Back on the topic of digital piano amplification in stereo

[ElmerJFudd]

Ok, solo piano, duo, trio, quartet. The goal being to reproduce stereo piano sample libraries in the room instead of an acoustic grand. Loud enough for large room, but not needed for anything like a rock or blues band (where let"s say the PA is just for vocals).

 

Very few all in one stereo solutions. I"m looking at Motion Sound 408S - though hard to track one down at the moment to try.

 

Pairs,

 

EV ZXa1

Yamaha DBR10

JBLEON610 - there"s also a newer 710

 

I have an EV ELX200 on loan, I'll share some feedback.

 

What have you used and what does acoustic piano justice?

[Al Quinn]

Last jazz quartet gig I did was with my CP4 / Motion Sound 610S rig. I was very pleased with the sound. I expect the 408S sounds very good (because it's the 610S's slightly smaller brother) but haven't heard one myself.

 

There's more info here KP408S Thread

[ElmerJFudd]

Interesting, 610S or 500S is going to give better low end. The 610S is not significantly heavier to carry than the 408S.

 

I'd love to A/B them side by side, 408S and 610S.

[ProfD]

Stereo amplification is an ongoing connundrum.

 

The musician is rarely sitting in the sweet spot between two speakers in order to hear stereo especially if it's the house PA system.

 

Same goes for most folks sitting in the audience but they're less concerned about hearing a piano in stereo anyway.

 

I haven't used either one but I *think* the Motion Sound 408S or 610S amps would be perfect for the KB player who wants to hear their DP in stereo.

 

The audience should feel the love...hear the KB amp too for the type of gig mentioned above.

[El Lobo]

I've been using 2 QSC K8's (the old ones). I have a JBL Eon One compact that I really like. I use it with one of the QSC's on the other side. I'm thinking of getting another JBL Eon One compact and using 2 of them. Lightweight (just under 18 lbs.), rechargeable battery powered, good sound. The Motion Sound 408s is 40 lbs. That's too much for these old bones.

[Groove On]

I have a pair of QSC k8.2s - my favorite for acoustic piano; though I might eventually move up to k10.2s for my singers. I've also used the DBR10s and DXR10s which I like a lot. I feel the Yamahas are nicely tuned for acoustic instrument sounds (piano, guitar, voice, sax, violin etc.).

 

I used to have illusions of running in stereo, but mono makes more sense for my smaller 2-3 person gigs. It's easier to get even room coverage and it's a better match for your singer/saxophonist/guitar. Plus many times, I need to use one speaker as a monitor.

[BbAltered]

Stereo amplification is an ongoing connundrum.

 

The musician is rarely sitting in the sweet spot between two speakers in order to hear stereo especially if it's the house PA system.

 

Same goes for most folks sitting in the audience but they're less concerned about hearing a piano in stereo anyway.

 

 

This conundrum is made worse by the convention of recording stereo piano samples from the players' perspective. This is sort of the universal standard for stereo piano samples in pretty much every digital piano, and puts more of the low notes in the left channel, and more of the high notes in the right channel. If you then run this stereo image thru a stereo FOH system, the audience will hear the piano low notes on the left side of the venue, and more of the high notes on the right side of the venue. This of course is very unnatural and not at all how a listener hears/perceives a naked piano in a room or hall.

 

Some digital keyboards have an option to use samples recorded from an audience perspective. This is a more realistic piano sound when amplified thru a stereo FOH system. But this kind of sampling is available on a pretty limited number of digital keyboards.

 

So I suggest it is important for those considering stereo amplification for their digital pianos to think about how "stereo" is done by their digital instrument, and how the audience will hear the stereo piano samples when amplified.

[ElmerJFudd]

In the scenario I"m describing - chamber music, jazz duo, solo, etc. I feel like the goal isn"t even stereo but replication of acoustic instruments in a room with favorable acoustics. The sound from the digital piano should emanate in all directions, 360 degrees.

 

This is a difficult task for traditional loud speakers. Even if you used 3 in a triangle, 4 in a square, 6, 8, etc. I guess I"m describing an array. Perhaps an opportunity to develop/market for a creative company like motion sound. I also wonder if ribbon speakers, or other amplification methods are better options for this scenario than a stereo pair of traditional cone loud speaker enclosures.

