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Better Than Daylight Savings Time?


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So...the Senate passed a bill to have daylight savings time year-round. Those with long memories might remember it was tried in the 70s, and didn't work out well. These are different times, though...and I'd love it.

 

But let's go further and do it right: one time zone for the whole world, maybe Greenwich Mean Time. When it's 13:00 in LA, it's 13:00 in Beijing, Paris, Tokyo, you name it. Just think how much easier this would make travel - if my plane leaves here at 14:30 and arrives in Seattle at 20:30, I know it's a six hour flight. On conference calls, there's none of this "Is that 1 PM your time, my time, or the time zone of the guy in Berlin?"

 

I'm serious about this. Sure, it would take some psychological adjustment for people not to associate 12 noon with the sun being overhead. One argument would be "well we have standard office hours of 9 to 5." But are office hours really standard anymore? And so what if you look up a company's office hours, and find it's from 17:00 to 23:00 hours? That's when you'd show up, regardless of whether it was "morning" or "afternoon" where you were. Office hours would be set locally. So the only disadvantage I see is that hours of operation would always be local instead of national, but we could get used to it...right? After all, you don't search on Target's hours in Los Angeles, unless you live there. You want to know when it's open where you live.

 

Tech support may only be open from 10 AM to 1 PM - but is that their time, or your time? If you knew they were open from 9:00 to 11:00, then you'd call them when your clock was between 9:00 and 11:00. And none of this deal with TV shows being 9 eastern, 8 central, and 6 pacific, because they're all airing at the same time anyway! Just give the time, and tune in.

 

This seems to make so much sense there must be some horrible flaw with it that I'm missing. So, what's the problem?

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I love the long days as much as anyone else, but I don't think it's worth the price.

 

Daylight Savings Time in the winter, means our children will be walking to and waiting at school bus stops during the pitch black nighttime hours. This leaves them at a higher risk for accidents and kidnapping.

 

Sure, businesses do better when it's light out later, you can get in a round of golf after work, but our children are our most prescious beings, and to put them at risk more than negates an additional hour of fun in the evening.

 

I've e-mailed "my" representatives and the president. If you feel the children are more important than a bit more daylight, please do the same.

 

I recommend good old standard time all year long. 10,000 sundials can't be wrong.

 

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If Craig is saying that we should have one set time for the world and not move it, I agree. 

 

The concept of "time" was created for our convenience, it's anything but. 

My Lummi family celebrates the end of Winter with a dancing, drumming, eating a meal together ceremony. 

They choose the date when the weather tells them to, not by some calendar. They are happy and I am happy for them. 

 

I dislike Daylight Bullshit Time, it's stupid. "Oh looky, we "lose" an hour here every year but we "gain" it back here." That is just stupid, like believing in the Easter bunny or something. This far north the sun will rise at 8am and set at 4:16 pm every Dec 21st, give or take a few minutes. Given that the first and last half hour of that time is still pretty dark, you get about 7 hours of daylight no matter what time you say it is. On June 21st the sun rises at 5:07am and sets at 9:17pm and there is nearly an hour of growing lightness before and after those times, you get around 20 hours of light and that's that. 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

Daylight Savings Time in the winter, means our children will be walking to and waiting at school bus stops during the pitch black nighttime hours. This leaves them at a higher risk for accidents and kidnapping.

 

 

 

It's easy for people without children not to realize this, thanks for bringing it up. 

:nopity:
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35 minutes ago, Doerfler said:

 

It's easy for people without children not to realize this, thanks for bringing it up. 

 

Here's an article about year-round daylight savings time that basically says there are pros and cons, but the cons outweigh the pros. But check out this article that lists school start times. They're not all uniform. Alaska starts later because there's less sunlight. States more to the south start earlier.

 

Remember, school start times and calendar dates in the United States are determined by the respective school districts within each state. School could start at sun up and end at sunset, if that's what a school district wanted. Tying events to arbitrary numbers instead of natural events seems silly. There's long been a debate anyway that school starts too early to be healthy for kids, and doesn't let them get enough sleep. Thinking back to my school days, I would have preferred a later start :)

 

If the world followed my idea of one time, you'd simply calibrate the day however you wanted. If school starts too early, don't change the clocks, or force kids to stand out in the dark...change when school starts. 

