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Periodic check of vintage madness


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Just a bit of fun - and disbelief - surfing the latest insane vintage synths prices:

 

Juno 106 3000 Eur

CS80 100,000 Eur!

Minimoog 11,770 Eur - plus shipping!

Jupiter 8 35,000 Eur

Roland System 100 11,300 Eur

Moog Model 12 23,000 Eur

etc.

 

Quite amusing, and sad at the same time in a way. Those instruments - most of them, anyway - were bought by musician by way of a lot of hard work, and now they demand prices that only speculators, or superstars, can afford.

 

 

 

 

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Indeed...but the bubble will eventually burst and those at the top of the pyramid will bit stuck with them or a huge loss.

 

But when??? I have an idea but it cant be discussed on here under forum rules but its perhaps linked to an alternate version why i believe house prices are so high. I think it will follow what housing does due to this link i cant discuss. 

 

What it means to struggling musos is we embrace the wonderful modern and cheap incarnations. (If i had money)

 

Ive always said a juno 106 was wimpy in its day (i can say that as an early adopter in Sydney but happy to rid mine a year later) and is still wimpy today. I dont underdtand its following other than its sliders etc.

 

Heck i still have a MK7 (106 in a box) and havent cranked it up for decades and they ask around half the price of a 106 now. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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A Roland Jupiter 8 did just sell on Reverb.com 3 weeks ago for US $35,000 before state sales tax, which added US$2,000-3,000 depending where the buyer lives

(everything sold on reverb.com is taxed regardless of wether the item is new or used)

 

Canadian guy I correspond with (started chatting with him over at the Moog Forum) speculated it was a crypto millionaire. I believe him to be correct.

 

 

:nopity:
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6 minutes ago, Doerfler said:

 

 

Canadian guy I correspond with (started chatting with him over at the Moog Forum) speculated it was a crypto millionaire. I believe him to be correct.

 

 

 Ahh interesting never thought of that an "easy come easy go collector" they wont care if there is a bust.

 

I imagined hard working rich people buying these but crypto has created another spectrum.

 

Fascinating

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I read "vintage madness" as "maintenance lunacy." I have the creepy feeling that the number of those who are both adept and dedicated enough to resuscitate an ailing synth is dwindling steadily. Parts acquisition is an element that becomes a bit more problematic all the time, as well. You can't rule the world if you can't get parts. That's part of why Behringer is able to successfully wiggle under the sow for that end teat and the chip shortage has slowed that wiggle down a lot.

 

If only a feelthy rich collector can afford one of the last few Jupiter-8s, the hooting becomes moot. That's why there's a Jupiter-X and software of the history of Roland to be had. If you want that "real" sound, invest in better speakers. What you're itching to hear is often easy to get if you drop another $400, plus or minus. It takes more budgeting, but I can attest to the great value of going there. If you're going to buy computers & synths, good speakers are standard kit. Buck up and eat your veggies.

 

Stop moaning about vintage hardware. The first time it craps out, you'll scream like a chicken. When you see the repair bill, you'll scream like a pterodactyl. Then you'll wise up and get the Jupiter-X.  :keys:

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"'I have bourbon.'"
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41 minutes ago, David Emm said:

I read "vintage madness" as "maintenance lunacy." I have the creepy feeling that the number of those who are both adept and dedicated enough to resuscitate an ailing synth is dwindling steadily. Parts acquisition is an element that becomes a bit more problematic all the time, as well. You can't rule the world if you can't get parts. That's part of why Behringer is able to successfully wiggle under the sow for that end teat and the chip shortage has slowed that wiggle down a lot.

 

If only a feelthy rich collector can afford one of the last few Jupiter-8s, the hooting becomes moot. That's why there's a Jupiter-X and software of the history of Roland to be had. If you want that "real" sound, invest in better speakers. What you're itching to hear is often easy to get if you drop another $400, plus or minus. It takes more budgeting, but I can attest to the great value of going there. If you're going to buy computers & synths, good speakers are standard kit. Buck up and eat your veggies.

