Back on the topic of digital piano amplification in stereo

[Al Quinn]

I didn't compare to playing mono through a single TT08A but I have, in the past, played mono through one TT08A and didn't like it because it lacks any spaciousness. Of course if there was wave interference using one TT08A would have fixed that issue. The only times I've used one TT08A for mono has been on gigs where I'm going through FOH. But in that situation I've put it on the floor in a traditional floor monitor position.

 

No, I didn't think to angle them out on the poles because that setup would require schleping poles but I can see now that would have been an interesting thing to check out. When I placed them next to each other they were on the same keyboard bench that you see the KP610S on. I was shooting for an apples to apples physical setup comparison, was surprised at the disappointing audio, and reverted to the pole setup you see in the video because I've used that setup on gigs and love it.

[AnotherScott]

When I placed them next to each other they were on the same keyboard bench that you see the KP610S on. I was shooting for an apples to apples physical setup comparison

Ah, I see. It is interesting that they sounded so much worse that way. Certainly as presented in your video, I much prefer the sound of the TT08As.

[ElmerJFudd]

Sheesh. A pair of RCF"s - would have to do a lot of gigs to make that money back. But I see a second hand set on Reverb. Not easy to find around here to try out.

[Reezekeys]

I had the TT08A's placed next to each other, angled out a little, and they didn't sound very good. I don't the technical reason for this because intuitively it seemed to make sense. Clearly there was some sort of sound wave interference going on.

I've had the exact same experience with my QSCs, in the few times severe space constraints forced me to set them up close to each other (in some case, directly next to each other but angled out like you had your speakers). I believe what was happening was the dreaded "summing to mono" of stereo samples that results in boxy-sounding phase cancellation - only this time, it's happening acoustically, not electrically!

[AnotherScott]

I've had the exact same experience with my QSCs, in the few times severe space constraints forced me to set them up close to each other (in some case, directly next to each other but angled out like you had your speakers). I believe what was happening was the dreaded "summing to mono" of stereo samples that results in boxy-sounding phase cancellation - only this time, it's happening acoustically, not electrically!

Interesting. I've only set up that way once, and didn't notice any problem, only the benefit of no longer getting the sensation that the sound was coming out of a box. Though I was only comparing to how it sounded with a single speaker, not to how it would have sounded with the two speakers a distance apart. It could be the luck of the piano sound I used. Because if your theory is right, if you use a piano that doesn't have the "electrical" sum-to-mono problem to begin with, then I suppose it shouldn't be an issue "acoustically" either...?

[ElmerJFudd]

Great information here and sharing of experiences with the hunt for setups and solutions that are pleasing to our own ears. There"s a lot to consider when the goal is sharing piano music in the best light possible while working with electronics in the absence of a well maintained acoustic instrument.

[Reezekeys]

I've had the exact same experience with my QSCs, in the few times severe space constraints forced me to set them up close to each other (in some case, directly next to each other but angled out like you had your speakers). I believe what was happening was the dreaded "summing to mono" of stereo samples that results in boxy-sounding phase cancellation - only this time, it's happening acoustically, not electrically!

Interesting. I've only set up that way once, and didn't notice any problem, only the benefit of no longer getting the sensation that the sound was coming out of a box. Though I was only comparing to how it sounded with a single speaker, not to how it would have sounded with the two speakers a distance apart. It could be the luck of the piano sound I used. Because if your theory is right, if you use a piano that doesn't have the "electrical" sum-to-mono problem to begin with, then I suppose it shouldn't be an issue "acoustically" either...?

I'll admit right off the bat that this is speculation, but I would say that yes, a stereo piano that sounds OK summed to mono would sound better than my piano if the L&R speakers were close to or next to each other. While a lot of the direct sound from both speakers will mix together acoustically and (if my theory is right!) produce phase-cancelling artifacts right away, the "troughs" and "peaks" of various frequencies' waveforms will null & reinforce at differing points depending on where you are in relation to the two speakers, and room reflections may still play a role. Ethan Winer (of RealTraps) talks about how, in a studio, changing your head position by a few inches can land you in & out of these peaks & troughs and change what you hear. I definitely noticed it the few times I had to set my two speakers up next to each other â my piano sounded almost exactly like it does when I hear it in mono with L&R summed together.