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2 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

Here's an article about year-round daylight savings time that basically says there are pros and cons, but the cons outweigh the pros. But check out this article that lists school start times. They're not all uniform. Alaska starts later because there's less sunlight. States more to the south start earlier.

 

Remember, school start times and calendar dates in the United States are determined by the respective school districts within each state. School could start at sun up and end at sunset, if that's what a school district wanted. Tying events to arbitrary numbers instead of natural events seems silly. There's long been a debate anyway that school starts too early to be healthy for kids, and doesn't let them get enough sleep. Thinking back to my school days, I would have preferred a later start :)

 

If the world followed my idea of one time, you'd simply calibrate the day however you wanted. If school starts too early, don't change the clocks, or force kids to stand out in the dark...change when school starts. 

 

Craig, I agree with everything in your post. Teachers unions are very difficult (I'm being polite here).

:nopity:
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5 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Daylight Savings Time in the winter, means our children will be walking to and waiting at school bus stops during the pitch black nighttime hours. This leaves them at a higher risk for accidents and kidnapping.

Why can't they change the school hours to avoid that problem?

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Dammit...you're all being logical. Shame on you :)

 

Well, since no one has said I'm insane yet, here's my other proposal. 

 

A year that consists of 13 months, each with 28 days (i.e., every month is exactly four weeks). I mean c'mon, isn't it ridiculous that we're still going along with this "I'm Emperor Augustus, MY month has to be longer just because I effing say so and I'm so effing awesome, so it's 31 days for me"?

 

This leaves an extra day during the year (two during leap year). By international decree, the extra day(s) becomes "international vacation/have a good time day" when no one works. 

 

I promise if you make me emperor, these things will come to pass 😆

 

And don't get me started on the English system of weights and measurements..."In the 12th century, King Henry I of England fixed the yard as the distance from his nose to the thumb of his out-stretched arm." Seriously?!?

 

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13 minutes ago, Anderton said:

Dammit...you're all being logical. Shame on you :)

 

Well, since no one has said I'm insane yet, here's my other proposal. 

 

A year that consists of 13 months, each with 28 days (i.e., every month is exactly four weeks). I mean c'mon, isn't it ridiculous that we're still going along with this "I'm Emperor Augustus, MY month has to be longer just because I effing say so and I'm so effing awesome, so it's 31 days for me"?

 

This leaves an extra day during the year (two during leap year). By international decree, the extra day(s) becomes "international vacation/have a good time day" when no one works. 

 

I promise if you make me emperor, these things will come to pass 😆

 

And don't get me started on the English system of weights and measurements..."In the 12th century, King Henry I of England fixed the yard as the distance from his nose to the thumb of his out-stretched arm." Seriously?!?

 

If you shorten the months, you'll take people's birthdays away from them. 

This will lead to Insurrection and Defiance. 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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32 minutes ago, KuruPrionz said:

If you shorten the months, you'll take people's birthdays away from them. 

This will lead to Insurrection and Defiance. 

 

Admittedly, I hadn't thought of that (as you've probably noticed, "arbitrary" is not my middle name, LOL). But all the people with the old birthday dates will die out over time anyway :) The hard part, I guess, will be deciding on a name for the 13th month. Although the people with a fear of 13 will likely lobby against it...okay, we'll just stick with universal time for now. That seems less controversial. 

 

But come to think of it, a birthday just marks a trip around the sun. I prefer to mark my birthday in Martian years. That way, I'm only 39 years old. Or maybe Saturn years...then I'd only be about 2.5 years. Only problem there is I wouldn't be old enough to drive.

 

Full disclosure: One year I forgot my birthday. It's just another day, and to me, every day is equally important. So the concept doesn't loom large in my life.

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5 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

Admittedly, I hadn't thought of that (as you've probably noticed, "arbitrary" is not my middle name, LOL). But all the people with the old birthday dates will die out over time anyway :) The hard part, I guess, will be deciding on a name for the 13th month. Although the people with a fear of 13 will likely lobby against it...okay, we'll just stick with universal time for now. That seems less controversial. 