 

Stop moaning about vintage hardware. The first time it craps out, you'll scream like a chicken. When you see the repair bill, you'll scream like a pterodactyl. Then you'll wise up and get the Jupiter-X.  :keys:

Fender "Tweed" amps from the 50's are fetching crazy money now too. I used to buy them at yard sales for $15-$40. 

Vintage guitars are insane and I honestly think some of the modern ones are way better sounding and playing by far. 

It's all in the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" past now. I had a 52 Tele, a 59 Strat, a 62 Jazzmaster and a one-off 67 Gretsch Viking that was truly a stereo Black Falcon - whoever ordered never picked it up. All long since gone, flipped and moved on. 

 

For me, the music matters. The tools are available, they don't have to be ancient to be good. In many cases, rather the opposite. 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Many of us remember when electromechanical KBs and analog synths were being given away. 

 

I believe nostalgia and disposable income has turned the gear of yesteryear into collector's items.  

 

The bubble will burst and someone will be left holding a worthless box of knobs, faders, buttons, switches and circuit boards with keys attached. 😁😎

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PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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7 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

Ive always said a juno 106 was wimpy in its day and is still wimpy today.

5 hours ago, Konnector said:

I wouldn't buy a mint Juno 106 if the going price today was $500.

 

Absolutely!

 

6 hours ago, David Emm said:

I read "vintage madness" as "maintenance lunacy."

The first time it craps out, you'll scream like a chicken. When you see the repair bill, you'll scream like a pterodactyl.

 

Totally true.

 

By contrast, I saw a Yamaha SY77 (in perfect conditions, the seller says) advertised for 150 Eur. A great instrument in its own way, just not "analog" or "vintage".... i would have bought it if I didn't own a TG77 (the rack version) already.

 

Thanks for the words of sanity.   :D  :thu:

 

 

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11 hours ago, ProfD said:

Many of us remember when electromechanical KBs and analog synths were being given away. 

 

I believe nostalgia and disposable income has turned the gear of yesteryear into collector's items.  

 

The bubble will burst and someone will be left holding a worthless box of knobs, faders, buttons, switches and circuit boards with keys attached. 😁😎

1993, I bought a Suitcase Rhodes for $300.  Sold it a year later for $100!!!!

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That SY77 is a great example of why I find many of these complaints — to a degree — misguided. I've owned and cared for my SY77 since I bought it new in 1990. 

 

Even disregarding the purchase price, I've kept it, provided and rented space and paid insurance for it for 30 years, and had to have it refurbed (buttons, floppy drive, power supply, display) two years ago to maintain it in a working state. The repairs alone cost 450€.
Yes, it would have been cheaper to buy a different one. But at some point, it won't be, because any others still around will require refurbing, as well. (Also, this was my first synth, so it wasn't a purely financial consideration.)

At that point, the price can't realistically be below 600€ — unless the keyboard simply vanishes as all the old ones just die and are turned into landfill. 

That doesn't explain $130,000 CS-80s or 3000€ Junos, of course. Some of that is the above, of course, with the added factor that working machines are becoming increasingly rare (I lost three Clavinets, several Leslies, two Hammonds, a Rhodes, an Oberheim Matrix 6, two MKS-70, a JX-10, a 606 and a bunch of other stuff in several catastrophes over the past decade). 

 

And then there's the niveau riche bitcoin investor factor of a fool and his money soon being parted, I suppose. 

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47 minutes ago, analogika said:

Bought a Stage Rhodes in 96 for about $200. Invested about a thousand in parts and refurbishing over the next two decades. 

 

What's it worth? 

 

Doesn't matter what it'w worth to someone else, IMO. You have had it for 25 years, keep it. :cheers:

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9 hours ago, marino said:

By contrast, I saw a Yamaha SY77 (in perfect conditions, the seller says) advertised for 150 Eur. A great instrument in its own way, just not "analog" or "vintage"....

