New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[Dockeys]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I think Dockeys may have meant too heavy in travel weight, as opposed to too heavy in key feel. I would not have considered the 88 because of travel weight, but I did like the action, at least for pianos... though yes, it was a bit heavy feeling for my taste as well, particularly at the bottom. If it were balanced, so that all the keys were the same as the lighter feeling ones toward the top, I'd have found that preferable. But with the editable velocity parameters in the recent software update, I'm pretty happy with the feel in my YC73.

Sorry yes, I meant the CP88 was physically too heavy for me to gig with and probably wouldn’t fit in the boot of my car whereas the CP73 fits with room to spare. The CP88 action was really nice but that’s the trade off. Anyway back to the Numa to keep the thread on track. 

[napilopez]

11 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Well, I´ve found the Kawai MP11 (not SE) a bit too heavy for my taste and never had a chance to play a VPC-1, a PHA-50 or Yammi NW/NWX action.

Since I moved more than 6 years ago, there´s no pro keyboard shop in my area anymore.

 

It´s great news the GT´s action is great,- but now I´d like to know if the GT action is heavier or lighter than the MP11(SE).

I guess MP11 and MP11SE actions are identical,- no ?

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

Do you mean you found it too heavy to lug around or that the action was too heavy? Because the Grand Feel Action is generally regarded as one of the lighter digital piano actions around. Of course, everyone feels things a bit differently.

 

The TP-400W in the GT (it's worth noting jr's not clear if the action is 100% identical to the version in Dexibell's pianos, by the way) is slightly on the heavier side to my hands, but I think in a good way. Lighter than the Yamaha NW/NWX but I believe similar or a bit heavier than the PHA50. Certainly heavier than my MP11SE, which is just a bit lighter than ideal for me.

 

But the TP-400W also just feels really good in hand to me. There's little lateral movement, and I feel like I have a lot of control throughout the key travel, and to me something about it more closely replicates the behavior of a grand piano throughout the downstroke. Hard to describe. The relatively short pivot length is it's main weakness, so it's harder to play toward the back of the keys but not terribly so.

 

The MP11 and MP11SE should be nearly identical in feel. The only difference is that Kawai has reportedly changed the sliptape that caused sticky key issues over time with early versions of the Grand Feel Action. 

 

[Eli K.]

On 6/12/2022 at 4:15 PM, Dockeys said:

"I ended up with the CP73. CP88 just too heavy for me."

How would you rate the Numa X Piano tp110 action compared to Yamahas CP's? Would you say the Numa x piano tp110 action is a lighter feeling than the cp73? About the same? or feels heavier more like the cp88? 

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, Eli K. said:

How would you rate the Numa X Piano tp110 action compared to Yamahas CP's? Would you say the Numa x piano tp110 action is a lighter feeling than the cp73? About the same? or feels heavier more like the cp88? 

 

Dockeys can give his opinion but I would say that the X Piano TP110 and the CP73 are both lighter hammer actions while the CP88 is a heavier action. The TP110 and CP73 do feel different but I didn't get a chance to A/B them directly. The TP110 overall feels pretty good except maybe for the slightly short key travel towards the back. I can't remember what the CP73 was like in that regard but the CP88 was better than the TP110 at the back of the keys. The minor point against the YC73 is the issue of fast restrikes on the black keys that some people on the internet, including myself, noticed (I found it more noticeable on EPs than APs so it might be more a sound engine issue rather than the action).

[wd8dky]

Has anyone received an estimated delivery date for the 73?  In the US? 

 

Thx

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, napilopez said:

 

Do you mean you found it too heavy to lug around or that the action was too heavy?

 

Yes,- I meant the action.

Thx for the other info,- I see ... I need to play it myself.

According to my friend´s MP11 (not SE) I was surprised keys bounced back when released.

It made repetitions more difficult and the action was significantly more heavy than the action of my old upright piano was.

Not all the acoustic piano actions are heavy,- mine was lighter then most digital piano actions I played.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[napilopez]

26 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

 

Yes,- I meant the action.

Thx for the other info,- I see ... I need to play it myself.

According to my friend´s MP11 (not SE) I was surprised keys bounced back when released.

It made repetitions more difficult and the action was significantly more heavy than the action of my old upright piano was.

Not all the acoustic piano actions are heavy,- mine was lighter then most digital piano actions I played.

 

☺️

 

A.C.

That's interesting -- I actually had a defective MP11 for a few days before the MP11SE, and as far as I could tell the actions felt identical. But as shown in this chart, the MP11SE is on the lighter side for digital actions. To me it feels lighter than most acoustics I've played (granted, only a handful, but still). I've been practicing at a local music school with open rehearsal space and all the pianos there (mostly Steinway O's) feel heavier.

