The Spotify Wars: Tied Neil Young 1, Joe Rogan 1 at Half-Time

[KuruPrionz]

15 minutes ago, Anderton said:

Ever get the sinking feeling that maybe Spotify will end up treating music the way MTV ended up treating music? It currently airs 1 celebrity show, 1 news show, 2 competitions, 4 variety shows, 17 "reality" shows, and...3 music shows.

From what I've read, Spotify's crowd demographic tends to be on the older side. 

The kids are busy checking out Tik Tok until something newer comes along. 

Yes, it will become the "MTV" of streaming. 

I have a friend in her late 20's who sends me links to YouTube music she thinks is interesting. Most of it is, I'm a "once and done" kind of listener at this point and that goes for just about all music from all eras. I like to play music more than listen to it and I don't do either of them enough any more. 

That could change come spring.

[Greg Mein]

8 hours ago, Anderton said:

I don't listen to his podcasts

 

Advising younger people not to get the vaccine because they're "young and fit" was doing a serious disservice. 

 

 

 

Your first statement is accurate and your second one proves it.

 

I listened to the entire interview with Dr. Malone this afternoon while working in the garage and he never advised anyone to do anything. I have access to all his podcasts now, can you specify where he does that?

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, Greg Mein said:

Your first statement is accurate and your second one proves it.

 

I listened to the entire interview with Dr. Malone this afternoon while working in the garage and he never advised anyone to do anything. I have access to all his podcasts now, can you specify where he does that?

 

Of course I can, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. Despite all obstacles, I try my best to live in a non-fiction world It was his podcast from April 23, 2021.

 

Read this, originally published in The Hill, which is not exactly a left-leaning publication. I trust it because they have a history of correcting any factual errors they publish. But you don't have to trust The Hill, the article embeds a tweet with the section of Rogan's podcast where he says what's quoted in the article, which is what I referenced.

 

[pinkfloydcramer]

On 1/30/2022 at 11:40 AM, Anderton said:

I think I need to change the thread title to Neil Young 1, Rogan 1. Seems like the score might be tied up at the moment.

Spotify is Spoti"fried", stick a fork in it because it's done. Not only the artists mentioned so far, but Randy Watson, Doyle Hargraves AND Buddy Jackson are yanking their music from what is left of Spotify's rancid carcass. Not only according to rumors but per FB.

 

So on 2nd thought, don't even bother with the fork! The good guys WIN.

[Anderton]

I think you make excellent points, that aren't too different from what I've been saying. I decided a while ago that the main reason I play music is for me. If other people want to hear it, so much the better. But whether 10 people hear my music or 10,000,000, it's not going to change that I make music for myself.

 

However, I might have come up with an answer for the streaming issue. It's an entirely different model of how music can be distributed, and how musicians can get compensation. It won't solve the problem of excessive supply and finite demand, but I think it can give musicians who are truly serious about their careers (not someone in a bedroom hoping that lightning will strike) a leg up compared to the way things work now.

 

Unfortunately I can't talk about it, because I just submitted the concept for my column in Mix magazine. So I really shouldn't give any details until it's published, which I assume will be sometime in March. I think you'll find it interesting, especially when the other shoe drops in the next month's column.

[nursers]

30 minutes ago, Anderton said:

I think you make excellent points, that aren't too different from what I've been saying. I decided a while ago that the main reason I play music is for me. If other people want to hear it, so much the better. But whether 10 people hear my music or 10,000,000, it's not going to change that I make music for myself.

 

However, I might have come up with an answer for the streaming issue. It's an entirely different model of how music can be distributed, and how musicians can get compensation. It won't solve the problem of excessive supply and finite demand, but I think it can give musicians who are truly serious about their careers (not someone in a bedroom hoping that lightning will strike) a leg up compared to the way things work now.

