YC88 questions - especially compared to PC4

[Stokely]

Hello,

 

The Kurzweil pc4 I ordered seems to be on perpetual backorder, and I'm considering options IF--big IF I am able to and do cancel this order. Guitar Center has nothing, other than three earlier dates that came and went.

Another BIG IF is that they gave me a discount on it, so I'd want the same discount on anything else

 

With that as the backdrop, I'm considering other options. None are an exact drop-in for the PC4, but I own a MODX7 which pretty much is. I'm intending on keeping it, for now at least. I do both one-keyboard and two-keyboard gigs, and the thought was that the PC4 would take over the one-keyboard gig duties. But not set in stone. I also prefer when I have two keyboards and they can cover for each other to a large degree.

 

One option would be to go more organ-centric and get an SK Pro. I was pleasantly surprised at learning it had more ensemble filtering and control than I would have thought. And of course the mono synth.

 

Another is the YC88 and that is where I have some questions. The videos and posts I can find usually concentrate on the piano and organ sections. I'm aware that the leslie isn't ideal but I'm guessing it is no "worse" than the PC4 engine overall for rock tunes. And I have B-3x on ipad coming from the MODX (and could also be used from the YC88 as a bonus). I just don't rely on the ipad 100%, it's a nice-to-have-if-it-works and I'm more comfortable with that idea.

 

It mentions FM--is this an FM engine, or some sampled FM instruments? The reason I ask is that you can do some very nice FM pads and leads.

 

Secondly, there's very little about poly or mono synth sounds, or the editability of the ones there. I saw one vid where the demoist adjusted the attack, that was about it.

 

Just as I'm using the ipad for organ, I have Model 15, Zeeon and other synths and so that is a possible bonus with a keyboard with a built-in interface. But ideally enough sounds to at least get by would be nice.

---

 

I'm aware the PC4 is a workstation, but frankly I use workstations because of their range of sounds and ability to do splits and layers, not because they can sequence or be serious master controllers. Splits and layer wise--I try to keep these as minimal as possible. I don't need a bazillion of them, typically three zones is the most I end up with and that isn't common. I'm also aware it's a real synth with vast, but I'm actually finding the MODX is more capable than I thought in that area now that I'm giving it a chance. But if the YC88 was to be the only keyboard...open question whether it's synth capabilities would work. We don't do THAT many synth-heavy tunes, I'm guessing the hardest to do with the YC88 would be poly synth stuff like Loverboy and other 80s material.

 

I realize the YC88 is quite a bit heavier than the PC4. This I don't mind EXCEPT for a bit of a worry with my spider pro stand for 2-keyboard gigs. Specs say it should be ok but 41 pounds and 88 keys is more iffy than the PC4 on that stand. For single keyboard use I have the beefy omega pro.

 

On the plus side, no wall wart and probably an action that I'll like better for both gig and home piano playing.

 

Edit: one more question: The ability to be able to route sounds to different outputs on the PC4 was something I thought could be handy. Mainly if I wanted to try a pedal for certain sounds. I looked in the manual but as far as I could tell the YC88's other set of outputs only mirror the main ones. Any confirmation on that?

[AnotherScott]

It mentions FM--is this an FM engine, or some sampled FM instruments? The reason I ask is that you can do some very nice FM pads and leads.

It's full FM, not samples... but there is no FM editing. Just the 29 presets. (Kinda like how most people ended up using the DX7, just picking from among the presets. ;-) )

 

Secondly, there's very little about poly or mono synth sounds, or the editability of the ones there. I saw one vid where the demoist adjusted the attack, that was about it.

Very minimal editablity. A one-knob function that lets you choose from various envelope shapes, a one-knob function that lets you choose from various filter settings.

 

as I could tell the YC88's other set of outputs only mirror the main ones. Any confirmation on that?

That's my understanding as well. Nothing in the manual or menu options indicates anything to the contrary (no way to direct something to one set of outs but not the other).

[Stokely]

Thanks.

 

That's really odd, an FM engine with no capability for editing, even off the board (?) Does it let you load say DX7 presets (I wouldn't think so).

 

Sounds like the YC88 would not work well for pure synth--unless you got lucky with the presets as-is--or supplemented with an ipad. At least they do make that pretty easy. And again, only an issue if that is my only keyboard at a gig.

 

The single set of outputs is really only a thing if I wanted to use pedals--a vent/lester, or maybe something else. I don't have a definite plan for it.

 

I have a mild case of covid--argh, given to me by my kid--once I'm over it I'll see about heading out and finding, and trying, these keyboards.

[AnotherScott]

That's really odd, an FM engine with no capability for editing, even off the board (?) Does it let you load say DX7 presets (I wouldn't think so).

Yeah, no loading of DX7 presets, and no offline editor for anything.

[Outkaster]

It isn't heavy at all. It's really a great board.

[CyberGene]

I"ve been researching the YC61 and found the following video that has awesome sounds unlike any other demo I"ve seen. Maybe it"s a creative use of the effects along with the FM-organ synth (it"s like an additive stuff as far as I understand) but it shows how advanced and lush this board can be. It would also apply to YC88.