 

But come to think of it, a birthday just marks a trip around the sun. I prefer to mark my birthday in Martian years. That way, I'm only 39 years old. Or maybe Saturn years...then I'd only be about 2.5 years. Only problem there is I wouldn't be old enough to drive.

 

Full disclosure: One year I forgot my birthday. It's just another day, and to me, every day is equally important. So the concept doesn't loom large in my life.

I figure as we get older we get a month for our birthday anyway. 

Also, if we have 5 day weeks everything will come out even. Every 5 leap years (20 years I think?) we can just add one more week for that year. Simple. 

In keeping with a Base 5 system, we could have 25 hours per day instead of 24. 

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Besides, 10,000 sundials can't be wrong.

 

If we go permanent DST, who is going to go about resetting them all?

 

Seriously

 

I get up around 7 every morning. When DST took effect in March, it was pitch black at 7AM here, and the sun rises in March much later than it does in mid-winter. 

 

If on DST, in January, the sun won't even begin to rise until after 8 AM.

 

Do we really want our children to be walking to and waiting at the bus stop when it is pitch black out?

 

Is an hour of extra daylight worth the lives it will possibly take?

 

I don't have small children, but I do like the children in my neighborhood very much. And I can't imagine the devastation to the lives of any parent if their child gets killed or maimed in a pre-dawn "sorry, I didn't see him/her" accident.

 

I've written to "my" representatives and the president, if you are concerned about child safety, I encourage you to do the same.

 

Notes ♫

 

 

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1 hour ago, Notes_Norton said:

Is an hour of extra daylight worth the lives it will possibly take?

 

Well, there are two issues to consider. There are pros and cons either way caused by trying to force our bodies to ignore circadian rhythms. 

 

The problem isn't the time, it's the shifting. So one goal is to eliminate the time shift, in which case it doesn't matter whether you stay on standard time or go to DST. Here's a very interesting study: 

 

The act of shifting between standard and daylight saving times is linked to a variety of negative health outcomes, according to a 2020 study, including higher rates of heart disease and more traffic accidents.

 

Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., one of the bipartisan bill's main backers, said he would expect year-round daylight saving time to reduce crime with later hours of sunshine, decrease child obesity by encouraging kids to play later into the day and put a dent in seasonal depression rates (approximately 5% of Americans have issues with seasonal depression, so that's around 16 million people).

 

There are already places in the US where kids go to school in the dark. The problem regarding kids getting up in the dark has nothing to do with what clocks say. It relates to the inflexibility of schools to alter their start times to match up with the seasons. It makes no sense to say that the natural circadian rhythms of the body should be synched to an arbitrary set of numbers, rather than the natural forces that create those rhythms.

 

People are slaves to habit. They aren't thinking outside of these arbitrary boundaries that were set in stone at the beginning of the industrial age. It's not the industrial age anymore! Pretending that circadian rhythms are governed by clocks will never create a true solution, because the premise itself is wrong. The solution is figuring out a practical way for us to live in harmony with circadian rhythms.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Anderton said:

 

 The problem regarding kids getting up in the dark has nothing to do with what clocks say. It relates to the inflexibility of schools to alter their start times to match up with the seasons.

 

 

 

Exactly. Getting teachers unions to change is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

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I know you mentioned it, but why would the teacher's union be opposed to it? I would think teachers wouldn't mind getting up in the winter when it's light out. 

 

Also, I don't really know how the union thing works these days, but when I was a member of local #802 of the musician's union in New York, it had a certain degree of autonomy. So, could the union members in, say, Minnesota make decisions that would be different from union members in Louisiana? Schools already have different start times that varies state by state, and even locality by locality, so there's some mechanism in place that allows this to happen.

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Here is an article referencing how difficult this change would be. Pertains to Montgomery County MD, bordering northwest Washington DC. You can't even imagine how many years it took to get this small change. Details in the hyperlink 

 

The Montgomery County Board of Education voted Tuesday (Feb. 10, 2015) to change school starting and ending times in Montgomery County Public Schools (MCPS) for the 2015-2016 school year—moving middle and high school start times 20 minutes later and elementary school start times 10 minutes later.