I suppose we all have our own perceptions and experinces!

[Noah DC]

2 hours ago, wd8dky said:

Has anyone received an estimated delivery date for the 73?  In the US? 

 

Thx

For what it’s worth as reference, I preordered a 73 from Sweetwater in January and last week got notice it’s been pushed back to late June/early July. Studiologic has been pushing back the date every two weeks for more or less the entire run. 

[CyberGene]

I found the TP110 to be in between the CP73 and CP88 as a feel. Heavier than BHS but lighter than NW-GH3. However towards the back of the keys it was hard to play. 

[wd8dky]

7 hours ago, Noah DC said:

For what it’s worth as reference, I preordered a 73 from Sweetwater in January and last week got notice it’s been pushed back to late June/early July. Studiologic has been pushing back the date every two weeks for more or less the entire run. 

Thank you! 

[The_Star_Guy]

14 hours ago, wd8dky said:

Has anyone received an estimated delivery date for the 73?  In the US? 

 

Thx

 

Hi!  They are starting to trickle in now.    I had one of the early pre-orders from Sweetwater and I have had my Numa X 73 piano for over two weeks now.    I also currently have one of the Yamaha YC 73 keyboards with balanced hammer action as well so I have been able to compare them side-by-side.   Briefly, both actions are not graded and actual playing weights are surprisingly similar, but not quite identical.   Right now, My Numa X 73 is still running firmware v 1.0.0.1 and I have not yet updated the firmware to v 2.0.0 which was released a few days ago.   I don't really want to publicly compare them further until I update my Numa X firmware, which is also supposed to improve the keyboard scanning as well.    I can say that the build quality between the two is also comparable  (e.g. very good)!   Also, some of the complex percussive 'synthy' layered voices on the Numa X are really nice!  And the clavs are decent as well (better than the Yamaha)!

[The_Star_Guy]

17 hours ago, Eli K. said:

How would you rate the Numa X Piano tp110 action compared to Yamahas CP's? Would you say the Numa x piano tp110 action is a lighter feeling than the cp73? About the same? or feels heavier more like the cp88? 

 

The feel between my Numa X 73 TP110 and my YC 73 balanced hammer actions are quite similar in weight, actually.  I will add more after I update my Numa X 73 to the current firmware version.

[funkyhammond]

4 hours ago, The_Star_Guy said:

And the clavs are decent as well (better than the Yamaha)!

 

Interesting, for me it was the other way around. I found the sampled clavs in the Numa X to be a bit lifeless. The one nice feature was that they included a muted clav sample. Although the choice of clav sounds in the Yamaha CP/YC are limited, I found them more present and dynamic. 

[drawback]

I was able to have hands-on a NuMax 88 briefly yesterday. Much has been said about the action, which I agree feels somewhere in between a Yamaha CP88 and CP73. Not bouncy at all, nice bottoming out without the sponginess of the TP100. I thought the key tops seemed cheap & plasticy, especially when compared with higher end Rolands & Yamahas that were on the floor. Build quality was no surprise, as was the interface and controls. All top-notch. 

 

I expected to be underwhelmed by the APs and overwhelmed by the EPs, but my reaction was opposite. Out of the box, the APs are clean and full and I wouldn't have any problem gigging with them, especially the American. The EPs need quite a bit of editing and given the amount of time and that I was in a retail environment I wasn't about to get into that. The core tones seem thiin and lifeless – reminded me of Pianotec's EPs – so whether or not they could be fashioned into something approaching as good as, say, Guido's – doesn't seem likely to me.

 

I played with a few other tones, especially basses, and couldn't get anything approaching realistic or with any punch.

 

I did compare everything with the much more expensive Yamaha CP88 and everything I found lacking in the NuMax was right there in my face. Better APs, stellar and inventive EPs with a lot more expression & dynamics. A gigger's interface. Superior, polished connection to the sound.

 

I guess this is somewhat of an unfair comparison; there's nothing wrong with the NuMax, but it's not the one for me. I'd rather pay the 30% or whatever more for the CP88 – a better all-around instrument that really does feel more musical and professional.

[Al Coda]

8 hours ago, drawback said:

compared with higher end Rolands & Yamahas

 

Did you,- possibly,- try the Roland RD-88 action and compared to the Numa X 88 Fatar TP110 ?

 

In europe, they are in the same pricerange, but then , there are 3 (RD-88) vs 4 (NUMA X) int./ext. zones/parts and lack of the mixer Numa X offers.

