Powered speaker saga - with a happy ending

[cphollis]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Speakers are a pretty basic technology, big changes come pretty slowly. There was a big advance with Class D amplifiers, in terms of getting high power from a lightweight amplifier. The more recent advance has been in DSP, I guess more digital processing is what we'll see next.

 

I'm keeping my eye on the "racetrack" drivers that are coming out of mobile technology (phones, tablets, etc.).  It's early days, but you would be surprised at what they can do.  Rather than moving a large speaker surface a small distance, they move a smaller one a much greater distance, so I guess the same amount of air is being moved either way.  My first experience was with the Bose F1 subs (only 10" drivers!) that punch way above their size and weight.

[cphollis]

15 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Speakers are a pretty basic technology, big changes come pretty slowly. There was a big advance with Class D amplifiers, in terms of getting high power from a lightweight amplifier. The more recent advance has been in DSP, I guess more digital processing is what we'll see next.

FWIW, the other recent development I find interesting are the newer hybrids between compact line arrays and traditional point source loudspeakers.  We've seen both types of components on sticks, mounted as columns, etc. but more recently smaller ones placed in front of the point source, with smart DSP to make it all sound pretty, so a new variation.  As an example, my recent Bose F1 tops are very different in terms of both dispersion and projection than any other single cabinet I've worked with.  A few others are picking up on the idea, we'll see where it goes.

[Shamanzarek]

I just sold a K12 I've had for about eight years. There was a huge response for my ad and I got $650 which I was asking for it. I never used the K12 except for rehearsals and didn't really like the sound of it. I hooked it up to my Casio PX-5S to demo for sale and it sounded fantastic. I may have made a mistake letting it go.

[TommyRude]

Hey guys.. finally got around to doing the shootout.  BIG CAVEAT - everything I do here is suspect!  My playing, the setup, the equipment, mic placement, volume control, you name it! I am not a professional shootist, just trying to share what I'm hearing.  Probably should center the H6.. dohhh

 

 

[cphollis]

Thanks for that.  No surprise -- both are more than enough for most situations, but I thought the K8.2s had that little bit of extra presence and authority that I could even hear on your Zoom recorder.  The EVs definitely win in the bang for buck department, and because they are less expensive more people can afford two of them.

[DJkeys]

Thanks for doing this.  I have a couple of the QSC K8.2s, and also use the the default setting with a little EQ. Once I did this, they sounded fantastic for acoustic piano and everything else-

 

-dj

 

 

[hookie]

1 hour ago, DJKeys said:

Thanks for doing this.  I have a couple of the QSC K8.2s, and also use the the default setting with a little EQ. Once I did this, they sounded fantastic for acoustic piano and everything else-

 

-dj

 

 

Thanks for sharing this, I give it a try. 

[HammondDave]

I echo my colleagues in thanking you.  But You should do another test cranking them to band volume.  Then you will hear a huge difference between the two.  

[TommyRude]

6 hours ago, HammondDave said:

I echo my colleagues in thanking you.  But You should do another test cranking them to band volume.  Then you will hear a huge difference between the two.  

true true - at the time I did this I was afraid my neighbors might freak if I cranked them!

[El Lobo]

I thank you too. I heard more presence in the QSC's. But the differences are subtle and may not be very noticeable in a loud gig situation. Like Hammond Dave, I wonder what's noticeable at loud band volume, and also in a mix from a postage-stamp stage in your local dive bar.  

[HammondDave]

3 hours ago, El Lobo said:

I thank you too. I heard more presence in the QSC's. But the differences are subtle and may not be very noticeable in a loud gig situation. Like Hammond Dave, I wonder what's noticeable at loud band volume, and also in a mix from a postage-stamp stage in your local dive bar.  

I only say this because this is why I returned my QSC’s.  For cocktail lounge volumes they are great. But if you are performing with bands that require louder sound levels, they totally fall apart and sound “honky”. Lots of midrange with reduced highs and lows.  The EV’s thrive at these louder sound levels. 

[cphollis]

Agreed, things are different if you're playing at higher volume.  For me, it's been a choice: speakers that sound great up to the limit, or speakers that sound mediocre up to that point and sound great there.  I haven't had to play with roaring speakers for quite some time, thankfully, these days the PA is doing most of the work. 

 

If I was playing in a situation where I found myself up against the upper limits of my 8s, I'd consider 12s as they tend to breathe easier at higher volume levels.  I'm sure the speaker makers have to choose between "sounds great at moderate volume" and "kicks ass when cranked" because few do both well.