 

Coincidentally, a band mate just gave me one he’s had for years that he wasn’t using.  What a fun instrument!

 

I owned a 106 for a few years back in the mid-80s.  Fun for what it was, but nowhere near as appealing to me without that chorus circuit.  

 

Honestly, I’d take the SY77 over a Juno 106 pretty much any day. :idk:

 

dB

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Not being a private collector or looking to open a museum - I think I’d prefer these types of instruments restored and updated.  New LED/LCDs, pots.  If they have storage, replacement of floppy disk drives with modern alternatives.  I think in the case of the 106 there is even a Kiwi upgrade, analogue renaissance chips that don’t fail.  
 

Do modded, restored, updated, improved, alterations increase or decrease value of these dinosaurs? 
 

Or we say screw it, and continue to fund the efforts of software modeling? 

Live: Yamaha CP88, Roland VR-700

Home: Rebuilt 1910 Chickering 5'2", Fender Rhodes MKI 88k, Casio PX-560

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As cool as vintage gear is, we are currently living in a golden age of synthesizers. From software to hardware, any sound you want is at your fingertips. No, the digital emulation of a Jupiter 8 might not sound 100% accurate, but so what? When the Jupiter 8 was released, it didn't sound like an Oberheim or a Moog or a piano or an organ or a real string section or anything else, yet it was used to 'emulate' all of those instruments and more. 

Use what you can afford and make music with it. It's never been less expensive to record your own music.

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I was just perusing Reverb yesterday and saw one of those $110k CS-80's.  Never owned one, but I gotta believe working musicians certainly aren't buying them.  My biggest mistakes over the years were trading an analog CX3 for a dinky Roland drum machine and selling a 145 for $200 when I needed the $.  Giving a "spaceship" style Rhodes to friends in CA when I moved back to MI rates right up there as well.  On the other hand, the instruments I have now are basically maintenance-free and sound great to my ears.  Seems to me we are fortunate indeed.

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30 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

As cool as vintage gear is, we are currently living in a golden age of synthesizers. From software to hardware, any sound you want is at your fingertips. No, the digital emulation of a Jupiter 8 might not sound 100% accurate, but so what? When the Jupiter 8 was released, it didn't sound like an Oberheim or a Moog or a piano or an organ or a real string section or anything else, yet it was used to 'emulate' all of those instruments and more. 

Use what you can afford and make music with it. It's never been less expensive to record your own music.

^^^ What he said ^^^

There is a barrage of new plugins, it's impossible to keep up with everything. At the same time, some of them sound completely amazing. 

Regarding emulations, there are so many variables in how things are sampled that expectations are simply unrealistic.

 

You could take the same grand piano and put it in 5 different rooms and it will sound different in each room. You could use 5 different top-of-the-line microphones and it will not sound the same. You could use 5 different microphone set ups and it will not sound the same. 5x5x5= 125 different variations in sound from just those changes. 

Age of the strings, the temperament of the tuning, who played it and how - there are umpty-bajillion variations for one piano. 

 

Synths? Move 2 knobs a small amount, different tone. With variations in tolerances of components you may not get 2 out of 10 samples of one synth to sound the same on the same settings. This is assuming that everybody will use the same exact A/D and D/A convertor (not just the same brand, the same actual piece of gear).

 

If it sounds good, use it. 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I've been selling off a lot of my gear recently. Before listing for sale I check prices everywhere and price my items for less. Sometimes I see equivalent gear priced at twice my price. Even so I get all kinds of lowball offers and it can take months to sell.

 

I sold my C3 and Leslie 122 and it took five months to sell even though it was the lowest priced around and I took over one thousand less than asking price. I have had my Hammond M102 for sale just as long and I get a $25 offer.