OTOH, tons of SN and Zen sounds in the RD-88 ...

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

[Adan]

10 hours ago, drawback said:

I was able to have hands-on a NuMax 88 briefly yesterday. Much has been said about the action, which I agree feels somewhere in between a Yamaha CP88 and CP73. Not bouncy at all, nice bottoming out without the sponginess of the TP100. I thought the key tops seemed cheap & plasticy, especially when compared with higher end Rolands & Yamahas that were on the floor. Build quality was no surprise, as was the interface and controls. All top-notch. 

 

Thanks for the review, Rod.  I'm encouraged to hear good things about the TP110, as it will inevitably find its way into other keyboards.  If the APs are decent, the Numa X might be useful as a lightweight 73 paired with Neo Soul Keys.

 

The more important question is, did you pick up some new Lululemon in Vancouver?

[drawback]

4 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Did you,- possibly,- try the Roland RD-88 action and compared to the Numa X 88 Fatar TP110 ?

 

In europe, they are in the same pricerange, but then , there are 3 (RD-88) vs 4 (NUMA X) int./ext. zones/parts and lack of the mixer Numa X offers.

OTOH, tons of SN and Zen sounds in the RD-88 ...

 

☺️

 

A.C.

 

I did, though the RD88 wasn’t on, but I recall thinking it’s action weight felt similar to the TP110.

[elmusiloco]

On 6/14/2022 at 3:36 AM, napilopez said:

That's interesting -- I actually had a defective MP11 for a few days before the MP11SE, and as far as I could tell the actions felt identical. But as shown in this chart, the MP11SE is on the lighter side for digital actions...

Thanks napilopez for the chart.

Have anyone noticed that the Yamaha CP73 appears to have heavy keys on the high notes? Sounds to me that this Yamaha keybed is not graded but still very uneven in the wrong way. Can anyone confirm this? It's still in my list of possible pianos, if I can afford it.

Closer to my budget and to the Numa X 73 price is the Korg SV-2 73. I have not seen many comments here. I think it is a closer contender. Any thoughts?

 

So far price/value I find Numa X had to beat. Thanks everyone for all your comments.

[CyberGene]

That chart is often being brought here and on other forums. However it was never mentioned who created it and how he measured the values. It's more than clear the values for downweight are incorrect because they are too high. It has been suggested this is not actual downweight, i.e. the weight needed for the key to slowly move down, but actually the weight needed for the key to generate sound. If that's the case, it's a useless measurement since the weight needed to produce low velocity strike is a complex metric that includes both static weight component and dynamic weight component (inertia) and thus it's impossible to make any conclusions about an action from a combined measurement such as that. Piano technicians know very well that a piano action with high static downweight can actually feel very light when played because it doesn't include counterweights (that add inertia, hence sluggishness) and has light hammers that are easy to throw (low inertia).

 

With that in mind, I think we should stop posting that chart because it's misleading.

[elmusiloco]

Thanks CyberGene for your detailed answer.

I think you are refering to this experiment:

The Definitive Digital Piano Keyboard Touch Experiment

 

It is clear that these cannot replace the actual experience of playing a piano but they are a guide.

I am not a big fun of censuring information. Everything has a value and I thank the guy that posted it. I am sure some other people might find it useful as well as a complement info.

 

Actually I was expecting some CP73 owner to tell me if his keyboard is also not perfectly calibrated and, if so, if this is something that could be perceived or not.

 

[Adan]

4 hours ago, elmusiloco said:

 

Closer to my budget and to the Numa X 73 price is the Korg SV-2 73. I have not seen many comments here. I think it is a closer contender. Any thoughts?

 

 

If what's needed is mainly a keyboard to play pianos or EPs, then the SV2 is a great contender.  The sounds range from good (APs) to great (EPs).  The action is a known quantity that most people can get along with even if few love it.  1-1 knob to function controls.  The SV2 can split but is not designed for that -- it's more of an afterthought.  It's also a fair bit heavier than the Numa or the CP73 and the shape can be non-optimal for stacking.

 

In many ways the SV2 profiles closely to the Crumar Seven and Viscount 70s.  Preferences for key action are subjective blah blah blah, but I would strongly choose Korg's RH action over the Fatar TP100 in the Crumar and Viscount.

 

[CyberGene]

2 hours ago, elmusiloco said:

Thanks CyberGene for your detailed answer.

I think you are refering to this experiment:

The Definitive Digital Piano Keyboard Touch Experiment

 

It is clear that these cannot replace the actual experience of playing a piano but they are a guide.