[drohm]

I never liked the QSCs for piano sounds at band volumes. Like you guys have stated, "honky" sounding. I sold my K10s a long time ago. I do like my Yamaha DXR10s at any volume. There is a louder noise floor when using DI and mic inputs, but it is not noticeable when playing with a band. I would like to get my hands on the EV  ZXA1s after reading the posts on this thread. Thanks for the video Tommy!

[AnotherScott]

3 minutes ago, drohm said:

I never liked the QSCs for piano sounds at band volumes. Like you guys have stated, "honky" sounding. I sold my K10s a long time ago. 

 

I've never tried the 10s, but the K8.2 sounds better to me than the K8 did, I suspect the K10.2 is similarly better than the K10.

[DJkeys]

5 hours ago, HammondDave said:

I only say this because this is why I returned my QSC’s.  For cocktail lounge volumes they are great. But if you are performing with bands that require louder sound levels, they totally fall apart and sound “honky”. Lots of midrange with reduced highs and lows.  The EV’s thrive at these louder sound levels. 

Interesting, this has not been my experience at all.  I played with a very loud band just before moving to Nevada and the QSCs sounded great, and I really hate "honkiness"

 

-dj

[Reezekeys]

I have zero complaints with my original K8s and have done some pretty loud gigs with them. Maybe that's because having a laptop rig I can throw a separate EQ on any sound source or patch. Except for special cases I don't bother getting that microscopic, since a global EQ right before my main output, with low-mids notched, works OK for almost everything. Sometimes I'll tweak the eq a little depending on speaker placement & degree of reflective surfaces around me. If I didn't have this kind of EQ control I don't think I'd be happy with the sound from any PPA.

[Theo Verelst]

For playing keyboards, pure neutrality like one would expect from monitors can be prefered from powered speakers but it's hard to create PA-like sound that works, even from not so small speakers, also the question is : for a performance, do you want your digital sound to be processed by the amplification or as pure as possible. When I listened to the YT this week on my large monitors the QSC sounded more controlled, though I couldn't really step over a certain transient coloring with both which IMO didn't come from the room.

 

Digital can be harsh and unpleasant, pushing speakers loud isn't the same effect as digital effects readily supply, but unless it's well known guitar stuff, it isn't great in most cases....

 

Theo

[Werno]

Thanks for doing the 'shootout', from someone who's been considering those two speakers as options for practices and live monitoring. One suggestion that would improve things would be to get the Zoom up on a mic stand or anywhere other than sitting on the keyboard, where it's picking up all the mechanical noise it generates. I'm listening on earbuds, which doesn't help the situation.

 

Still a useful exercise. From what I'm hearing the QSCs sound flatter/smoother and would probably be my preference for a long practice session playing jazz piano, but given the price difference the EVs are sounding plenty good to me too.

[TommyRude]

12 hours ago, cphollis said:

Agreed, things are different if you're playing at higher volume.  For me, it's been a choice: speakers that sound great up to the limit, or speakers that sound mediocre up to that point and sound great there. 

FYI to the group - the EV's sound good to me at all levels - I just happened to have both sets of speakers at more normal volume for the shootout.  Definitely not mediocre to my ears.  And I don't think the QSCs sound bad, I just think the EVs sounded better (at all volume levels).  BUT - I need to check those voicings on the QSCs!

[TommyRude]

3 hours ago, Werno said:

Thanks for doing the 'shootout', from someone who's been considering those two speakers as options for practices and live monitoring. One suggestion that would improve things would be to get the Zoom up on a mic stand or anywhere other than sitting on the keyboard, where it's picking up all the mechanical noise it generates. I'm listening on earbuds, which doesn't help the situation.

yes yes yes I know I know!!  I mentioned those caveats in my post.  Centering the zoom on a stand would be MUCH better - I think I was just cranking this out as quick as I could without freaking out the neighbors.  (note that I have excuses for everything :-)

[TommyRude]

9 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

I have zero complaints with my original K8s and have done some pretty loud gigs with them. Maybe that's because having a laptop rig I can throw a separate EQ on any sound source or patch. Except for special cases I don't bother getting that microscopic, since a global EQ right before my main output, with low-mids notched, works OK for almost everything. Sometimes I'll tweak the eq a little depending on speaker placement & degree of reflective surfaces around me. If I didn't have this kind of EQ control I don't think I'd be happy with the sound from any PPA.