 

 

You may need to scroll a bit to find the more esoteric sounds but even the basic piano and Rhodes demos are good.

[EVC]

That's really odd, an FM engine with no capability for editing, even off the board (?) Does it let you load say DX7 presets (I wouldn't think so).

Yeah, no loading of DX7 presets, and no offline editor for anything.

 

Wild guess: planned for future software upgrades.

[AnotherScott]

no loading of DX7 presets, and no offline editor for anything.

 

Wild guess: planned for future software upgrades.

I doubt it. This board isn't aimed at people looking for that level of sound customization. I think they'd say that's what MODX/Montage is for (which has the fully editable FM and AWM2 engines, though obviously not the organ functionality). There's also no obvious place to put a whole bunch of new sounds. I mean, let's say you wanted to load a bunch of DX7 sounds into the "Synth" category. Well, that category already has 59 sounds in it, and the two digit display means the max it can hold is 99 (assuming the underlying software doesn't have some other limit, like 64). So there's not a lot of "room" for sound expansion. Especially if they still need to keep some slots available for future factory sound expansions as they have done before, so opening those slots up for the user to use for his own purposes could have complications there as well. But who knows, I could be surprised...

[Stokely]

I resolved a long time ago to never buy anything with future expectations that something would change, or be added. Not just with music gear but it definitely applies. Korg Grandstage...now these Yamahas...my wish would be that all the non-Nords of the world would try to one-up Nord and their library. But no takers.

 

The sk pro checks off a bunch of boxes if I want to leave my ipad at home...the main "cost" being playing piano on either a waterfall keyboard (stealing it from the organ also) or the super-light MODX7 keys. I have gotten somewhat used to it but it's far from ideal. Then again it's not like I'm playing solo piano gigs.

 

Scott, I watched a video you had posted on another forum featuring Woody showing the issues with the YC leslie. (Try saying that five times quickly) Yeah, that's not great. However, looking at it as a backup to B-3X--which only rarely has an issue--it's not so bad.

 

I probably couldn't go wrong with either a YC88 or SK PRO, or the PC4 either if the @$^$# thing ever got to me. I used to gig with a PC3 so I know it can do quite well. Either just makes a bit of shifts in strengths of the rig. I go round and round on the single-board thing is the main problem. I sing a bunch and prefer the look of the Omega stand with one keyboard over being hidden by a column. Plus of course it's a bit quicker and easier to set up.

[AnotherScott]

I probably couldn't go wrong with either a YC88 or SK PRO, or the PC4 either if the @$^$# thing ever got to me. I used to gig with a PC3 so I know it can do quite well. Either just makes a bit of shifts in strengths of the rig. I go round and round on the single-board thing is the main problem. I sing a bunch and prefer the look of the Omega stand with one keyboard over being hidden by a column. Plus of course it's a bit quicker and easier to set up.

If you're willing to consider the YC88 for your single-board gigs at its 41 lbs, maybe also look at the 39 lb Fantom 7? Though stepping up in price yet again...

[drawback]

Stokely, have you read any reviews on the PC4? S.O.S. is apt in this case!

 

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kurzweil-pc4

[Stokely]

Certainly I did (including that article). Other than the wall wart--and MAYBE the action, that's an unknown--the PC4 is a great all-rounder. I know this already because I did probably 300 gigs with my pc361, bought used...it has a couple issues or I'd still be using it (it's my home controller, but even there it's giving me a problem with random pitch wheel messages, I have to disable pitch in Logic since I rarely use it anyway.)

 

I already have a nice rolling gator case left over from another 88-key keyboard where a buyer didn't need it, that can be a forgotten cost when buying a board.

 

Most likely I'm going to wait it out, within reason. If it goes into many more months (it's been almost 1.5 now with no future date given) then I'll have to bail. I may try to get another store to match my deal on the PC4. GC gave me the best initial deal so that's why I went with them, to be sure though it was backordered pretty much everywhere.

 

--

 

re: Fantom

 

Yes I have considered it, with their update of the organ that made it a contender. The weighted one certainly is too heavy and too humongous, my buddy gigs one and I wouldn't trust it on my Spider Pro I use for two keyboards. The price is the real sticky point. That's getting up to where I might consider a Nord compact. Lower than 2500 for a good all-rounder was what made me pull the trigger on this. I know with the Fantom I'm paying--like the Montage--at least partially for a lot of features I won't ever use, namely the workstation ones. Plus--I don't get the impression it would really be a big upgrade from the PC4, other than build quality and to me that is mostly offset by weight convenience. If I'm mistaken about that please correct me! I haven't played one other than briefly in a music store, and I wasn't seriously considering it. And of course I'd probably need a new case unless it's the size of an 88, so there's another 200 bucks.

 

Anyway I appreciate all the viewpoints. I may not come to a rapid decision in yet another round of rig hemming and hawing but all good info!