I am not a big fun of censuring information. Everything has a value and I thank the guy that posted it. I am sure some other people might find it useful as well as a complement info.

 

Actually I was expecting some CP73 owner to tell me if his keyboard is also not perfectly calibrated and, if so, if this is something that could be perceived or not.

 

Ahh, so it was Sweetwater then. But it's still a flawed experiment and the table has misleading columns because downweight is not what they have measured. I'm the biggest opponent of censorship and people who know me will understand since I created a  PianoWorld-like spin-off forum (pianoclack.com) which was made with the specific idea of not banning anybody and allowing any topic and off-topic (it's a fun experiment BTW because initially it seemed like havoc with people arguing about Covid, vaccines, etc. but pretty soon we all realized what other peoples' beliefs are and we moved on to discussing pianos again 🥳), so I completely agree about the harm of censored information and I retract my statement about "we should stop posting that table". Apologies. But I still believe it is very misleading and when posted it should be accompanied by a description of what the experiment is and why the measurements are almost meaningless when just sorted like that, since I see really a lot of people dismissing pianos based on that chart and that's wrong. The best (and I think the only) way for one to judge an action is, unfortunately, still the good old fashioned way of playing it 😀

[AnotherScott]

Yeah, the sweetwater test has significant flaws.

 

The whole "sustained tone" part of the test on digitals is off. If you depress the key sufficiently to pass the sensor that triggers a Note On event, it cannot trigger a Note Off event unless it bounces back above that point. So the "trigger but not sustain" figure is not fixed, but rather related to just how gently you can possibly add that weight. That is, no matter how gently a human hand places a weight on a key, there will be some momentary inertia. The inertia could briefly lower the key by more than the result of the weight itself, enough to trigger the Note On event, and then it would release (bounce) back just a little, possibly enough to turn the Note Off (and as far as I can see, this would be the only way it would be possible to depress the key enough to trigger a note but not sustain it). So the "trigger but not sustain" figures seem meaningless, related more to the "bounciness" of your effort to increase weight as gently as you could, than on any actual amount of weight needed.

 

Even worse, the tester said he tested for enough weight to produce a sound, but by design, some pianos produce a sound at MID Note On velocity 1, and others do not (instead only releasing "virtual dampers" that provide resonances on other notes, to emulate something you can actually do on a piano, if you ever cared to). That doesn't mean the latters' actions are heavier, but they would appear to be so from this test, simply because its minimum MIDI Note On velocity is deigned to be soundless. So as long as you've got a mix of keyboards that do and do not exhibit that behavior, basing the triggering figure on when you can hear the sound is meaningless. They would have had to select a non-piano sound to get around this, but they did not.

[napilopez]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Ahh, so it was Sweetwater then. But it's still a flawed experiment and the table has misleading columns because downweight is not what they have measured. I'm the biggest opponent of censorship and people who know me will understand since I created a  PianoWorld-like spin-off forum (pianoclack.com) which was made with the specific idea of not banning anybody and allowing any topic and off-topic (it's a fun experiment BTW because initially it seemed like havoc with people arguing about Covid, vaccines, etc. but pretty soon we all realized what other peoples' beliefs are and we moved on to discussing pianos again 🥳), so I completely agree about the harm of censored information and I retract my statement about "we should stop posting that table". Apologies. But I still believe it is very misleading and when posted it should be accompanied by a description of what the experiment is and why the measurements are almost meaningless when just sorted like that, since I see really a lot of people dismissing pianos based on that chart and that's wrong. The best (and I think the only) way for one to judge an action is, unfortunately, still the good old fashioned way of playing it 😀

 

You're right that I shouldn't have shared the chart without more context! To be clear, It was actually created on this very forum. It's similar to the sweetwater method, but I believe the data was collected by both and individual user and other contributors from this forum. See this thread:

 

 

 

You will see the data is different from Sweetwater's too, although the rankings are similar.

 

All that being said the MP11SE weighs less than other actions in both tests, and certainly feels like it to my hands.

 

 

[elmusiloco]

On 6/16/2022 at 1:30 PM, Adan said:

If what's needed is mainly a keyboard to play pianos or EPs, then the SV2 is a great contender.  The sounds range from good (APs) to great (EPs).  The action is a known quantity that most people can get along with even if few love it.  1-1 knob to function controls.  The SV2 can split but is not designed for that -- it's more of an afterthought.  It's also a fair bit heavier than the Numa or the CP73 and the shape can be non-optimal for stacking.