 

Yes - inclusions of audience perspective sample libraries is a good point.

 

Has anyone ever run their digital piano through a set of Magnepan LRS?

[AnotherScott]

I'm thinking of getting another JBL Eon One compact and using 2 of them. Lightweight (just under 18 lbs.), rechargeable battery powered, good sound.

If you don't need the battery power or the built-in mixer, an EV ZXa1 at 19 lbs sounds better and goes louder and costs less.

 

 

The musician is rarely sitting in the sweet spot between two speakers in order to hear stereo especially if it's the house PA system.

 

This conundrum is made worse by the convention of recording stereo piano samples from the players' perspective. This is sort of the universal standard for stereo piano samples in pretty much every digital piano, and puts more of the low notes in the left channel, and more of the high notes in the right channel.

Spacestation aside (which is its own thing), I think the KP-408S approach--OR taking a similar approach with a pair of PA speakers, i.e. putting them near each other but angled away from each other--is probably the best way to do stereo. It's not so much about "sweet spot" for very many people at all (maybe just the player), but at least providing a sense of spaciousness, to avoid the sense that all the sound is coming out of a box, which you can get when your speaker is essentially a single point source.

 

As for FOH, the solution could be to make sure your left and right signals are not panned hard left and hard right, but merely somewhat separated. But (a) I'm not sure that solves ths issue of the phasing problems that can sometimes occur when stereo sounds are combined to mono, and (b) if the venue is providing PA and soundperson, you're counting on them doing it the way you want. I'd be curious to hear people's experiences with this approach. THere have been many conversations about stereo here over the years, but off-hand, I don't remember whether this approach is common and whether people have been happy with it.

[ElmerJFudd]

Bose L1 Pro 8 or 16

 

180 degrees using 8 or 16 little speakers standing on a sub. Two of these standing back to back is an interesting idea for 360 degree emanation from a central location.

But would a close mic'd sample library maybe isn't the best program material. An ambient mic'd sample library would be more natural sounding - at a distance of maybe 6 feet from the piano.

[Reezekeys]

I knew I was gonna be wading in here!

Stereo amplification is an ongoing connundrum.

 

The musician is rarely sitting in the sweet spot between two speakers in order to hear stereo especially if it's the house PA system.

 

Same goes for most folks sitting in the audience but they're less concerned about hearing a piano in stereo anyway.

I'm always in the sweet spot on my own local gigs since I set up my two QSCs in back of me on either side, and their relatively wide horizontal dispersion does a great job giving me a balanced stereo image. So "rarely" sure doesn't refer to me, and every keyboard player I've seen running their own stereo rigs with two PPAs (or listening through two wedges) have them set up equidistant on each side. Why would one do it differently, unless there was a space issue on stage?

 

Of course if you're on a stage listening to your stereo piano through the house PA you're probably not going to be in the "sweet spot"... but... why would anybody be monitoring themselves from the house PA? That's for the HOUSE!

This conundrum is made worse by the convention of recording stereo piano samples from the players' perspective. This is sort of the universal standard for stereo piano samples in pretty much every digital piano, and puts more of the low notes in the left channel, and more of the high notes in the right channel.

Not sure what to say here. Yes there is a bias in close-miked piano samples to have the bass end more on the left & the treble more on the right â but to my ears, in all the stereo pianos I've heard, I would never characterize the sound by saying those in the audience on the right side won't hear much of the bass end of the piano, and vice-versa. It's really not like that, in my experience; the "stereo-ness" is the sense of space that hits our ears from a large vibrating sound board in front of us. That's my experience of playing an acoustic piano, and having that sound "boxed" into a single point source is disconcerting and disappointing. Again, imo of course - that's just how I feel.

If you then run this stereo image thru a stereo FOH system, the audience will hear the piano low notes on the left side of the venue, and more of the high notes on the right side of the venue. This of course is very unnatural and not at all how a listener hears/perceives a naked piano in a room or hall.Some digital keyboards have an option to use samples recorded from an audience perspective. This is a more realistic piano sound when amplified thru a stereo FOH system. But this kind of sampling is available on a pretty limited number of digital keyboards.