 

Unfortunately I can't talk about it, because I just submitted the concept for my column in Mix magazine. So I really shouldn't give any details until it's published, which I assume will be sometime in March. I think you'll find it interesting, especially when the other shoe drops in the next month's column.

 

Just for clarity the piece was written by Rachel Hurley, which I saw on Facebook

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I have nothing to add other than this, from Facebook...

 

 

I'll show myself out now.

[ElmerJFudd]

Can someone explain what this is on the new forum software - using safari on iOS, where someone’s entire post is grayed out from reading and all I can see if the link they’ve added to the post? 

[Notes_Norton]

For the majority of history, musicians have made a living entertaining live in front of live audiences.

 

That's what I have been doing for most of my life. Making money via recordings is only a recent blip in history, and I'm afraid it ain't what it used to be.

 

I've done some side-man recordings, sax for hire, but that was just for extra cash. I've had my feet on the stage and the sax in my mouth from here to China and back.

 

Making a living by streaming, if you don't already have star status, is against the odds. You may as well play the lottery.

 

Neil, Joni, and Gram can leave Spotify, and their losses won't make a noticeable difference in their earnings. Spotify's stock is down, so I guess the point has been made. I'm not going to try to predict the eventual outcome, and I'm only mildly interested in it.

 

Here is what is important to me. I have a full gigging calendar for the rest of our tourist season, all outdoor gigs. I'm doing what I love, playing live music to a live audience, talking between songs, telling lame jokes, making bad puns, and basically goofing off with them. The audience members are my friends and extended family. We party together, and I make an adequate living at it. My life is happy, and basically stress-free. To me, that's making a success in music.

 

Insights and incites by Notes ♫

[Anderton]

2 hours ago, Notes_Norton said:

For the majority of history, musicians have made a living entertaining live in front of live audiences.

 

Around 35,000 years, to be exact

 

The live experience is something you can't get from recordings. The new model I alluded to is heavily dependent on supporting a band's live component.

 

But I would go so far as to say that streaming concerts have a future. With people having big-screen TVs, better sound systems, and with concert tickets being expensive and localized, I would welcome paying to see a live concert when it would be impractical for me to travel to it.

 

Live concerts are also the best possible promotion for recordings. If you like what you saw, you'd want a recording of it.

[KuruPrionz]

11 hours ago, Dr Nursers said:

An interesting perspective ( via Facebook )

 

This is probably a bad idea.

Okay. I’m going to say my piece about Spotify. I realize that some people won’t like what I have to say, so here goes nothing.

Spotify and streaming are not the problem. Too much music is.

While I disagree that there can be too much music, I do agree that value is tied to availability and there is more music available to the public than ever before. 

Which brings the price down. So it goes.

The band I was in until recently and may re-join was polled in second place for Best Entertainer by a local publication. 

We made a few bucks but not enough to live on. We didn't even sell swag and the tip jar was cash only. 

I think you do need to sell swag and have a Venmo account clearly posted to supplement the meager pay bands get for live music. 

[Greg Mein]

12 hours ago, Anderton said:

 

Of course I can, otherwise I wouldn't have said it. Despite all obstacles, I try my best to live in a non-fiction world It was his podcast from April 23, 2021.

 

 

I'll go ahead and concede this is true but I'm a little confused, this is from over nine months ago and I was under the impression that Neil Young's "issues" arose from more recent episodes like the one I listened to yesterday.

 In any case I support Joe Rogan's right to say what he believes, the same as I do for anyone, and further add that it's obviously not something that at least several million people didn't already believe or agree with. After all, and all this time, the debate still rages due to the fact that we don't all fall lockstep into compliance with everything handed down from "authority figures", media outlets, or those either have identified as "experts".

 

As a musician and recording enthusiast I enjoy this forum although it can sometimes be difficult to keep it, and the members, within that context. With that in mind I'll probably not share anymore thoughts on this thread/topic.

