Dixie Dregs in over five years.

 

Probably true for Metheny and the Flecktones though!! Crap!! I am a broken record.  🤦‍♂️😅

[Irena]

I think your choice of Tribal Tech as an illustrative example is a great way to start the conversation--I took it as such.  I would guess the Dregs, Metheny/Mays, the ECM and CTI catalogs, Brecker Brothers, etc., are pretty familiar to most in this group, but it's been great to read how people think about the lineage.

 

As for newer music, I see the most well-known practitioners like Snarky Puppy and the hyped up-and-comers like Domi mentioned on this forum from time to time, but I'm continually astonished by the quality of other jazz-ish material coming out through channels like Bandcamp.  A lot seems to be happening in the UK (e.g., Ezra Collective). In some cases it's debatable whether these players are doing much that's new vis a vis what was first explored 40-50 years ago, but in any case I am enjoying some of it. A few are noted below that may not be on your radar, but please don't think I am suggesting these are comparable in significance to the landmark recordings referenced elsewhere on this thread. I'll be surprised if people are talking about many of these in 40 years, but offered in the spirit of what I think you may be asking:

 

Yussef Kamaal- Black Focus

JK Group - The Young Ones

Zeitgeist Freedom Energy Exchange (eponymous album)

Alfa Mist - Runouts

Nubiyan Twist - Jungle Run

Triorität - Alg0

Soul Supreme - Award Tour (We Gettin' Down)

Vels Trio - Celestial Greens (e.g., "McEnroe")

 

A few categories I've neglected that many might consider fair game: i) funk-driven grooves with horns (my list arbitrarily assuming that musical giants like Tower of Power and AWB are not considered jazz fusion for your purposes; if they are, I might add a few recent entrants) ii) deep house club mixes that include prominent jazz elements--i.e., my list assumes four-on-the-floor results in automatic disqualification, 🙂; iii) broken beat--artists like Mark De Clive-Lowe.

 

[GovernorSilver]

38 minutes ago, Tusker said:

 

Perhaps you are right Paulo, but I haven't mentioned Dixie Dregs in over five years.

 

Probably true for Metheny and the Flecktones though!! Crap!! I am a broken record.  🤦‍♂️😅

 

I guess there aren't that many Mahavishnu fans here, as the Dixie Dregs violinist was on that band too.  😎

 

One time somebody submitted Metheny's name as a fusion artist and an argument started over that.  This is fusion/not fusion arguments are not my thing.

[Theo Verelst]

How did Rock develop out of Rock & Roll ? Jazz with Funk IMO is a great combination for who can hack it (at least) like Markus Miller is a good example (of course with Dr Miles) in turn being influenced by Larry Graham. Bob Berg is another, the Brecker brothers, The Crusaders I suppose is mainly Jazz Funk Fusion, G Duke clearly another good example.

 

Apart form the flow of history in the Blues, Rock, Jazz and Funk you need a decent sound, because that's important to make a musical stand which allows the audience to enjoy the music. There are Jazz albums that sound pretty ok on YT or CD, but a lot of stuff that's out there wouldn't get much attention because there's no interesting and pure enough sound and tones. Maybe some of the well known music also is more enjoyed "live" (in a proper way) than from all kinds of albums and other musical information carriers.

 

T

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Theo Verelst said:

Markus Miller is a good example (of course with Dr Miles)

 

Coincidentally, this is the band I saw last night!