[dbhoosier]

Everything above about the YC88 is accurate. I have one and love it, but I really only use it for piano and EPs (which are FANTASTIC). Absolutely love the piano sounds plus the variants of Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clav, etc. For organ and synth, I use by Nord Stage 3 Compact, but I still use the YC organ on a few songs, as it has some really great crunchy drive on the organ engine that I haven't been able to replicate on the Nord (although the Stage has a love more drive/crunch that the Electro). There are some synth presets that are pretty fun and I enjoy using them, but they are just samples and you can't tweak ADR, etc. The USB and MIDI connectivity would work well for you (although I think we have separately discussed iPad MIDI connectivity...). I also really like the the YC88 has balanced stereo XLR line outs, so no need for DI boxes. IMHO, the main reason to get the YC88 is for the great action and piano/EP sounds and ideally leverage a second smaller/lighter board for organ/synth.

[Stokely]

That pretty much matches what I saw as strengths for it. I would be less likely to use it as the only keyboard, unless I felt really good about ipad for synths (and maybe organ). Maybe

[jeffincltnc]

Has anybody played the 73 key version with BHS action? I've never seen one out in the wild.

[Mighty Motif Max]

...

 

re: Fantom

 

Yes I have considered it, with their update of the organ that made it a contender. The weighted one certainly is too heavy and too humongous, my buddy gigs one and I wouldn't trust it on my Spider Pro I use for two keyboards. The price is the real sticky point. That's getting up to where I might consider a Nord compact. Lower than 2500 for a good all-rounder was what made me pull the trigger on this. I know with the Fantom I'm paying--like the Montage--at least partially for a lot of features I won't ever use, namely the workstation ones. Plus--I don't get the impression it would really be a big upgrade from the PC4, other than build quality and to me that is mostly offset by weight convenience. If I'm mistaken about that please correct me! I haven't played one other than briefly in a music store, and I wasn't seriously considering it. And of course I'd probably need a new case unless it's the size of an 88, so there's another 200 bucks.

...

 

I own both a PC4 (88) and Fantom 7. I've only had the Fantom for a short period of time, but I'd say their strengths lie in entirely different areas (with the exception of their organ engines both being very good). The PC4 has an FM engine, albeit it's still part of the VAST system (but you already had a PC3 so I'm guessing you're fine with the Kurz way of programming).

 

I see the PC4's strengths in electric pianos, orchestral sounds, organs, and "vintage" keys-type sounds, particularly with the Purgatory Creek sounds loaded in. Pianos are pretty good, though it depends on what type of sound you like. I rate them slightly stronger than the Fantom (my main little gripe is that, just like the PC3, there are a few notes that one can tell were sample stretched as they just sound "off" in a way that's hard to describe). On the PC3 I think it was the C and G above middle C that I usually noticed. On the PC4 it's the D above middle C in particular (on the 9' patches - the 7' patches are pretty good). The PC4 is more of a "vintage" flavored keyboard in many ways sound-wise; it's basically a PC3 with improved pianos/EP's and some accessory sounds to me (I also own a PC376). It's a great board though for sure. Especially since you're already a Kurzweil user...it's been more difficult coming from near-exclusively using Yamaha gear for me, particularly for patch programming. That likely doesn't apply for you! The UI is much better than the PC3 UI, in my opinion.

 

The Fantom's strengths seem to lie in non-FM synths of all kinds, pop/rock pianos (they're a little on the thinner/less full-sounding side which is probably great in a mix), and organs, as well as its user interface. It has a really "clean, modern" sound to it that I think puts it in a sweet spot for pop music. Its wurli, clavinet, electric guitar, and CP70/80 patches are not good, so steer clear if you use those a lot. Other sounds are decent, just not up to Yamaha spec (everything else) or Kurz spec for orchestral stuff or EP's. Kind of like the Kronos it's not a perfect instrument in terms of some users having issues with it freezing etc...which I have had happen a few times as it gets stuck loading samples into the pads on startup (which is factory-set). The fix seems to be to NOT have any USB devices or controllers connected when it powers up...for now. It appears to be a software issue, one that Roland will hopefully correct. Granted even my Motif XF8 froze a few times, but that was from a connected midi keyboard sending gibberish due to power fluctuations. Some folks had issues with the Krome SD card corrupting...etc etc etc. It seems like there are some problems with every model one way or another.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Oh, forgot to mention. Neither the PC4 nor the Fantom will connect right to your iPad and play audio over USB...the PC4 doesn't do audio over USB at all, and the Fantom isn't class-compliant.

[stoken6]

Has anybody played the 73 key version with BHS action? I've never seen one out in the wild.

I've played one - it's absolutely fine. The 88 action is better, but obvs heavier. Neither are ideal for "organ-forward" one-keyboard gigs of course - that's where the SK Pro is strong.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Thanks, great info. I was a bit curious about the 73 version as well. Perfect size but I had no idea if I'd like the BHS, while I was positive I'd like the action in the 88 version.

 

And yeah, I count as a "con" for the PC4 the fact that the ipad would be midi-only. Not too much of one, as I want a rig I can play with or without the ipad. I didn't realize that about the Fantom though, that is a bit disappointing as I thought the FA series was class compliant (?) Maybe not, I didn't care for the FAs overall so I didn't really pursue it.

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, class compliance for MIDI over USB is a separate issue from audio over USB.