[AnotherScott]

I definitely noticed it the few times I had to set my two speakers up next to each other â my piano sounded almost exactly like it does when I hear it in mono with L&R summed together.

I wonder if you could ameliorate that also by just increasing the angle between the two speakers. For example, if you turn each one 45 degress off center (so they are 90 degrees apart from each other), and the speaker have the common dispersion of 90 degrees (which doesn't mean none beyond that, but it does mean significant falloff), then you should greatly reduce the direct interaction of the soundwaves between the two speakers, and that might create a lot less of this problem than if you just had the speakers slightly tilted, say 15 degrees off center and away from each other. I think I did have my two speakers very substantially angled away from each other when I tried it. Certainly at least 30 degrees (for 60 degree total difference) if not 45, and very possible closer to the latter. So if yours and Al's were not angled as far from each other, that could also possibly explain what I remember as better results.

[ElmerJFudd]

I suppose there is just a wide variety of customers in the digital piano market. If buying to play with headphones - then yes - sample libraries in stereo sound great. Models with speakers angled to the player"s perspective - makes sense for home practice and when placing the instrument against a wall/facing the wall. I think there"s a valid argument for developers to offer more options for sample libraries in mono as well as more ambient perspective libraries, not only close mic"d versions.

 

I play the Yamaha N3 often - it"s multi speaker system (facing up, facing down) with the piano lid is pretty effective. But it definitely sounds better the closer you get. It can be boxy at a distance also, but the room comes into play with all instruments - acoustic or not.

[El Lobo]

I did this comparison awhile back and thought it might be helpful to mention that for my first crack at it I had the TT08A's placed next to each other, angled out a little, and they didn't sound very good. I don't the technical reason for this because intuitively it seemed to make sense. Clearly there was some sort of sound wave interference going on. But there was no question that their sound was compromised when setup right next to each other. They actually didn't compare well to the KP610S when setup close together so I put them up on their poles and the sound came to life.

I have 2 powered speakers that I set up on either side of me. I used to put them on small low stands tilted back slightly. I recently got 2 mini stands â see another thread about stands â and I put the 2 speakers on those poles at about waist height (I play standing) and I had the same experience of the sound coming to life. I'm a convert.

[Reezekeys]

I wonder if you could ameliorate that also by just increasing the angle between the two speakers.

It's been a while but I think I tried that and it didn't work. My theory (again with the speculation!) is that at a certain point the angle between the two speakers is large enough that the L & R sound has fewer pathways to your L & R ears to create the stereo image. It's basically two mono sound sources pointing in different directions. If I run into a situation where I need to set up the speakers close together, I'll experiment to see if there's an angle I can point them that might give me more of the spacious non-boxy sound I normally hear.

[AnotherScott]

It's basically two mono sound sources pointing in different directions

True. But I think even sending a mono signal to two speakers angled away from each other will get rid of the "sound coming out of a single box" phenomenon. At least if you're indoors, where room reflections will play a part. The idea of two speakers next to each other but angled away from each other is to get spread and eliminate the sound-in-a-box thing, it's not for stereo imaging. Though I think it would also add depth to things like Leslie and autopan effects, because the effects are so extreme that you'd get some sense of motion even out of that pair of speakers that aren't placed to yield a true stereo image.

[ElmerJFudd]

Tricky business... psychoacoustics, phasing, polarity, reflections, frequency interfering patterns, too small a sweet spot. Brings one around to wanting high quality mono sample libraries once again.

[elif]

Tricky business... psychoacoustics, phasing, polarity, reflections, frequency interfering patterns, too small a sweet spot. Brings one around to wanting high quality mono sample libraries once again.

Very tricky. What do you want your listening exprerience to be?

• as an audience member sitting 15 ft from a GP?
  
• as if I am sitting at the bench of a grand, keys in hand?
  
• like a well recorded piano through great stereo speakers?
  
• ?
  

And yet, you are stuck with whatever the manufacturer decided to implement as the *best* presentation. I suspect it's a significant problem for epiano designers also.

[Al Quinn]

Except for the pianist I don"t see how the sweet spot comes into play. Beyond my own needs the appeal of stereo for me is that it projects a spacious, complex, pleasing sound somewhat similar to an acoustic piano. It"s nice for me, my bandmates, and the audience in a small venue where I"m not going through the PA.