 

 

[Anderton]

1 hour ago, Greg Mein said:

I'll go ahead and concede this is true but I'm a little confused, this is from over nine months ago and I was under the impression that Neil Young's "issues" arose from more recent episodes like the one I listened to yesterday.

 In any case I support Joe Rogan's right to say what he believes, the same as I do for anyone, and further add that it's obviously not something that at least several million people didn't already believe or agree with. After all, and all this time, the debate still rages due to the fact that we don't all fall lockstep into compliance with everything handed down from "authority figures", media outlets, or those either have identified as "experts".

 

As a musician and recording enthusiast I enjoy this forum although it can sometimes be difficult to keep it, and the members, within that context. With that in mind I'll probably not share anymore thoughts on this thread/topic.

 

Well, I can't speak to Neil Young's timing. I brought it up as an example of something that was indeed misinformation. Many young, healthy people have died of covid. Phil Valentine, who was my favorite talk show host on the right (and with whom I conversed about DAWs, he used Cubase for his podcasts), believed that because he was healthy, he wouldn't have any problems. I'm not sure if he believed that because of Rogan or not; Rogan wasn't the only one saying that. In any event, before Phil died, his last public statement was that he was wrong, and he implored people to get the vaccine so they wouldn't have to go through what he, his family, and his listeners had to go through.

 

I agree Joe Rogan can say what he wants, and equally, others can ding him for misinformation. Yes, "it's obviously not something that at least several million people didn't already believe or agree with," but they don't have a megaphone that reaches 11 million people. I believe that influential public figures have a responsibility to double down on accuracy.

 

When it comes to covid no one has all the answers, that's obvious. Over time, though, some points become indisputable and that's what forms a body of knowledge. Personally, I'm more inclined to trust career immunologists than stand-up comedians, but that's not to say either one can't be right or wrong on occasion.  

 

As to "with that in mind I'll probably not share anymore thoughts on this thread/topic," your thoughts are welcome. If we don't all listen to each other, challenge each other, and consider viewpoints outside our comfort zone, we're doomed. All I ask is that statements of fact be backed up with references. You challenged me about a specific piece of misinformation I referenced, I provided a link to the podcast. Now you know more about Joe Rogan than you did before. That doesn't have to change your opinion, but it gives you more data so you can understand why some people say he gives misinformation. Any reputable source of information corrects their mistakes. I don't know if he does or not, but if he does, that would raise my opinion of him. If he doesn't, that would lower my opinion.

 

Look, we're all muddling our way through this thing. The biggest problem is that if we make the wrong decision, it could be fatal. Of course, it could be fatal if you get into a car and smash into a train; everything has a risk/reward factor. What's nasty about covid is the sheer number of people it has killed. Covid was the third leading cause of death in 2020, behind cancer and heart disease, and I believe it was for 2021 as well. There were several months where it was the #1 cause of death. The only time it dipped significantly was when vaccines became available, and I doubt that's coincidence. So covid is not something that can be taken lightly, nor should it be politicized. It's not a political issue, it's a health and societal issue.

 

FWIW, for two years running, covid has been the leading cause of death among active-duty police. I don't find it odd that police departments want to mandate vaccines. Asking your employees not to die when they don't have to makes sense to me. For whatever reason, it doesn't to others. But my opinion is based on verified statistics from the National Law Enforcement Memorial and Museum, not what I heard from an immunologist, the media, or a comedian.

 

I question everything. That's why my opinions rarely align with specific agendas.

 

 

[KuruPrionz]

Today's news. More artists are supporting Neil.

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/david-crosby-stephen-stills-ask-184005819.html

[KuruPrionz]

Maybe this aspect was covered farther down, maybe not. If you were an Artist with a substantial catalog on Spotify that provided income, Spotify obviously also has income from that catalog. If your sense of what is right and wrong in the world was offended by Spotify's offer to Joe Rogan, you helped pay for that. Nothing you can do about what's already happened but you can stop paying for it, by pulling your catalog. 