 

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/info/belltimes/#:~:text=The Montgomery County Board of,start times 10 minutes later.

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Okay, I've done a lot of research into this, and have come to conclusions of which I'm quite confident:

 

  • Staying on standard time year-round sucks.
  • Staying on daylight savings time year-round sucks more.
  • Switching between the two sucks the most.

 

So...I'm left with still thinking that the solution is having a more fluid conception of time, so it reflects our biological needs rather than an arbitrary numbering system.

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I really wish they would stop calling it Daylight Savings Time.

It does not "save" any daylight or change the slightest increment of time of daylight or darkness on any given day. 

Propaganda, nothing more. Hasn't changed the cycles of the moon either, essentially it does nothing at all. Therefore there is no reason for it. 

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It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Okay, here are my two cents:

 

For thousands of years, we have lived by the notion that it’s noon when the sun hits its zenith. Are we to throw that out, just because a group of people would prefer our society to run on an 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM schedule instead of 9-5? The dictionary definition of "noon" is "midday," and midday is the time at which the sun reaches the halfway point between dawn and dusk. Scientifically speaking, on Daylight Savings Time, what we’re calling “12 noon” is in reality ante meridiem (AM), yet we call it PM (post meridiem). Noon isn't midday anymore; midday has become 1:00 PM.

 

I was really bothered by Senate passage the other day, especially considering that they didn’t even poll members for a vote. Even so, I felt silly by how upset I was—after all, we’re living with the escalated threat of nuclear war, which potentially dwarfs any other issue—but I look at this as legislated lying. If someone wants to lie, that’s their business; but I don’t like being in a situation in which I have to lie about the time in order to be understood. The only alternative is to say something like, “Well it’s really going to be 1:00 PM, but I’ll meet you at what we’re calling 2:00 PM,” when I make plans with people. That would get old fast.

 

(It’s amusing to think that the only issue that Senate Democrats and Republicans could unanimously agree on is that it’s a good idea to lie all year long, but I digress.)

 

I also agree with the circadian rhythm and school kids arguments above. I was one of those kids who waited in the snow in the dark for the school bus, when I lived in Wisconsin. I have fond memories of the bus rides, but I didn't much like waiting alone in the dark.

 

Not surprisingly, I'm in favor of completely eradicating Daylight Savings Time. I happily lived for years without it when I was an Arizona resident, and I don't recall anyone there missing it at all. If people want to wake up earlier, they'll find another way to do it.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

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On 3/19/2022 at 2:57 PM, Anderton said:

 

And don't get me started on the English system of weights and measurements..."In the 12th century, King Henry I of England fixed the yard as the distance from his nose to the thumb of his out-stretched arm." Seriously?!?

 

 

Except of course only three countries in the world officially still use that system :) 

 

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The sun is straight up at noon, 10,000 sundials can't be wrong.

 

Astronomy pros and hobbyists don't like DST at all, https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/daylight-saving-time-bah-humbug/ is an interesting article from their point of view.

 

Our local astronomers club call it Dark-sky Stealing Time

 

Longer days don't deter crime, longer days don't give the children with their noses glued to their phones more time to exercise, longer days do make more profits for businesses, and that's what it's all about.

 

Just put the sun at noon and if some businesses want to start the day earlier in the summer, let them do it.

 

Noon is mid-day. Period.

 

So far, nobody has given me a good reason to abandon that.

 

Notes

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3 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

Noon is mid-day. Period.

 

So far, nobody has given me a good reason to abandon that.

 

Well, if the world adopted the same numerical time around the world, the issue of daylight savings time, standard time, etc. goes away. It also would prevent misunderstandings about meetings, travel schedules, etc. It seems, at least to me, like it would be more accommodating to the "global wired village" our world has become, as well as the trend toward flex-time and other time-adjustable concepts, like 4-day vs. 5-day work weeks. Maybe I'll just start scheduling conference calls in Greenwich Mean Time :)

 

I'm sure that this flies so much in the face of tradition that people would have a hard time getting used to, for example, 13:00 hours being the same anywhere around the world, but is it really tradition?

