Reezekeys Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Hi all, I hope this is a good forum to ask (I usually hang out in the keyboards section). AWB is hitting the road and my keyboarding duties have expanded to include triggering percussion loops we use on a few songs. Previously our drummer used a small pad unit (Akai?) that stored these loop samples but it was very noisy and didn't hold up on the road. I don't want to repeat this scenario so I'm gonna need a small but rugged USB audio interface to add a separate output for these loops (I use my laptop's headphone out for my keyboard sounds). I was hoping to get this done inexpensively since I really only need a separate output - inputs & mic preamps don't matter here. I was looking at the M-Audio M-Track solo at $50 but the doesn't inspire confidence that this would handle the road well. It's plastic and prone to interference, and uses rca jacks for outputs. Spec-wise it's adequate enough, but those two negatives I just mentioned kill the deal for me. I'm looking for a box with metal construction and 1/4" output jacks - but small; as small as possible since it may have to fit in my already-overstuffed backpack. I think I also want it to be class-compliant with MacOS, as the less 3rd-party driver sw I load, the better. To be clear, I already have one of these cheap ($9) USB "sound card" guys you see on Amazon & Ebay. It does what I need right now and I was considering using it on our upcoming tour â but just for a second! Its 1/8" minijack output means I'd need adapters, but the main issue is that I was messing with this at home a while back and my hosting software crashed. This might have been a fluke and not related to my sw, but we have some big gigs coming up (like the London Jazz Festival at Royal Festival Hall) and I can't see chancing things with a no-name $9 piece! This is the one (they're sold by many with different brand names attached): Of course I will be continuing the search but figured I'd post here since I might be overlooking something. Or perhaps someone here already knows about a box that ticks the four boxes I need: small, metal construction, 1/4" outputs, class-compliant, and small. TIA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Do you need a mono 1/4" output, or stereo 1/4" jacks? Or two 1/4" jacks for left and right? The DACport Pro has wicked quality sound, and isn't too big 4.76â³ (L), 2.76â³ (W), 1.42â³) (H). It's plug and play with Mac, Linux, and Windows 10 but if you need to use ASIO, there's an ASIO driver for Windows 10. For you, the deal-breaker or deal-maker might be the balanced XLR outputs. For a mission-critical road application, I think balanced XLRs are probably better than 1/4". It does have a stereo headphone jack, but it's 1/8th-inch. CEntrance makes great products, the build quality is top-notch. I have their Mixerface, and a couple of the 1st-generation DACports that are no longer made. Quote Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 8, 2021 Author Share Posted October 8, 2021 Craig, thanks for this info. Unfortunately I happened to tell our boss that the box I had in mind would cost around $50, to which he said "go ahead, I'll reimburse." I see this DACport Pro is $370. That's a little bit of a difference! I'm sure I can go higher than $50, but $370 is too much of a stretch. The other thing is that we always connected that old Akai pad sampler through DIs, so unbalanced outs are probably fine for us - XLRs might even be less desirable, as we'd then be plugging directly into the house system with no isolation, which a DI with a transformer would provide. My Mac's headphone outs always go to a stereo DI box and we've never had an issue. For size and build quality though, this DACport Pro looks great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Ah, OK. Well for $50 or so, you're probably going to be stuck with 1/8" or RCA jacks jacks. The ART USB Dual Pre is $99, but has dual TRS 1/4" output jacks and is 4.6 x 4.7 x 1.75, which is pretty small. The Arturia Minifuse is also $99 and has two TRS 1/4" output jacks. Not sure what the size it, but it looks pretty small as well. Aside from these, you'd need to go for a Behringer. Quote Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 8, 2021 Author Share Posted October 8, 2021 Thanks, I'll be checking those out! Behringer is a possibility. I know $50 - $100 won't buy me top-shelf stuff. Since I do my own setting up, whatever interface I get will probably stay with me the whole time, so on second thought maybe the M-audio will work though my backpack can get banged around a bit. I appreciate your suggestions! BTW Sweetwater says that new Arturia interface won't be available for a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Motif Max Posted October 8, 2021 Share Posted October 8, 2021 Focusrite Scarlett Solo 2nd gen is $85 from Focusrite themselves, but it's RCA. The 3rd gen version with 1/4" outs is $120, which is also the price point of a 2nd gen 2i2 which does have the 1/4" outs as well. Otherwise, there's the Presonus Audiobox 96 at $99. The only Behringer model I know of around that price that has 1/4" outs is the UMC22. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UMC22--behringer-u-phoria-umc22-usb-audio-interface They also have an $89 UMC202HD. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UMC202HD--behringer-u-phoria-umc202hd-usb-audio-interface M-Audio has the M-Track Duo which has 1/4" outs - not sure on construction however, and it's not class-compliant. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MTrackDuo--m-audio-m-track-duo-usb-audio-interface Quote Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000 Kurzweil: PC3-76| Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT, Kurzweil PC4 (88) Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 Thanks Max. Looks like I might have to bend a little in terms of the boxes I want ticked! The of that Behringer is not very kind, though spec-wise it's fine. I may need to go with RCAs, though that means packing an adapter cable + backup; you just can't count on pro sound companies or typical concert stage sound techs to have rca adapters or cables handy. From my experience, they'll only have 1/4" or XLR cables - that's why I wanted a box with 1/4" outputs. So, more stuff to pack and another, albeit small, detail I leave to chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groove On Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Or perhaps someone here already knows about a box that ticks the four boxes I need: small, metal construction, 1/4" outputs, class-compliant, and small. TIA! These USB DI boxes mostly fit your requirements: small, metal construction and class compliant with MacOS; but XLR out only and USB 1.1 or 2.0 (if you care about that). - Peavey USB-P (PDF) (US$50) - Mackie MDB-USB (US$169) - I use this, solid performance. - Radial USB Pro (US$249) Notes: The Peavey only outputs mic-level (low-z), it needs an external amp to plug into a line-level input. The Mackie and Radial DIs have built-in amps to bring the signal up to line-level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 The MDB-USB is cool but has XLR outs, and he didn't seem too enthused about that. Quote Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 Groove On: THANK YOU! A USB direct box wasn't on my radar at all, and thanks to you I think I might be covered. That $50 Peavey USB-P actually has decent reviews that note its sturdy construction. And, the specs claim the XLR outs are transformer-isolated and "permanently" ground-lifted - I'm not quite sure if that's necessarily a good thing, but my initial objection to having XLR connections was my fear of ground loops or other electrical issues when patching into a venue's system. Transformers mitigate that fear. I also found an ART usb direct box for a few more bucks than the Peavey. Also with transformer-isolated outputs, but it adds a volume control, headphone out, and switchable ground lift. Slightly larger than the Peavey, and I don't really need the headphone out or volume control. I think I'm gonna pull the trigger on that Peavey. Our tour doesn't happen until early November so I'll have time to give it a workout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groove On Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 Before you pull the trigger on the Peavey - please consider this! The Peavey only outputs mic-level (low-z), it will work fine directly into mic inputs, but it will need an amp to plug into a line-level input. I'm not sure if you'll be able to use the computer's volume to get your signal up to line-level. Just something to consider. The Mackie, Radial and Art have built-in amps to bring the signal up to line-level (+4dBu or -10 dBV). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 Thanks for that warning! I think mic level is gonna work fine but I could see where that might be a consideration for some. All the venues we play are set up to take the signals from mics or passive DI boxes â so I think I'll be OK. My laptop's headphone output usually goes to a regular passive DI box, and I've yet to hear about any issues with the sound. I'll probably order this DI from Amazon, which usually makes returns very easy in case it doesn't give me what I need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Motif Max Posted October 9, 2021 Share Posted October 9, 2021 That Peavey is interesting...curious what the latency is like if one were to use it for Mainstage or such. Hmm. Quote Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000 Kurzweil: PC3-76| Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT, Kurzweil PC4 (88) Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 9, 2021 Author Share Posted October 9, 2021 Since it has no inputs, the only possible latency to consider would be playing a VI through it. I need this simply to output some percussion loops so it's a non-issue for me, but I'll check it out