I think you're hitting on the issue with the QSCs.  I think the EQ in the default voicing is just not so great, but doesn't mean there's something wrong.  Before I tear the shootout setup down I'll try again with some of the other voicings.  The QSCs are definitely well made. (and the damn handle and pole holes are in the right place!)

[TommyRude]

On 3/14/2022 at 11:04 PM, El Lobo said:

I thank you too. I heard more presence in the QSC's. But the differences are subtle and may not be very noticeable in a loud gig situation. Like Hammond Dave, I wonder what's noticeable at loud band volume, and also in a mix from a postage-stamp stage in your local dive bar.  

I did a gig with the EVs, it was fairly loud.  The difference was actually very noticeable to my ears.  The EVs sat better in the mix.  We were in a theatre type setup on an elevated stage. I didn't have both sets of speakers at the gig, but I had my memory of the QSCs kinda locked into my mind.  That was the first gig I used the EVs, happy with the sound, but unhappy with the handles.  That's what prompted me to order the K8s.

 

EDIT:  The "memory" I had of the QSCs was my K10s (I didn't have the K8s yet).  The K10s were not a 1-to-1 match with the K8s, but there were some similarities.  The K10s did not have any "voicing" settings, and out of the box, the K10s sounded better than the K8.2s.  Fast forwarding to the gig - I definitely liked the way the EVs sounded better than the K10s (based on my memory).  Also based on memory, the K10s sounded better than the K8.2s, likely due to the EQ in the default voice settings.  Hopefully that all makes sense! (more to come)

[KuruPrionz]

19 hours ago, Werno said:

Thanks for doing the 'shootout', from someone who's been considering those two speakers as options for practices and live monitoring. One suggestion that would improve things would be to get the Zoom up on a mic stand or anywhere other than sitting on the keyboard, where it's picking up all the mechanical noise it generates. I'm listening on earbuds, which doesn't help the situation.

 

1000 times THIS!!!

I listened in mono on a single Mackie MR5 studio monitor and the sound of your fingers thumping the keys was transmitted by vibration directly to the Zoom. 

Buy a cheap tripod at a thrift store, if it has a quick release feature make sure the mounting block is included. A decent one should be under $10 and sometimes you win, I found a heavy duty Manfrotto that way. 

It will make a HUGE difference in separating the sound of the speakers from the sound of you thumping the keyboards. 😇

[Theo Verelst]

A PA traditional style probably has a prefered volume, same could be for the powered speakers.

 

T

[TommyRude]

hey guys - did an update - still some problems with the audio - clipping a bit on the EP.  But the main takeaway was changing the voicings on the QSCs - much better than the default.  Conclusion / decision - I'm going to keep both sets... bwaahaha!  I'll find a use for the xtra set, vocal monitors or something.  Thanks everyone for your thoughts on the thread!

 

[zxcvbnm098]

Tommy, again huge thanks for taking the time to do this not once, but again with revisions!

 

Yes, the QSC's do sound a bit better this time around, although both really do sound great. Money not withstanding, I'd go for the QSC's.

[Theo Verelst]

I just listened on my mid sized powered monitors, and I was wondering: what's an indication of the sound volume, like 80dB, 100 dB or less (or more ?)? I mean a rough indication like with a phone.

 

Interesting though.

 

T

[TommyRude]

5 hours ago, Theo Verelst said:

I just listened on my mid sized powered monitors, and I was wondering: what's an indication of the sound volume, like 80dB, 100 dB or less (or more ?)? I mean a rough indication like with a phone.

 

Interesting though.

 

T

I don't know Theo.  To my ears it was medium volume.  I've torn down the setup, but I can try again - assuming there are sound volume apps for my phone available?  In a gig I would definitely be pushing it harder.  The last gig I did with the EVs I was pushing it fairly hard, and they sounded good, without distortion.

[Reezekeys]

Tommy, put the mic away, you've gone above and beyond here. They're both good-sounding speakers – enjoy making music with them! 

 

It might be interesting for you to do a number of gigs with each pair, then come back and let us know any new insights you gain from real-world experience with them.

 

It does look like you have to spend time with the QSC's eq settings to get the best out of them. My old K8s only have a few switches, one of them can set it on what they call "vocal boost." These switches can inadvertently change position when you put on & remove the slipcover. That's happened a few times to me, and I can tell you that the "vocal boost" setting makes my digital piano sound like complete crap!

[HammondDave]

Would like to have heard an organ with some volume to judge, but with these three sounds at this low volume level, they sound identical to me.  Again, what happens when you reach high volume levels?  In my experience, this is where the QSC's fall apart.

 

And price?