[Reezekeys]

I'm with Al here. IMO the "sweet spot" concept is overblown when it comes to an audience at a typical small club. You're never gonna get 100% of a crowd hearing everything perfectly. Not that they'd notice anyway. When there's no PA, I do my best to cover as many bases as I can with how my sound gets out there - but the priority list starts with me, then my bandmates, then the audience. It's not that I have little regard to how the audience hears me - I do. Most of the time I can place and aim my speakers to do this triple-duty without a problem. I've gone out into the room to hear someone sitting in on my gear, and once you're over 10 feet away there's no distinct "stereoness" anyway - and I don't care, as long as the piano sounds good (which imnsh opinion it does!) and its level is in balance with everything else coming off the stage. The latter is admittedly harder for me to pull off since I have to judge things from where I'm playing, but I figure I'll have it down by the time I'm doing gigs for my nursing home friends!

[drawback]

So then, if the sound of two K2"s etc placed close together at an angle sounds so weird, why does Motion Sound sound so good? The box?

[Al Quinn]

I suspect it"s the same type of engineering expertise that results in great sound from TV sound bars, boom boxes, and single enclosure home stereo products (e.g., some Bose products come to mind).

[AnotherScott]

So then, if the sound of two K2"s etc placed close together at an angle sounds so weird, why does Motion Sound sound so good? The box?

Good question. If this is really a pattern, one difference I can see is that there is a difference in the dispersion/throw characterstics of a horn vs. a "flat" speaker.

[cphollis]

The mono fans have an important point: unless you avoid phase interference, a stereo signal played through two speakers can sound much worse than a mono one. When you get multiple speakers aligned coherently, that's a line array.

 

From a keys perspective, sounding good in mono is a lot easier than sounding good in stereo. Even when playing in stereo, I keep the L/R panning on the moderate side, just enough to add some stereo presence without being an obvious stereo effect. The sound person and bandmates says it sounds good to their ears that way, so not a mono signal but not full-throated stereo either.

 

As I mentioned above, I'll gladly go mono for smaller, acoustic-style gigs where radiating a pleasing sound to all corners of the room is the goal. If someone wants a stereo experience, sit closer to the musicians so you can hear them directly. The Bose stick is sort an audio campfire people gather around.

 

The counterexamples are products designed for a stereo signal: headphones, home speakers, the CPSv3 and so on.

[AnotherScott]

PIcking up from something just posted in another thread, this looks like it could be very relevant to people following this one...

 

 

The bass bottom is under 16 lbs. The two stereo satellites don't necessarily have to be put up on tripods, depending on the spread and coverage you're looking for. Note that the stereo inputs are XLR, though.

 

More info at https://www.markbass.it/product/ergo-system-1s-121/

[Nathanael_I]

On 12/16/2021 at 10:21 AM, ElmerJFudd said:

Ok, solo piano, duo, trio, quartet. The goal being to reproduce stereo piano sample libraries in the room instead of an acoustic grand. Loud enough for large room, but not needed for anything like a rock or blues band (where let"s say the PA is just for vocals).

 

What have you used and what does acoustic piano justice?

I use Fulcrum Acoustics FA-22ACs. They are exquisite. And expensive relative to the models listed. And no longer made with amps in the back - they only make the passive versions now. They fully do laptop piano sample libraries justice. They are as good as my Genelec studio monitors. Just very, very much potentially louder. They will reproduce acoustic piano volume accurately, and importantly, have outstanding transient response. This later bit is very important to really deliver what the samples hold.  It is easy to discern changes in reverb settings on these speakers, so differences in samples are easily audible. They have exceptionally smooth and even off-axis response.  They reproduce everything you feed them. You cannot hide on them. Average things sound…. Average. Excellent things sound excellent.  There are other equivalent choices from other professional PA companies, but all are $4-8k per box, which I do realize is PA company pricing, not MI pricing. None of these brands are at Guitar Center. They are 62 lbs each. Most people here don’t want to carry them. They are super light for pro PA gear. But heavy compared to a lot of MI gear. 

 

I mostly use them as PA mains and monitor with in-ears. I don’t believe in mono pianos. Who wants to listen to a sad, small mono piano?  Not me. So I don’t.  Good piano libraries have mic positions that don’t make a “20’ wide” piano. They do still sound spacious but the sound doesn’t move left to right as one plays up the keyboard. 
 