 

The practice of dividing a day into 24 hours comes from the ancient Egyptians, who preferred using base 12 instead of base 10 (they counted joints on fingers with their thumb instead of the way we count on fingers, and there are twelve joints in your hand). What's more, with sundials, the actual elapsed time of an hour changed with the seasons because of the sun hitting the sundial at different angles. Eventually the Greeks decided that fixed hour intervals were needed for theoretical calculations, although in practice people kept using variable-length hours.

 

It wasn't until the 14th century, when Europeans invented clocks, that an hour represented a fixed amount of elapsed time. And thus started the modern trend of giving up something that accommodates our bodies and nature for something that accommodates a machine.

 

So, the reason we think 12:00 corresponds to when the sun is overhead is because Egyptians counted in base 12 due to having three joints on each finger :) (and it also relates tangentially to the number of decan stars). If Europeans had invented timekeeping, they probably would have divided the equal time for night and day at the equinox to 10 hours night, 10 hours day.

 

Don't get me started on why there are 60 minutes in an hour and 60 seconds in a minute, we owe that one to the ancient Babylonians  

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I concede that the numerical divisions we use for time are human made. Noon and midnight, on the other hand, are not numerical divisions, despite any number we've assigned them. They are the scientific anchors in which we root our notion of time.

 

Even though our time divisions are somewhat arbitrary, they are no more arbitrary than much of our language; yet we must agree on their meanings if we are to communicate with one another. Daylight Savings Time obscures the meanings of words we use to describe time. So far, I've never seen anyone on DST refer to 1:00 PM as noon nor 1:00 AM as midnight, for instance.

 

As for world time, I agree that Greenwich Mean Time already serves that function. The more we communicate globally, the more value it will have in governing our planning discussions. Perhaps future generations will eventually abandon the notion of local time, or maybe its emphasis will merely decline when compared to GMT. As usual, Craig, you are ahead of your time. (No pun intended.)

 

Best,

 

Geoff

My Blue Someday appears on Apple Music | Spotify | YouTube | Amazon

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4 hours ago, Geoff Grace said:

As usual, Craig, you are ahead of your time. (No pun intended.)

 

I think you meant behind the times, as in, I kinda like the 13th-century variable hour concept :)

 

TBH, there were other things I didn't like about the 14th century...not a fan of the plague, for example.

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I always assumed the 24-hour day, the 12 inches to a foot, and similar systems were ways of dividing things by either 2 or 3 before people figured out how to use fractions.

 

It might be nice to change time to base 10, but to do that universally would be expensive and difficult. How many analog clocks and watches would have to be replaced, from Big Ben to the Astronomical Clock in Prague, to zillions of alarm clocks and wristwatches.

 

I still think that whatever base we use, midday and midnight should be starting and ending points.

 

I read an article last night that stated that if DST became permanent, people on the western edge of a time zone might not see the mid-winter sun rise until after 9AM. Not only does that put children at bus stops in danger, but in the past when permanent DST was tried, it greatly increased automobile accidents during the commute.

 

One time zone like China, but for the world? I would have some conveniences, but that means nobody has a similar day hour wise.

 

The big problem the way I see it is this: If it's noon in Greenwich England and someone wants to call someone in Brisbane, Australia, he/she can look at a chart, see Brisbane is GMT+10 or 10 PM and the caller knows that the Australian is not at work, and it could be close to bedtime, depending on how well the English person knows the Australian.

 

On the other hand, If it's noon all over, it's also noon in Brisbane and the caller would have to know the average time Brisbane usually wakes up, goes to work, and goes to sleep.

 

In this age of International business, If I want to call Tokyo, I just look at a chart, or google it and I know if it's morning, noon, afternoon, evening or night in Tokyo. That will keep me from calling someone in the middle of their night.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

 

Bob "Notes" Norton

Owner, Norton Music http://www.nortonmusic.com

Style and Fake disks for Band-in-a-Box

The Sophisticats http://www.s-cats.com >^. .^< >^. .^<

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