 

That is a choice made by the Artist in question, they can make a public statement to provide clarity, otherwise it's none of anybody else's business but theirs. 

[Anderton]

Please note: I split Dr. Nursers post off into its own thread, because it's sufficiently different from the Joe Rogan/Neil Young thing I thought it merited discussion on its own merits.

 

And now we return to the controversy du jour...

[Notes_Norton]

Freedom of speech is great, but that doesn't mean you can spew obvious lies and state them as fact. You can say, "In my opinion" or "I believe that" but if you state that you know that some famous person is having sex with a horse every night, and he/she isn't, you should be sued for libel and hushed.

 

Freedom of speech has its limits. The speaker has responsibilities.

 

I've never listened to Joe's podcast, so I can't comment in it, but I've heard other lies on both sides of the divide that overstepped the boundaries of free speech.

 

Notes ♫

[Anderton]

On 2/3/2022 at 8:47 AM, Notes_Norton said:

Freedom of speech has its limits. The speaker has responsibilities.

 

I've never listened to Joe's podcast, so I can't comment in it, but I've heard other lies on both sides of the divide that overstepped the boundaries of free speech.

 

It's not cut-and-dried. I'm very much a fan of freedom of speech, because give an idiot enough rope, and he'll hang himself. Years ago, there was going to be a march of neo-Nazis in Skokie, IL, which they ended up doing in Chicago. Everyone got all bent out of shape and wanted to keep it from happening. The ACLU defended their right to do so as a matter of free speech...and even though a Jewish lawyer was one of the most adamant people in favor of not curtailing the march, it split the ranks. It was a huge deal and people were up in arms.

 

On the day of the march, about 20 neo-Nazis showed up...and 2,000 counter-protesters. The neo-Nazi "show of strength and unity" was a total flop, and it became obvious they were just a fringe bunch of idiots, and not to be taken seriously.

 

Had they been prevented from doing their march, they would probably have retained the fear-inducing status they had before the march, with the added layer of being able to say they were martyrs, suppressed, etc. 

 

Sometimes it's better just to let situations play out. I'm glad Spotify didn't toss Rogan off, I'm glad musicians applied pressure, I'm glad people who wanted to show support for the musicians canceled their Spotify subscriptions, I'm glad others started subscribing to Spotify (let the market decide, and all that), but most importantly, I'm glad it started a dialog where people debated the consequences of actions, and the responsibility of public figures. I'm a big fan of open discussions. 

[The Real MC]

I just thought I'd drop in to say that members have emailed me privately to say they have left the community because they are tired of politically laced discussions like covid and cancel culture young-vs-rogan threads.  People have had enough of the politics and scaremongers and elitist dispositions, and they're voting with their feet.  Spare me the gaslighting and shaming tactics - I'm just the messenger so I will not respond.   Deleting or editing this message will constitute censorship and a failure to acknowledge declining membership of KC, and must cite the offending group rule to show cause for such action.

[Anderton]

46 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

I just thought I'd drop in to say that members have emailed me privately to say they have left the community because they are tired of politically laced discussions like covid and cancel culture young-vs-rogan threads.  People have had enough of the politics and scaremongers and elitist dispositions, and they're voting with their feet.  Spare me the gaslighting and shaming tactics - I'm just the messenger so I will not respond.   Deleting or editing this message will constitute censorship and a failure to acknowledge declining membership of KC, and must cite the offending group rule to show cause for such action.

 

Interestingly, only three threads (one of which I closed) out of the hundreds of threads in my forum fit that description. The current two threads have gotten the most clicks, responses, views, and participation by far. To me, voting with your feet simply means not participating in those two threads. 

 

Look at the threads on the first page. I started most of them, because I'm constantly posting new threads that are related solely to music or music technology. For whatever reason, people don't participate anywhere near as much in those. So it's not for a lack of trying on my part to grow participation along musical lines. Maybe I'm choosing the wrong topics, in which case I would hope others would start better topics. 