I'd have to disagree here. Of course the acoustic sound of a piano, on a stage in a hall, is not going to present a distinct "left" and "right" side to someone in the audience. But once you're in a band situation where everything is in the PA - then, effectively everything is as close-miced as the piano samples you're putting through it â so why would you have mics on most or every drum, a mic inches from the bass & guitar cabs, and put that in the PA with audience-perspective piano samples? This makes no sense to me. Also, audience perspective samples have ambience baked in - but you're already projecting the sound of the piano into a space that's imparting its own ambience. Speaking for myself again, I could not do a gig monitoring audience perspective samples as I played! That's just too weird to contemplate. I'm not discounting multiple-perspective piano samples â I see them as useful for recording & post production situations, just not for using on gigs.

So I suggest it is important for those considering stereo amplification for their digital pianos to think about how "stereo" is done by their digital instrument, and how the audience will hear the stereo piano samples when amplified.

Call me a curmudgeon but I say: make the piano sound good (and feel good) to you first. Hope you have a good FOH person and let them do their job. You may not achieve perfection for the folks out there, but chances are 99.99% nobody is gonna notice or care â and chances are good you'll enjoy the gig more. IMHO of course! Just add though, total respect if you're cool with mono and truly don't see it as a compromise "for the audience", or even if you do but are OK with that. If you're happy with your sound that's the end of the discussion!

[AnotherScott]

Bose L1 Pro 8 or 16

 

180 degrees using 8 or 16 little speakers standing on a sub. Two of these standing back to back is an interesting idea for 360 degree emanation from a central location.

 

The Bose L1 Pro interests me as well. While a single one is strictly mono, I suspect the line array approach may still address the typical single-speaker issue of all the sound appearing to emanate from a "point source"/single box. Running even mono to a pair back to back is an interesting idea for specialized application, though realistically, it's extremeley rare that there's ever any audience behind the stage, at least indoors. And outdoors, anyone wandering in the areas behind where you are playing probably doesn't want to hear you anyway. ;-)

 

It would be interesting if Bose had a stereo version of the columns, where the left-oriented drivers played the left signal and the right-oriented drivers played the right signal; and where the on-board mixer supported a combination of mono and stereo inputs. Plugging a clonehweel rotary effect into the stereo input of something like that sounds like it could have a lot of potential.

 

I've also wondered whether a single one of these, placed straight back in the center of the stage (i.e. behind the drummer) could actually serve as a mono PA alternative to running mono to a front pair at either side of the stage (which is what my band most often does). Running one of those would certainly be a lot faster to setup and breakdown than running to left and right mains on tripod stands plus a pair of floor monitors for the band. If in fact it is true that you can really put these things behind you and the singers will hear themselves without their own monitors, without inducing feedback. That seems kinda too good to be true.

[SteinwayB]

To my ears there is no sound on the planet worse than a digital piano in mono. The second worst sound is a digital piano in stereo. If I have a gig or rehearsal where I don't have fantastic stereo amplification I will use a rhodes sound which I find much more satisfying. I like the comment about piano sounding good to the player first; I strongly agree. When I bring my stereo amps (previously tt08a's) and there is insufficient room to set them up on poles on either side of me, I will put them on the floor as wedge monitors aimed at me and let the FOH system handle the rest.

[cphollis]

Maybe a longer conversation, depending on what you're looking to achieve.

 

In smaller settings where we're going for a more intimate vibe, I'll bring a Bose L1 Model 1S or similar for the band. We put behind us, everyone plugs in, and it's a wonderful radiating point source for the room. Of course, I'm using some well-chosen mono APs in this situation. It's nice acoustic-level ear candy everywhere in the venue -- but not meant to get loud.

 

Ratcheting up a bit where the music is louder, I use a pair of K8.2s as others do here and love them in that role. Mine go on short poles, which give me some flexibility as to where they are aimed, etc. Most everyone is happy with theirs. I'm sure the new Bose Pro can get loud, but it wouldn't be my tool of choice.

 

If there is decent FOH and I'm getting a monitor feed, I'll mix that with a split signal from my keyboards, and send that to a pair of IEMs, so no monitors. If I think I'm getting too much stereo separation in the mix, I can adjust it on the outbound mixer. We do this with digital personal mixers in my big stage band.

 

No "right" answer, just different approaches for different situations. Anytime I can leave PA speakers at home is a huge win all-around.