when I get it and report! I don't expect to be too surprised, it's almost always the buffer setting in my host that determines this, and lately I've been doing some gigs at a 256 setting without feeling any perceptible lag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 23, 2021 Author Share Posted October 23, 2021 I got this DI box Thursday, and used it at our rehearsal yesterday. It worked fine, so as of now it's a keeper for our upcoming tour. Programming the additional Bidule circuitry I needed to repurpose buttons on my Roland controller for starting & stopping the loops was somewhat of a challenge (they were all spoken for to begin with!), but I'm weird - I have fun figuring that stuff out! I'll make this brief [on review: sorry!] - the levels I get from this box are more than adequate to feed a typical PA or monitor board with a clean signal. The sound, when examined critically, does show some of the characteristics of the cheap transformers used (you're not gonna get Jensens in a $50 box). It's very far from "night and day" though, and listening to it in the intended environment there were zero issues with the sound quality. Will it hold up on the road? Nostradamus I'm not, and it's definitely not Radial-level, but the outside case seems sturdy - it appears to be black anodized aluminum with rubber or rubber-like bumpers around the front & back. Thanks to a website I found, I learned way more than I needed to - pictures of the inside and detailed measurements! Here's the last page of a four-page thread on this little box, including a few posts from your truly, should you have a few minutes to kill. The folks on that forum are not particularly impressed by it â but I think they're looking at the numbers and comparing to more "hi-fi" (and more expensive) gear. For what we need, the performance is more than acceptable. Anyway, HTH anyone needing what these boxes do and looking at what's out there. I'll try to remember to report back here should my impression of its durability turn out to be wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted October 23, 2021 Share Posted October 23, 2021 Thanks for the follow up! The folks on that forum are not particularly impressed by it â but I think they're looking at the numbers and comparing to more "hi-fi" (and more expensive) gear. Indeed, I think anyone expecting an audiophile's dream for $50 isn't being realistic. I thought this guy nailed it pretty well: ...It does exactly what it says in the tin, and for the money there is zero chance you could find anything that does it better. Sure, it isn't something for the audiophile looking for the last drop of performance via balanced output. It never set out to be that product nor does it claim to be. Used for the purpose it is designed for this hits nearly every target. Except for output voltage swing there is little to complain about. A bigger swing was probably going to uncover the limitations in the transformer used and require an upgrade that would have blown the BOM and target market. Done right you would be looking at a few hundred dollars in transformers alone. Talk to the nice people at Lundhal or Jensen. Actually, the comments in the thread make it seem like this is the droid you're looking for - cheap, functional, and capable of holding up on the road. Thanks again for the follow-up Quote Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 23, 2021 Author Share Posted October 23, 2021 Craig, you nailed it, but I admit I was a little concerned reading that thread after I ordered. I thought my audio might be either fuzzy or squashed (or both), given some of those measurements & comments. Not the case at all. For live sound applications, compared to what else is out there, my opinion right now is that this box is a bargain - assuming it can handle being tossed around in my backpack for a few weeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 Craig, you nailed it, but I admit I was a little concerned reading that thread after I ordered. For starters, a S/N ratio greater than -90 dB is about the same as a mechanical pot turned all the way down, so at least that's not an issue. But also notice one person said there was a "massive improvement" upon removing the transformers. As a reality check, some people consider the distortion that transformers add as a feature, not a bug. Think of the console emulator plug-ins that take the effort to emulate that distortion - which recording engineers often want, but audiophiles don't. That low-frequency distortion is great on bass. I have one console emulator that does a good job of emulating the distortion that occurs with transformers and bass. I often push it to get "that sound." I've told this story before, but in case you missed it, I was visiting Wendy Carlos a long time ago when she had that pre-ADAT Akai digital tape multitrack. I couldn't understand why hers sound significantly better than other ones I heard. She attributed it to adding transformers at the ins and