 

In many ways the SV2 profiles closely to the Crumar Seven and Viscount 70s.  Preferences for key action are subjective blah blah blah, but I would strongly choose Korg's RH action over the Fatar TP100 in the Crumar and Viscount.

 

Thanks Adan for your input.

I have found this video and the Korg SV2 has a much fuller round sound than the Yamaha CP73 for both APs and EPs and other sounds like organs and strings:

Yamaha CP73 VS Korg SV2 - 73 Stage piano Comparison

 

Most comments there point on this direction as well. But a few said that a thinner sounds might be good when playing in a band or with a singer.

In any case, some manufacturers might put some coloring (eqs, effects, etc) on their sounds and I found that the Numa X appears to be very raw, at least on the demos.

Do you agree on this? Is it possible to get Korg SV2 like fuller sounds on the Numa X with some adjustments like reverb, eq, etc.?

 

[wereMole88]

I just recently got the 73 Numa piano. Great board so far but two things concern me a bit:

 

- the power on button feels fragile. It doesnt click when you press it and I have to push it relarively hard for it to register. Its also the only device in my setup that doesnt automatically switch on when I plug in the main power point.

 

- The 1-axis mod stick (upper one) feels also feels very fragile. The other one (that returns to its central position) feels a bit sturdier. Is this supposed to be so light?

 

Is this how it is supposed to be?

[Al Coda]

these pitchbend- and mod-sticks gave me headscratches already in the Yammi CP and YC models.

I don´t know if the "joy-sticks" in Studiologic SL models are the same,- are they ?

 

A.C.

[HammondDave]

I have always hated those sticks... Didn't it start with ARP who wanted to be different from Moog's excellent pitch mod wheels?  This could be a topic by itself. Who likes them?...  Not me. 

[funkyhammond]

On 6/18/2022 at 5:16 AM, Al Coda said:

these pitchbend- and mod-sticks gave me headscratches already in the Yammi CP and YC models.

I don´t know if the "joy-sticks" in Studiologic SL models are the same,- are they ?

 

The sticks on the CP/YC feel better quality and have a bit more travel than the ones on the Numa X Piano. I don't like any of them but I prefer the ones on the Yammis.

 

[funkyhammond]

  

On 6/17/2022 at 9:48 AM, elmusiloco said:

I have found this video and the Korg SV2 has a much fuller round sound than the Yamaha CP73 for both APs and EPs and other sounds like organs and strings:

Yamaha CP73 VS Korg SV2 - 73 Stage piano Comparison

 

Most comments there point on this direction as well. But a few said that a thinner sounds might be good when playing in a band or with a singer.

In any case, some manufacturers might put some coloring (eqs, effects, etc) on their sounds and I found that the Numa X appears to be very raw, at least on the demos.

Do you agree on this? Is it possible to get Korg SV2 like fuller sounds on the Numa X with some adjustments like reverb, eq, etc.?

 

 

A general principle with audio: it is always easier to subtract than to add. If the frequencies/sound elements are not there to begin with, EQ cannot really fix that. Of course, that's a simplified explanation and sometimes the elements are there but just a bit muted and can be boosted. It depends. The SV1 and 2 does indeed have a nice full warm sound that may be difficult to completely recreate with samples that don't sound that way naturally. I would feel more confident taking a full sound and using EQ to cut frequencies if I need the sound to cut through better live or not interfere with the bass, etc. If that warm sound is important to you, the SV1/2 definitely delivers in my opinion. A friend of mine owns the SV1 88 and I have always enjoyed playing the main Rhodes patch on it at the jams in his garage even with a full band.

 

From what I noticed trying it out in the store, the Yamaha CP probably has a greater diversity of sample sets (APs and EPs) that sound quite different from each other. The Numa X, from what I remember, also has a pretty good variety of APs and EPs, although, as I wrote earlier in this thread, I had some issues with the EPs. If you care about splits, the Korg SV2 is very awkward from what I've read because you have to use a computer to create your split setups and put them into the Favorites buttons. There is no way to create splits on-the-fly using just the keyboard although I think it comes with some split presets.

 

One last thing about the CP73 action. A number of people on the internet have mentioned about the CP/YC73 that there is a bit of an odd response to the black keys if playing repeated notes quickly. I managed to reproduce the problem on a YC73 (same action) floor model at a store. I posted my video of this on the CP/YC thread. Most people don't seem to have noticed the issue so I assume it's not a problem for most people. If you're interested, see my second post on March 18 with the video link:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/181001-yamaha-cp88yc88-vs-the-rest/page/10/#comment-2888978

 

Note that I didn't do a video showing the same thing with APs. The APs didn't sound as obvious as the EPs with the attack getting muted.