Viscount Legend vs Crumar Mojo ('suitacse')

[Niall01]

Please if anyone uses the Crumar and/or Viscount Legend ,any info appreciated: I'm an intermediate player,not professional level. If anyone has experience of either of these Organs can you please help me choose which one might suit me best? I own a Hammond XK3c, trying to get an easier rig to play live & travel to rehearsals with.

2nd question is the Hammond XK3c I learnt to play on, has only 1 set of drawbars for each manual. The Crumar is the same, while the Viscount Legend has 2 sets of drawbars for EACH manual. Since I've never had 2 sets of drawbars for each manual am I:
1)missing out not have both sets of drawbars
2) does it limit you a huge amount to have only 1 set of drawbars in your opinion?

I'd be so grateful for any help available.

thank you,

Niall.
https://www.thomann.de/ie/crumar_mojo_suitcase.htm

 

https://www.thomann.de/ie/viscount_legend_live_black_signature.htm

[kaptainkeys]

I'm not mainly a Hammond player, so take my input with a few grains of salt.  From my understanding, the second set of drawbars allows you to dial up a second sound and quickly and easily switch sounds on each manual.  Unless you need to switch between 4 different drawbar settings quickly, the second set of drawbars for each manual are not as necessary (still might be nice to have).  I would go with whichever clone sounds better to you, I wouldn't worry too much about the extra drawbars.

[Dockeys]

I’ll chime in but there are way more experienced players of those boards on the forum. I had the xk3c with lower manual a few years ago. I really liked it but found it too heavy to gig with so I did a trade for the SK2. I only had one set of drawbars on that and didn’t find it too limiting. 
 

I later picked up an original Mojo dual manual (previous model to the one you’ve listed). The extra set of drawbars was useful depending on the tune I was playing. It did lack the extra voices of the SK but the sound was very nice. I didn’t gel with the OS tho and it rebooted itself on several occasions. I never felt happy gigging with it. It only happened rarely but enough to give me doubts. The newer one maybe more stable and I know there are a lot of happy campers here who use the single manual mojo. 
 

Finally I picked up the legend live last year. Again it’s nice to have extra drawbars especially as you can only save 2 presets per manual (I think) so it’s nice to have  4 presets in lieu of the preset keys that the bigger Legend has. I find the legend live has a more authentic layout like a real Hammond and it’s working out really well for me. 
 

I tend to stick with almost the same setting on the lower manual so a lot of the time the second set for the lower manual is defunct. So I’ve worked with one set and managed, worked with two sets and managed and again with four sets and again it’s fine. I don’t think it’s a game changer for me at any rate how many I have. 
 

I note you have the Joey D signature model for the legend listed. The original version is about €200-250 cheaper unless you’ve got your heart set on the black version?

[kwyn]

When it comes to clones, especially by smaller companies, reliability is a huge issue!! I highly recommend doing the research. I'm not comfortable making that call for you, but seriously, make sure the company makes a reliable product, not only one that doesn't break down during a gig, but also one that you won't have to be without for extended periods of time

[dazzjazz]

I've been playing KeyB/Viscount for about 10 years now. Their instruments are rock solid and inspiring to play. The layout with two sets of drawbars is a more authentic experience, akin to a real console than a clone with only one set.

 

Darren

[Outkaster]

20 hours ago, kwyn said:

When it comes to clones, especially by smaller companies, reliability is a huge issue!! I highly recommend doing the research. I'm not comfortable making that call for you, but seriously, make sure the company makes a reliable product, not only one that doesn't break down during a gig, but also one that you won't have to be without for extended periods of time

True I had two different Mojos shit the bed during gigs.

[funkyhammond]

On 4/12/2022 at 2:33 PM, Niall01 said:

2nd question is the Hammond XK3c I learnt to play on, has only 1 set of drawbars for each manual. The Crumar is the same, while the Viscount Legend has 2 sets of drawbars for EACH manual. Since I've never had 2 sets of drawbars for each manual am I:
1)missing out not have both sets of drawbars
2) does it limit you a huge amount to have only 1 set of drawbars in your opinion?
 

 

I see it as a nice-to-have but not essential. On a vintage Hammond, the extra set of drawbars is very useful because it's the only way to instantly switch a manual to a different sound/registration mid-song (ignoring the hardwired presets). But on a digital organ, you can accomplish the same thing with programmable drawbar presets. The only downside is that your physical drawbars are now out of sync with the registration actually being heard. This is only a big deal if you want to also be able to smoothly manipulate the drawbars after a quick registration switch. Think about what kinds of music you play or want to play and how important you think that will really be. I own a real A-100 and I'm fine with programmable drawbar presets on digital organs as long as they switch instantly and seamlessly without disrupting whatever the sound engine is currently playing. 