out. Now, she probably added quality ones, but transformers are signal processors. Like tape and vinyl, this is an effect some people prefer over the proverbial "straight line with gain." I think for your applications, you made the right choice, as long as it holds up. Given that it's a Peavey, it probably will Quote Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 25, 2021 Author Share Posted October 25, 2021 I re-read almost that whole thread and boy do some of those folks have a bug up their ass about the "low end" marketplace (or what they perceive as such). One guy said "I am not sure this should even be reviewed here"! Some of the posts actually got a little heated with some insulting comments flying around - this about a $50 DAC direct box! A few of them were perfectly reasonable though and saw it for what it is. Still, I have to say I was shocked to see all the measurements, specs, pictures of the inside, etc. These folks take their measurements seriously and I learned a new term, "chasing SINAD." Indeed, transformers' distortion figures rise the lower the freq. For our precious percussion loops it's easy enough to deal with (assuming it's actually a problem!), since I can stick an EQ plugin to roll off everything below 100Hz or so. Considering we have a kick drum and a bassist on stage, I'm guessing that reducing the low end on these loops might improve the full band mix anyway. Your post also gave me an idea to use this Peavey box as an outboard processor for bass tracks! Who needs an expensive plugin to reproduce a saturated audio transformer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KuruPrionz Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 I re-read almost that whole thread and boy do some of those folks have a bug up their ass about the "low end" marketplace (or what they perceive as such). One guy said "I am not sure this should even be reviewed here"! Some of the posts actually got a little heated with some insulting comments flying around - this about a $50 DAC direct box! A few of them were perfectly reasonable though and saw it for what it is. Still, I have to say I was shocked to see all the measurements, specs, pictures of the inside, etc. These folks take their measurements seriously and I learned a new term, "chasing SINAD." Indeed, transformers' distortion figures rise the lower the freq. For our precious percussion loops it's easy enough to deal with (assuming it's actually a problem!), since I can stick an EQ plugin to roll off everything below 100Hz or so. Considering we have a kick drum and a bassist on stage, I'm guessing that reducing the low end on these loops might improve the full band mix anyway. Your post also gave me an idea to use this Peavey box as an outboard processor for bass tracks! Who needs an expensive plugin to reproduce an overloaded audio transformer? I was playing out somewhere and a friend who is also a good guitarist came up to me after a set and said "How do you get all those tones from just that Peavey amp and one delay pedal?" I handed him my pick and held my hands up "That, and these." He was dumbfounded, has an expensive booo-teek guitar amp and over $1,000 on the floor in pedals. Stuff is just stuff and Peavey stuff is usually very reliable. The rest is operator error, or not... Quote It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderton Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 For our precious percussion loops it's easy enough to deal with (assuming it's actually a problem!), since I can stick an EQ plugin to roll off everything below 100Hz or so. Considering we have a kick drum and a bassist on stage, I'm guessing that reducing the low end on these loops might improve the full band mix anyway. Your post also gave me an idea to use this Peavey box as an outboard processor for bass tracks! Who needs an expensive plugin to reproduce a saturated audio transformer? I wouldn't be too hasty to cut off the low end, that saturation could be just what you need to make the low end pop a little more Quote Craig Anderton Educational site: http://www.craiganderton.org Music: http://www.youtube.com/thecraiganderton Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/craig_anderton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reezekeys Posted October 25, 2021 Author Share Posted October 25, 2021 I wouldn't be too hasty to cut off the low end, that saturation could be just what you need to make the low end pop a little more Good point! I'm not cutting anything - if the FOH person has any complaints he'll let me know, otherwise I'll leave things lie. Just meant to say that it's easy enough to do. Some of these percussion loops are very boomy though, so they might sit better in the band mix with a notch around 200Hz. Easy enough for a decent FOH person to do on their board, and I believe our "starting mix" is on a USB stick we bring with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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