When I’m running sound I always plan for stereo piano and synths. If they give me mono, it’s what I send out to the PA.  I’ve heard great players both ways.

[skipeb3]

I'm with Reezekeys on the priority thing. I've been playing stereo for years...first with a couple Barbetta's and now with a couple powered monitor cabs. 

Sounds really good to me, and I play better for it. Twice the schlep but twice the sound. Maybe more, actually. Worth every bit of extra schleppage, IMHO.

[ElmerJFudd]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

PIcking up from something just posted in another thread, this looks like it could be very relevant to people following this one...

 

 

The bass bottom is under 16 lbs. The two stereo satellites don't necessarily have to be put up on tripods, depending on the spread and coverage you're looking for. Note that the stereo inputs are XLR, though.

 

More info at https://www.markbass.it/product/ergo-system-1s-121/

This type of setup is interesting.

A few thoughts on the product.  
 

A) the yellow cones aren’t great for when you want gear to go unnoticed.  grills/foam would be a good idea.  
 

B) I have to read the documentation… I hope it has an adjustable crossover point and separate volume control for the floor speaker vs. poled speakers.  
 

 

[16251]

12 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

PIcking up from something just posted in another thread, this looks like it could be very relevant to people following this one...

 

 

The bass bottom is under 16 lbs. The two stereo satellites don't necessarily have to be put up on tripods, depending on the spread and coverage you're looking for. Note that the stereo inputs are XLR, though.

 

More info at https://www.markbass.it/product/ergo-system-1s-121/

Once upon a time I bought a HK AUDIO Lucas Nano. It seemed like a cool idea, not a robust as the ERGO. Besides the Nano not being very good, one of the things I realized with a system like this is amount of setup, chords, stands, etc.

[drawback]

4 minutes ago, 16251 said:

Once upon a time I bought a HK AUDIO Lucas Nano. It seemed like a cool idea, not a robust as the ERGO. Besides the Nano not being very good, one of the things I realized with a system like this is amount of setup, chords, stands, etc.

Same experience here, about 6 months ago. I returned it within a day or two of receiving it.

[AnotherScott]

It's the satellite placement that killed the Nano for me (even without hearing it). As soon as you have to setup and place and run wires to speakers on tripods, it's not a quick self-contained stereo setup anymore, and doesn't save much (any?) effort compared to just running a stereo pair to begin with. Yes, you could put the satellites right on top of the HK, but only in a single, fixed stack configuration. You couldn't angle them differently, you couldn't place them side by side, etc. So it was essentially still basically mono. I guess the best compromise would be to put one satellite on the bass unit, and place the other on a separate short tripod, but that's still enough nuisance to not make it worth it to me.

[drawback]

47 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

It's the satellite placement that killed the Nano for me (even without hearing it). As soon as you have to setup and place and run wires to speakers on tripods, it's not a quick self-contained stereo setup anymore, and doesn't save much (any?) effort compared to just running a stereo pair to begin with. Yes, you could put the satellites right on top of the HK, but only in a single, fixed stack configuration. You couldn't angle them differently, you couldn't place them side by side, etc. So it was essentially still basically mono. I guess the best compromise would be to put one satellite on the bass unit, and place the other on a separate short tripod, but that's still enough nuisance to not make it worth it to me.

 

You've nailed it.

 

On another note, I just happened on a local Craigslist ad for my long-gone Roland SA-300. IIRC you still have yours? 

[AnotherScott]

13 minutes ago, drawback said:

On another note, I just happened on a local Craigslist ad for my long-gone Roland SA-300. IIRC you still have yours? 

Yeah, I still have two of them, and they have served me well... but I'm probably going to sell them. I haven't used them since getting the Bose L1 Pro8 earlier this year. It's a trade-off... the Bose is strictly mono, and I need a separate small mixer. But it's even less to carry, and has enough coverage where I can even use the single Bose in situations where I used two Rolands (i.e. not just for keys, but for entire PA for a small/quiet ensemble), and it sounds better.

[D. Gauss]

piano on those pre 1958 Blue Note jazz records sure sounds good to me...and they're mono. The mono version of Kind of Blues sounds great, too.