 

Synths are another story. I had my Juno 60 up for sale at a lower price than any others. I got a lot of ridiculously low offers but held firm and got my price from one of the guys who initially lowballed me. My original MS-20 sold at my asking price and I got that for free years ago. Due to its extreme rarity I have my CS70M up for sale at a typically high eBay price and it gets a lot of interest but so far nobody has offered anything close to the asking price.

 

Guitar amps and gear sells pretty quickly and of the three amps I've sold I got my asking price. I have one more for sale and I'm pretty sure I will get the asking price. I sold a Rockman Sustainor 200 and got full asking price. My original 1982 Rat pedal is high priced and hasn't yet sold after six months.

 

Older digital gear often goes for giveaway prices. I sold a DX7 and Roland S50 for cheap but they did need some repair.

 

I listed two bass guitars for sale. I quickly got my asking price for a Fender Japan Jazz Bass. I have had another rare but lesser-known bass for sale and it still hasn't sold.

 

I sold two Atari computers, a Mega ST2 and a Stacy 4 and had to let them go cheap but they will need some refurbishing. Atari's are popular with teenagers as gaming computers.

 

I had two Hohner Pianet N EPs and sold them fairly cheap to the same guy who also refurbishes Rhodes pianos.

 

I'm keeping my Jupiter 6, OB8, Matrix 12, Prophet 5 rev. 2, and Pro-One most of which I bought new. I'm seeing prices approaching or exceeding 10K for a Jupiter 6, OB series is now over 12K, Pro-One up to around 3K, any rev. vintage Prophet 5 around 10K, and the Matrix 12 is getting close to 20K.

 

Also keeping most of my combo organs and Rhodes Piano Bass. I have a Farfisa Compact, Vox Super Continental, and GEM Model P up for sale but aren't generating much interest.

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While vintage electromechanical KBs were emulative too, there is a physical connection and vibe to the instrument from a player's perspective.  It varies depending on the condition of the instrument.

 

OTOH, I haven't encountered a player experience/connection to an analog or digital KB to justify spending spending 7X what it cost brand new and 35k times what it cost when folks were giving them away. 😁

 

To @Jim Alfredson's point, IMO, every KB manufacturer provides a reasonable facsimile of the "greatest hits" synth sounds in their latest KB offerings.  There's definitely enough onboard source material to play any type of music.😎

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PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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I acquired my vintage synths to play, not for investment.  Wasn't aiming for a "collection" but it became that as a default (one fellow musician calls it a museum).  Time was on my side as I acquired these things before their value shot up.  By the time I was happy with my arsenal and had no desire to add more, the vintage madness had set in.

 

I'm aware that I am one of the few people who are fortunate to have the skills to maintain and restore their vintage gear.  Sad to say, maintenance is the price of admission.  While there are plugins, they LOOK like the real things but to my trained ears few hit the mark soundwise.  I'll keep my hardware, thank you (most of my vintage synths have MIDI retrofits).  Can't deny that zero maintenance plugins have some strong appeal, and it's a great way to start out.

 

Is restored gear worth the mark up in price?  I would argue that broken gear is not worth the same as functional gear.  Proof is a store in Rochester NY (House Of guitars) that has piles of vintage guitar amps.  Most of those amps are not functional and need restoration.  But the HOG demands top dollar for broken amps, and they sit unsold for years.  They also have a room of overpriced broken vintage keyboards (EPs, 5 broken ARP Omnis, etc)... stuff sits for years, unsold.

But restored vintage synths that are overpriced won't sell quickly, if at all.  I won't name names but two well known eBay sellers list their overpriced synths too often, they never sell, and they never lower the price when relisted.  Real estate agents tell you if your house doesn't sell then it is priced too high.  Those sellers on auction sites just don't get it.

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3 minutes ago, The Real MC said:


But restored vintage synths that are overpriced won't sell quickly, if at all.  I won't name names but two well known eBay sellers list their overpriced synths too often, they never sell, and they never lower the price when relisted.  Real estate agents tell you if your house doesn't sell then it is priced too high.  Those sellers on auction sites just don't get it.