[Delaware Dave]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:44 PM, funkyhammond said:

But on a digital organ, you can accomplish the same thing with programmable drawbar presets. 

Not exactly the same thing because your programmed preset has to be programmed in advance and that programmed preset is the same every time you switch to it,  where as on a hammond you can set the 'other' set of drawbars to whatever you want right before the change so its more on the fly (realtime).  subtle difference in discussion but more significant during actual playing.  Of course if the gig isnt hammond centric it may not matter.  When I played some jazz stuff back in the day the 2nd set came in handy, not so much anymore.  one of the advantages of my Voce V5+ that i always liked is that it offered all 5 sets of drawbars, with 4 of them being controlled virtually via midi cc calls (if your controllers had 9 sliders, which mine do) and the roll of the mod wheel to switch between the two sets of drawbars. My two cents.

[funkyhammond]

19 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

Not exactly the same thing because your programmed preset has to be programmed in advance and that programmed preset is the same every time you switch to it,  where as on a hammond you can set the 'other' set of drawbars to whatever you want right before the change so its more on the fly (realtime).  subtle difference in discussion but more significant during actual playing.  Of course if the gig isnt hammond centric it may not matter.  When I played some jazz stuff back in the day the 2nd set came in handy, not so much anymore.  one of the advantages of my Voce V5+ that i always liked is that it offered all 5 sets of drawbars, with 4 of them being controlled virtually via midi cc calls (if your controllers had 9 sliders, which mine do) and the roll of the mod wheel to switch between the two sets of drawbars. My two cents.

 

I agree it's not exactly the same thing. How much does the difference matter is the question. I think it also depends on the keyboard and how it works. Given the choice here of the Mojo, I guess you are right. I had to look it up. To store a physical drawbar setting into one of the drawbar presets, you have to hold a button down for two seconds. Useless for on-the-fly live playing. On my Nord C1, there are 3 dedicated drawbar preset buttons per manual with little LEDs showing which one of the three is active. They are saved with the patch but when a patch is called up, they also become live adjustable presets. Whichever preset button is lit automatically remembers any drawbar adjustments made so you can quickly switch between 3 adjustable registrations. You just can't adjust one in the background before a change. A huge bonus I discovered later was that pressing a preset button on the C1 also sends out all 9 drawbar values of that preset over MIDI, so that live feature even works when using the C1 as a controller. Which is great now that I just use it as a controller at home for organ VSTs.

Anyway, given the limitation of the Mojo and its presets, the Legend Live is definitely better in that department with its four sets of drawbars. Still, I personally would be making my decision more based on other factors. But everything else being more-or-less equal, the Legend Live has the edge for its controls. Some people have complained about the action of the Legend/Legend Live being on the stiff side but others have said that it more resembles what a new Hammond would have felt like instead of a well worn one that people are used to now. 

[Bydon]

I would agree with the comments regarding clone wheels’ reliability and the availability of parts: I have recently found out that Crumar will not sell or supply parts for any of their instruments out of the warranty period. I have a Mojo 61 with a fault and effectively they told me it can’t be fixed as they will not supply parts and the nearest service centre is in Italy and I’m in the UK.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/146295639427037/permalink/1031315194258406/

[ImproKeys]

Welcome, Niall!

 

I had both Mojo Classic and Legend Live to A/B. 

I liked the layout of the Legend, but it is wider than the Mojo, and size is an issue for me.

I preferred the Mojo keybed action. 

I liked the input / ouput possibilities on the Legend.

You can get them to sound alike, but I am not that experienced to tell if one is closer to "an" original Hammond; the Hammonds I played always sounded different.

For me, the overdrive section on the Legend sucked.

Eventually I felt way more "connected" to the Mojo, so I kept it an returned the Legend. If I were to play a real Leslie all the time, maybe I would have gone Legend.

 

Yes, I read about quality complaints, especially here in this forum and on facebook. I also heard from people who never had issues.

 

And yes, I also had some trouble in the beginning; some kind of static discharge maybe. Crumar Support answered very fast and politely and suggested trying different pedals. Eventually I sent it back to the dealer to let them check out if something was wrong. It took 2 weeks (fair amount of time in covid lockdown, I think). They could not find anything but renewed the cables. Up to now it didn't let me down (knock on wood).