[ElmerJFudd]

Bose L1 Pro 8 or 16

 

180 degrees using 8 or 16 little speakers standing on a sub. Two of these standing back to back is an interesting idea for 360 degree emanation from a central location.

 

The Bose L1 Pro interests me as well. While a single one is strictly mono, I suspect the line array approach may still address the typical single-speaker issue of all the sound appearing to emanate from a "point source"/single box. Running even mono to a pair back to back is an interesting idea for specialized application, though realistically, it's extremeley rare that there's ever any audience behind the stage, at least indoors. And outdoors, anyone wandering in the areas behind where you are playing probably doesn't want to hear you anyway. ;-)

 

It would be interesting if Bose had a stereo version of the columns, where the left-oriented drivers played the left signal and the right-oriented drivers played the right signal; and where the on-board mixer supported a combination of mono and stereo inputs. Plugging a clonehweel rotary effect into the stereo input of something like that sounds like it could have a lot of potential.

 

I've also wondered whether a single one of these, placed straight back in the center of the stage (i.e. behind the drummer) could actually serve as a mono PA alternative to running mono to a front pair at either side of the stage (which is what my band most often does). Running one of those would certainly be a lot faster to setup and breakdown than running to left and right mains on tripod stands plus a pair of floor monitors for the band. If in fact it is true that you can really put these things behind you and the singers will hear themselves without their own monitors, without inducing feedback. That seems kinda too good to be true.

 

You know well how it goes, Scott. There"s no stage, floor level. Could be indoors or outdoors - outdoors a lot more common now. Indoors the size of the of the room varies so much. Might have back to a wall, might be in a corner. Might be on a terrace and need to get sound around a corner. Volume never needs to knock anyone over but be pleasant and most of all emanate/surround for lack of a better word. But I"m sure I"m not alone in the desire to have the digital piano sound as similar to a nice acoustic instrument as possible. A 6' harp in a resonant wood box with the lid at half or full stick.

 

A few of these newer models can have parameters controlled by your phone or iPad at a distance. Playing back a midi file and walking about the room oneself to make the call about what sounds good. That I imagine is a very useful feature.

[AnotherScott]

In smaller settings where we're going for a more intimate vibe, I'll bring a Bose L1 Model 1S or similar for the band. We put behind us, everyone plugs in, and it's a wonderful radiating point source for the room.

Is this a band with a drummer and multiple singers? And you're only using one?

 

It looks like the L1 Pro 8 is pretty close in performance to the L1 Model 1S, even though it has 8 of the small drivers instead of 12... and nicely, it weighs a whole lot less. But its 118 dB peak SPL falls quite a bit short of the max SPL of the EV ZXa1, which is 126 dB for one, 129 dB for a pair. The Pro 16 gets you another 6 dB, but it's noticeably pricier and heavier (though still quite a bit lighter than ths 1S).

 

There"s no stage, floor level.

Yeah, I was using the word "stage" loosely, just to indicate "the space where the band is playing," whether elevated or not.

[cphollis]

@anotherscott -- I use the Bose L1 Model 1S when it's an acoustic-level thing: acoustic guitars, vocalists, maybe hand percussion. I'm doing light keys. Once a drummer shows up (or an electric guitar, etc.) you're off to the next category, e.g. pair of K8.2s or similar.

 

None of those Bose columns really do well when you start adding drums, guitars, etc. and the volume gets up there. I've tried two Model IIs on a whim, and it wasn't worth the schlep.

 

The one technology I wish they could package into a smaller factor are the compact line arrays. I've used them on two products (Bose F1 and RCF EVOX J8). They fill the room much the way the Bose columnar arrays do, but also integrate a traditional 12". Put that small line array in the 8" format, and you've have a winner.

[ElmerJFudd]

@anotherscott -- I use the Bose L1 Model 1S when it's an acoustic-level thing: acoustic guitars, vocalists, maybe hand percussion. I'm doing light keys. Once a drummer shows up (or an electric guitar, etc.) you're off to the next category, e.g. pair of K8.2s or similar.

 

None of those Bose columns really do well when you start adding drums, guitars, etc. and the volume gets up there. I've tried two Model IIs on a whim, and it wasn't worth the schlep.

 

The one technology I wish they could package into a smaller factor are the compact line arrays. I've used them on two products (Bose F1 and RCF EVOX J8). They fill the room much the way the Bose columnar arrays do, but also integrate a traditional 12". Put that small line array in the 8" format, and you've have a winner.