I remember looking at the gear on Reverb that was being sold by Rick Wakeman.  Outrageous asking prices for arguably crappy gear in crappy condition.  I could see a Wakeman Minimoog having some collector value, but an overpriced Korg DS8???  NOOOO.

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5 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

Honestly, I’d take the SY77 over a Juno 106 pretty much any day. :idk:

dB

 

Ha! Easy choice. :D

 

My 106 story: In February 1987, I was about to leave for a long engagement in Japan. The production would provide a grand piano, plus any two keyboard of my choice, as long as they were Japanese and current. I already hated the 106 at that time, but I thought that it would have been wise to ask for some quite popular instrument - so I said a DX7 and a Juno 106, please. Then I rented those two in Italy for the reharsals - and I can't explain how much I hated the 106, with its small, undistinguished, inefficient, boring sound.

After having suffered thru five days of reharsals, once arrived at Tokyo I found that they took the initiative to replace the 106 with a JX-8p! I was delighted: The difference was like night and day. I had to spend my entire "off" day to familiarize with the JX and memorize patches, but the first show went smoothly, and after that I spent some happy months with the JX.
To think that today the Juno is valued two or three times the JX is surreal/amusing.

 

4 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

As cool as vintage gear is, we are currently living in a golden age of synthesizers. From software to hardware, any sound you want is at your fingertips.
Use what you can afford and make music with it. It's never been less expensive to record your own music.

 

This is absolutely true. We never had so many choices for instruments before. The modern analogs sound good. Likewise the B clones. A lot of sophisticated digital hardware as well. And the software... well, I think it could be said that for the first time in history, professional results can be achieved using mainly free software, or anyway spending a tiny fraction of what was necessary only 15 years ago. Surge is free, Vital almost free, and several analog emulations sound great. Not to speak of recording/mixing/mastering equipment.

 

Which of course, makes those absurd prices for vintage stuff even more baffling....

 

Btw, it's been instructive and entertaining to read your stories and points of view. I'm in the process of rethinking my whole rig, so I'm glad to hear ideas and perspectives... but that's for another thread. :)

 

 

 

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Since I make my living as a musician, I'm of two brains: The practical and the ideal. The practical side of me knows what tools I need to do my job and sound my best.  Digital Hammonds, Kurzweils, etc. The ideal side wants all the cool new synths like the PolyBrute and Iridium. But those will not make me any money. I am constantly fighting those two sides.

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The Hammond market is pretty good most of the time but since the Facebook groups things have flattened.  That said I sold 6 Leslie's in 7 months which is pretty good and I sold them and did OK.  Most people tell me Hammond organs and Leslie's sell better as a pair but I don't agree.  Too often people need Leslie's and there are fewer of them around so that is where the money is in a lot of rigs I see.

"Danny, ci manchi a tutti. La E-Street Band non e' la stessa senza di te. Riposa in pace, fratello"

 

 

noblevibes.com

 

 

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I just sold my C3 and Leslie 122. It took about 5 months to sell with a lot of lowball offers. I ended up taking a lot less than I was asking but it is now in a church getting regular use. I had several offers for just the Leslie including one from a local dealer who would likely make a good profit matching it with one of several B3's he has for sale. I'm pretty sure I would still have the C3 if I had sold the Leslie separately.

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5 hours ago, Outkaster said:

The Hammond market is pretty good most of the time but since the Facebook groups things have flattened.  That said I sold 6 Leslie's in 7 months which is pretty good and I sold them and did OK.  Most people tell me Hammond organs and Leslie's sell better as a pair but I don't agree.  Too often people need Leslie's and there are fewer of them around so that is where the money is in a lot of rigs I see.

 

I see two reasons why Leslies are in demand:

1) Vintage Hammonds sold either without a Leslie or with a non-Leslie speaker cabinet

2) Organ players who leave the vintage Hammond at home and gig a clonewheel, and need a gigging Leslie.

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