 

I am emphazising on the fast support because our new member Bydon (welcome!) seemed to have major problems with the crumar support, as he made it very prominent upon facebook. Maybe check out where Crumar has his nearest authorized dealer, if you are worried about sending in your instrument for repairs or check ups.

 

By the way, I am telling you no news when I say, you will always find more criticism / reports of problems of a product on the internet than reports of happy owners - might be, that the happy owners are playing their instrument in the meantime ;-).

 

Cheers!

 

[Chris Towns]

Hi,

As a legend Live owner here in the U.K. Viscount have indicated a new 9 contact Legend Soul model is being launched at NAMM 2020 3rd-6th June this year. They also stated that Viscount will update/upgrade the existing Legend by KeyB line with key improvements in the rotary sim, chorus/vibrato, and several other modeling aspects.

Just thought it might be of interest when making a final decision.

Chris

[drawback]

14 minutes ago, chelsea4023 said:

Hi,

As a legend Live owner here in the U.K. Viscount have indicated a new 9 contact Legend Soul model is being launched at NAMM 2020 3rd-6th June this year. They also stated that Viscount will update/upgrade the existing Legend by KeyB line with key improvements in the rotary sim, chorus/vibrato, and several other modeling aspects.

Just thought it might be of interest when making a final decision.

Chris

👍  https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/182345-viscount-legend-soul/#comment-2898761

 

[Morrissey]

1 hour ago, ImproKeys said:

By the way, I am telling you no news when I say, you will always find more criticism / reports of problems of a product on the internet than reports of happy owners - might be, that the happy owners are playing their instrument in the meantime ;-).

💯

[kwyn]

2 hours ago, Morrissey said:

💯

And much more criticism of some products than others... Just sayin

[HammondDave]

6 hours ago, Bydon said:

I would agree with the comments regarding clone wheels’ reliability and the availability of parts: I have recently found out that Crumar will not sell or supply parts for any of their instruments out of the warranty period. I have a Mojo 61 with a fault and effectively they told me it can’t be fixed as they will not supply parts and the nearest service centre is in Italy and I’m in the UK.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/146295639427037/permalink/1031315194258406/

Not true. If you take your mojo to an approved service center they will supply the parts. 

[kenheeter]

Most manufacturers ( Roland, etc. ) have adopted the policy to not sell parts to end users.  There have been too many instances of botched repairs by end users resulting in small problems turning into big ones.  I'm a servicing depot for most major brands and I support this strategy.  Nothing I hate more than a customer showing up at my shop with a 'basket case' repair.  I'm sure Bydon can find a service shop in UK to repair his Mojo. The problem is that he wants to do it himself.  The Crumar folks are very reasonable and helpful but you can't expect much cooperation if you slag them on facebook.  Just sayin......

[LX 88]

There is Crumar Mojo service available on the West Coast BTW through McIntosh Audio in Salem Oregon.

 I have done a minor amounts of work with Michael Mc Intosh as sort of a go between between him and Crumar players. 

 

He is also authorized service for Viscount, HX3 and Hammond Suzuki. His rates are great and we love to help you players and get to know you.

 

PM me Hammond  Dave....I will put you in touch. Haven't asked Michael if I can post contact info yet.

 

I have Mojo module and Viscount Legend Live by the way. I m partial to Viscount sound by a smidgeon but I will say that Crumar is making great strides in their build quality. It's nit picky but to me Viscount did the right thing with percussion volume in the upper octave.... but if you use fast decay its not an issue. Also Viscount has an ultra cool BC sample that just knocks me out. Mojo has better overdrive  and the CV is a matter of preference... both are great.

[NOVEL SOLO]

One set of “DRAW-BARS” per manual is all that any tone wheel keyboard musician really needs.

 

The prewired Hammond B-3 style presets were rarely used by legacy Hammond organ performers.  These Hammond organ presets were preferred by students and amateurs for quick, accurate easy registration changes.

 

1950’s-1970’s Hammond performing organists preferred to make drawbar adjustments in real time creating instantaneous, unique momentary sound bites for every time the drawbars were “grabbed” & “shoved” during registration changes.

 

Perhaps there’s one instance where a Hammond preset was special, and only available on the Hammond X-66.  “NOVEL SOLO” was the name of the X-66 upper keyboard 🎹 preset.