 

The two threads that could be considered politically laced both intersect with music (in the case of covid, live performance and in the case of Rogan, Spotify in general and musicians who choose whether or not to support the platform). In the covid thread, frankly, I think it's encouraging to see the posts from people who have managed to play out in spite of it, and what was needed in order to do that. I always appreciate those who make posts that steer the threads back in the right direction.

 

Also interestingly, I have deleted and/or edited far more posts that could be considered left-leaning. I've only deleted one right-leaning post, and that's because it was purely political. I'd be happy to delete more on both sides, but then I'm sure I'd be accused of censorship or cancel culture or whatever. And I'd bet those people would leave anyway because they felt they couldn't say what they wanted to say.

 

Finally, private emails to individuals who don't moderate this forum won't offset the huge response I see to those two threads. Right now, the only indication I have regarding the community's interest is the degree of participation in those two threads, which have orders of magnitude more participation than the hundreds of other threads. Starting a topic about whether having two threads of this nature is enough to cause people not to participate in the hundreds of other threads would be more helpful. There could even be a poll conducted on it.

 

As I said in my previous post, I'm a big fan of open discussions. Come to think of it, maybe I should split this off into its own thread, and see what people think.

[Anderton]

I did move the previous post to a different thread. Please respond there. One that thread gets some comments, I'll delete the previous two posts. Or the entire thread, if that's the sense of the community, and not just a few individuals.

[Doerfler]

2 hours ago, Anderton said:

Finally, private emails to individuals who don't moderate this forum won't offset the huge response I see to those two threads.

Agree with this completely. Why not PM any moderator if not the main one? No offence to The Real MC, but why should he be involved anyway?

[KuruPrionz]

Another shift of opinion and some selective deletions by Spotify. Still a "watch and wait" deal, this doesn't appear to be over yet. 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dwayne-rock-johnson-u-turns-115407922.html

[Greg Mein]

Has anyone else tried the Brave browser? It helps block tracking and functions quite well, I'm really liking it. I learned about it from Joe's interview with Dr. Robert Epstein. It's a real eye opener on the ways of Google, big tech, etc..

 

It's easy to see why Joe is so popular. He hosts intelligent, qualified, experienced and interesting guests. He allows them to do the talking on the subjects they specialize in while occasionally asking good/probing/obvious questions. It's no wonder why the legacy media and nanny state types hate him!

 

The interview with Carrot Top is especially light hearted and fun.

[Notes_Norton]

I've used the Brave browser, it's pretty good, but some pages just don't work on it. Even though it's Chrome based, it much more private. I have a few different browsers, all privacy focused, and some sites work better on one or the other. Firefox is also pretty private especially if you use privacy guard add-ons, and it's not Chrome based. But Chrome is so mainstream now, that some sites don't work well unless the browser is built on the Chrome core.

 

I also use StartPage as my primary search engine, it gives Google results without the Google snooping.

 

At first, I didn't care which ad agencies were sending me ads. You know, you get ads anyway, targeted or not. Then I bought some active ear attenuators from Etymotic. They lowered the volume to my ears when the volume was up, and between songs they were not attenuated, so I can hear audience comments.

 

They required hearing-aid batteries, and being a thrifty type, I got tired of paying the prices paid at a local store for them, so I went on-line and did a lot of searching, reviewing, and investigating specs (ma-hours, pollution content after disposal, etc.). I guess 'hearing aid batteries' is a good trigger phrase for Google, because I started getting ads for hearing ads, adult diapers, easy in-out bathtubs, and a host of other geriatric supplies. If that's my future, I don't want to know about it until it's time

 

So I tried to thin those ads out by searching for guitars, saxophones, and other musical tools, but I guess those people don't pay as much for adwords, because I didn't get flooded with music ads. Eventually, the geriatric ads subsided, and by using more privacy based Internet tools, the ads are back to being random, which is a lot more entertaining.

 

Notes ♫