 

But how does it sound at reproducing the timbre of sampled acoustic piano? How is the volume relative to your acoustic at home? And do you feel it"s a good match for un-amplified sax, violin, flute, etc?

[MathOfInsects]

I'm not sure what it's worth, but: every time I show up to a gig and the BL has a Bose column stand, and has me run through it, it's a damp, sloggy trudge through mud and haze all night. The sound is somehow both bright and hollow, and I have never left the gig wanting one as a keys rig.

[AnotherScott]

@anotherscott -- I use the Bose L1 Model 1S when it's an acoustic-level thing: acoustic guitars, vocalists, maybe hand percussion. I'm doing light keys. Once a drummer shows up (or an electric guitar, etc.) you're off to the next category, e.g. pair of K8.2s or similar.

 

None of those Bose columns really do well when you start adding drums, guitars, etc. and the volume gets up there. I've tried two Model IIs on a whim, and it wasn't worth the schlep.

Well, I guess that answers my "too good to be true" query.

 

How is the volume relative to your acoustic at home? And do you feel it"s a good match for un-amplified sax, violin, flute, etc?

The Dexibell P3 with its built-in speakers actually goes louder than my acoustic (grand) at home. I would have no qualms about playing a duet with an un-amplified companion. The only issue is that the speakers face up, which means I'm getting as much volume as the room is. So if I really push it (as I might want to in a larger, crowded room, even if I were only playing solo), it becomes almost painfully loud to me. I discovered this for the first time just this past weekend.

[ElmerJFudd]

Right. I have also experienced this when accompanying using internal speakers. I get asked to turn up by my duo partner and it becomes annoyingly loud to me.

[AnotherScott]

Right. I have also experienced this when accompanying using internal speakers. I get asked to turn up by my duo partner and it becomes annoyingly loud to me.

I wonder if it's worth trying to come up with some kind of foam baffle or something that I could attach, to attenuate the amount of sound coming back in my direction from those upward-facing speakers. Either that, or maybe at least EQ'ing out some of the piercing high end could help, I wish I'd thought of that at the time.

[ElmerJFudd]

Right. I have also experienced this when accompanying using internal speakers. I get asked to turn up by my duo partner and it becomes annoyingly loud to me.

I wonder if it's worth trying to come up with some kind of foam baffle or something that I could attach, to attenuate the amount of sound coming back in my direction from those upward-facing speakers. Either that, or maybe at least EQ'ing out some of the piercing high end could help, I wish I'd thought of that at the time.

 

I"m thinking a reflective surface, like the lid on a piano redirect outward instead of up.

 

I guess you could supplement with one EV. Leave the internal speakers on at a reasonable volume for your highs, and eq the EV to cover your mid to lows. Dragging the amp defeats the purpose of going with internal speakers to an extent. But it might sound rather good.

[Al Quinn]

I think I"d try a reflective material like plexiglass â rather than an absorbent material like foam â to reflect the sound away from you. That way you"ll lose less precious decibels. I"m thinking of those plexiglass picture frames that are angled and have a built in base. You would just need to find the right size and a way to easily secure them to the P3.

[elif]

At the expense of a more fiddly setup, two high-quality monitors on stands would give better audience projection than a KP408 on the floor, and probably better bass response. It would also give you the flexibility to adjust for different venues and different stage setups. Put them on the floor or on stands, spread apart or together splayed 60-90 degrees.

[ElmerJFudd]

Right. Scott has suggested this. If they are wedge style they can be paired close like a Motion Sound. Or if it"s a big room they can be separated and go up.

[AnotherScott]

I"m thinking a reflective surface, like the lid on a piano redirect outward instead of up.

I think I"d try a reflective material like plexiglass â rather than an absorbent material like foam â to reflect the sound away from you. That way you"ll lose less precious decibels. I"m thinking of those plexiglass picture frames that are angled and have a built in base. You would just need to find the right size and a way to easily secure them to the P3.