 

The Hammond X-66 “NOVEL SOLO” preset sound was awesome, unique to the X-66, and almost impossible to recreate quickly with manual drawbar adjustments during a performance.

[b3plyr]

16 hours ago, NOVEL SOLO said:

One set of “DRAW-BARS” per manual is all that any tone wheel keyboard musician really needs.

 

The prewired Hammond B-3 style presets were rarely used by legacy Hammond organ performers.  These Hammond organ presets were preferred by students and amateurs for quick, accurate easy registration changes.

 

1950’s-1970’s Hammond performing organists preferred to make drawbar adjustments in real time creating instantaneous, unique momentary sound bites for every time the drawbars were “grabbed” & “shoved” during registration changes.

 

Perhaps there’s one instance where a Hammond preset was special, and only available on the Hammond X-66.  “NOVEL SOLO” was the name of the X-66 upper keyboard 🎹 preset.

 

The Hammond X-66 “NOVEL SOLO” preset sound was awesome, unique to the X-66, and almost impossible to recreate quickly with manual drawbar adjustments during a performance.

Totally disagree. I use two sets of drawbars per manual all the time. And this is everything from rock to jazz. I also use the presets in a band or duo environment. My rig is a Viscount Legend Soul. Love the 9 contact effect.

[JohnDoe]

3 minutes ago, b3plyr said:

Totally disagree. I use two sets of drawbars per manual all the time. And this is everything from rock to jazz. I also use the presets in a band or duo environment. My rig is a Viscount Legend Soul. Love the 9 contact effect.

Same here!

[NOVEL SOLO]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:57 PM, NOVEL SOLO said:

One set of “DRAW-BARS” per manual is all that any tone wheel keyboard musician really needs.

 

The prewired Hammond B-3 style presets were rarely used by legacy Hammond organ performers.  These Hammond organ presets were preferred by students and amateurs for quick, accurate easy registration changes.

 

1950’s-1970’s Hammond performing organists preferred to make drawbar adjustments in real time creating instantaneous, unique momentary sound bites for every time the drawbars were “grabbed” & “shoved” during registration changes.

 

Perhaps there’s one instance where a Hammond preset was special, and only available on the Hammond X-66.  “NOVEL SOLO” was the name of the X-66 upper keyboard 🎹 preset.

 

The Hammond X-66 “NOVEL SOLO” preset sound was awesome, unique to the X-66, and almost impossible to recreate quickly with manual drawbar adjustments during a performance.

 

[NOVEL SOLO]

Contemporary digital microprocessor technology organs, especially dual keyboard models, with draw bars / tone wheel designs are driven with coded software features like effects & modeling that can cause latency issues when manipulating drawbars during live performances.

 

“Presets” keys might be timed by factory coding for consistent switches and less latency than manipulating changes by pulling & pushing drawbars.

 

Users can modify presets for personalized content and the keyboard manufacturers software timing coding keeps the preset change consistent while executing the performers commands.

 

NORD ELECTRO 6D 61/73 single keyboard has improved microprocessors & storage capacity to allow for faster processing of drawbars changes without latency issues.  Dual keyboard designs like Viscount & Crumar have to scan & process more data changes with performance compromise for price point sales competition.

 

When microprocessor technology improves keyboard manufacturers have to invest in software upgrades, or a complete rewrite to take advantage of computing power which unfortunately is a labor intensive and expensive investment for low production niche musical keyboards..

 

 

 

 

[b3plyr]

1 hour ago, NOVEL SOLO said:

Contemporary digital microprocessor technology organs, especially dual keyboard models, with draw bars / tone wheel designs are driven with coded software features like effects & modeling that can cause latency issues when manipulating drawbars during live performances.

 

“Presets” keys might be timed by factory coding for consistent switches and less latency than manipulating changes by pulling & pushing drawbars.

 

Users can modify presets for personalized content and the keyboard manufacturers software timing coding keeps the preset change consistent while executing the performers commands.

 

NORD ELECTRO 6D 61/73 single keyboard has improved microprocessors & storage capacity to allow for faster processing of drawbars changes without latency issues.  Dual keyboard designs like Viscount & Crumar have to scan & process more data changes with performance compromise for price point sales competition.

 

When microprocessor technology improves keyboard manufacturers have to invest in software upgrades, or a complete rewrite to take advantage of computing power which unfortunately is a labor intensive and expensive investment for low production niche musical keyboards..