Yeah, I did briefly think about the foam vs. reflective aspect of the barrier as I was typing. Reflective would put more sound into the room, compared to losing that sound to the foam absorption. My thought was that I didn't think I needed any more sound in the room, and foam would be easier to deal with than something solid (i.e. foam would be light and unbreakable, not something that might need to be more delicately packed or harder to find a safe place for in the piano's carrying bag). But it might be worth what's really only very minimal additional hassle to get a little more sound into the room if I'm in a "borderline" situation.

 

I guess you could supplement with one EV. Leave the internal speakers on at a reasonable volume for your highs, and eq the EV to cover your mid to lows. Dragging the amp defeats the purpose of going with internal speakers to an extent. But it might sound rather good.

Yeah, not gonna do that. ;-) Seriously, I originally only bought the P3 so I wouldn't have to drag a speaker for this stuff. If I was going to connect another speaker anyway, I would have stuck with one of the (lighter) keyboards I already owned. Though as it happens, as a bonus, I actually enjoy playing it more than most (maybe all) other boards I've used for this purpose.

 

The P3 in its carry bag in one hand, lightweight keyboard stand in the other (with the P3's sustain pedal and power cord in the carry bag's pocket) makes for a super-fast one-trip complete setup. And, to your initial post, it's stereo! ;-)

[ElmerJFudd]

I"m thinking a reflective surface, like the lid on a piano redirect outward instead of up.

I think I"d try a reflective material like plexiglass â rather than an absorbent material like foam â to reflect the sound away from you. That way you"ll lose less precious decibels. I"m thinking of those plexiglass picture frames that are angled and have a built in base. You would just need to find the right size and a way to easily secure them to the P3.

Yeah, I did briefly think about the foam vs. reflective aspect of the barrier as I was typing. Reflective would put more sound into the room, compared to losing that sound to the foam absorption. My thought was that I didn't think I needed any more sound in the room, and foam would be easier to deal with than something solid (i.e. foam would be light and unbreakable, not something that might need to be more delicately packed or harder to find a safe place for in the piano's carrying bag). But it might be worth what's really only very minimal additional hassle to get a little more sound into the room if I'm in a "borderline" situation.

 

I guess you could supplement with one EV. Leave the internal speakers on at a reasonable volume for your highs, and eq the EV to cover your mid to lows. Dragging the amp defeats the purpose of going with internal speakers to an extent. But it might sound rather good.

Yeah, not gonna do that. ;-) Seriously, I originally only bought the P3 so I wouldn't have to drag a speaker for this stuff. If I was going to connect another speaker anyway, I would have stuck with one of the (lighter) keyboards I already owned. Though as it happens, as a bonus, I actually enjoy playing it more than most (maybe all) other boards I've used for this purpose.

 

The P3 in its carry bag in one hand, lightweight keyboard stand in the other (with the P3's sustain pedal and power cord in the carry bag's pocket) makes for a super-fast one-trip complete setup. And, to your initial post, it's stereo! ;-)

 

 

[Al Quinn]

Right. Scott has suggested this. If they are wedge style they can be paired close like a Motion Sound. Or if it"s a big room they can be separated and go up.

 

I did this comparison awhile back and thought it might be helpful to mention that for my first crack at it I had the TT08A's placed next to each other, angled out a little, and they didn't sound very good. I don't know the technical reason for this because intuitively it seemed to make sense. Clearly there was some sort of sound wave interference going on. But there was no question that their sound was compromised when setup right next to each other. They actually didn't compare well to the KP610S when setup close together so I put them up on their poles and the sound came to life.

 

[video:youtube]

[AnotherScott]

I did this comparison awhile back and thought it might be helpful to mention that for my first crack at it I had the TT08A's placed next to each other, angled out a little, and they didn't sound very good. don't the technical reason for this because intuitively it seemed to make sense. Clearly there was some sort of sound wave interference going on. But there was no question that their sound was compromised when setup right next to each other. They actually didn't compare well to the KP610S when setup close together so I put them up on their poles and the sound came to life.

Nice demo!

 

Two questions about when the TT08A's place next to each other and angled out didn't sound good...

 

...Did they sound inferior to playing in mono through a single TT08A? Or did they sound better than that, just not as good as the alternate 2-speaker placement?

 

...They came to life when you raised them on poles AND (based on the video) separated them. But had you tried placing them next to each other and angled out while ALSO being on poles? The issue being how much of the superiority of the second setup came from the separation of the two speakers vs. simply being raised off the floor.