 

 

 

 

Have you played a Viscount Legend Solo? Or a Hammond XK-5? I have no latency issues with the drawbars. Or presets.

 

[mate stubb]

As one of those 70s organists, I used manual drawbar changes, two sets of drawbars to set up instant registation changes, AND I used the preset keys which I rewired to store my own presets. As did many of my contemporaries. YMMV.

[bill bosco]

3 hours ago, NOVEL SOLO said:

Contemporary digital microprocessor technology organs, especially dual keyboard models, with draw bars / tone wheel designs are driven with coded software features like effects & modeling that can cause latency issues when manipulating drawbars during live performances.

 

“Presets” keys might be timed by factory coding for consistent switches and less latency than manipulating changes by pulling & pushing drawbars.

 

Users can modify presets for personalized content and the keyboard manufacturers software timing coding keeps the preset change consistent while executing the performers commands.

 

NORD ELECTRO 6D 61/73 single keyboard has improved microprocessors & storage capacity to allow for faster processing of drawbars changes without latency issues.  Dual keyboard designs like Viscount & Crumar have to scan & process more data changes with performance compromise for price point sales competition.

 

When microprocessor technology improves keyboard manufacturers have to invest in software upgrades, or a complete rewrite to take advantage of computing power which unfortunately is a labor intensive and expensive investment for low production niche musical keyboards..

 

 

 

 

i never had any issues with drawbar latency on any clone i've owned . i did have issues with the early Crumar Mojo crashing on me on stage . couldn't use it

as a result . apparently the early ones had some problems , i would avoid a used one as Crumar support won't be able to help you out

[NOVEL SOLO]

1 hour ago, b3plyr said:

Have you played a Viscount Legend Solo? Or a Hammond XK-5? I have no latency issues with the drawbars. Or presets.

 

Yes I have performed on both the VISCOUNT & HAMMOND XK-5, testing the effects of digital latency.

 

The Hammond XK-5 digital scanning keyboard technology is accurate enough unless you are holding down 3-4 notes simultaneously while pulling & pushing drawbars - a slight delay or latency is noticeable to some keyboard musicians.

 

Creative software coding can optimize some of the lag or latency on digital keyboards while still retaining fun and complex features depending on the manufacturer’s willingness to invest in the redesign when microprocessors evolve to the next level of performance.

 

BTW, these comments offer no criticism of the use of “presets” by any  tone wheel drawbar musician. If you use “presets”, that’s awesome!

 

Even Hammond has had to upgrade their microprocessors and software coding during the past 20 years to add new features in order to offer Hammond portable drawbar tone wheel keyboards like XK, SK & HK  at competitive prices levels to dealers and end users.

 

In summary, drawbar tone wheel digital organ presets are like a pool cue bridge on a 7’ pool table.  If you need a pool cue bridge on a 7’ pool table for your performance, use it !

[NOVEL SOLO]

A variety of MIDI connected YAMAHA REFACE YC & NORD ELECTRO 6D drawbar organ keyboards controlled by a special “MIDI “Y” connector to ROLAND JUNO DS 61 or JUNO DS 88 MIDI OUT main keyboard controller provides real time YAMAHA YC & NORD ELECTRO 6D organ analog sound modifications to the YAMAHA / NORD digital signal processing.

 

The YAMAHA REFACE YC & CP mini keyboards are capable of producing up to 88 notes of the musical scale when MIDI connections to full sized MIDI keyboards are available.  
 

There is zero latency with YAMAHA REFACE YC / CP keyboards linked NORD ELECTRO 6D & ROLAND JUNO DS 61/73/88.

 

Plenty of rotary speaker emulation options, speaker “grit”  / distortion possibilities with this proven ROLAND, YAMAHA, NORD organ MIDI trio.  

Dual channel  /. Stereo outputs to a mixer for each keyboard are not necessary, the single channel output provides awesome audio quality.

 

YAMAHA, NORD & ROLAND keyboards connect to VISCOUNT & CRUMAR digital keyboards equipped with MIDI output for an amazing boost of turbocharged drawbar organ sound.  The ROLAND JUNO DS series offers several dozen organ presets that can be combined with ultra realistic pianos, percussion & instruments of all types!

[Delaware Dave]

I use a gemini module (mojo in a rack) and control the drawbars via 9 sliders from two different keybeds, one keyboard controls the upper drwbars and another keyboard controls the lower drawbars.  Zero latency. Also, program changes sent via midi are instantaneous.