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2x10 vs 1x12, tweeter or no tweeter -- especially for studio


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As many of you know, I had to leave not only my Mesa Powerhouse 1x15 bass cabinet behind, when I drove cross country yet again a few weeks ago for a job, but also the Fender Rumble 200 solid state 1x15 combo amp that I bought while working in Durham NC a few months back. I brought the tiny all-tune Mesa Prodigy amp head, hoping I could get a Mesa Subway 1x12 soon, but they aren't even taking back orders until at least FEB 2022.

 

I passed an audition today for a band that expects to be ginning within a few weeks, and also may drive back down to Raleigh NC soon for some recording sessions, so I can't wait any longer, and it has to be great, not a placeholder. A smaller 15" cabinet might suffice, but I'm hoping to stick with either a 1x12 or a 2x10.

 

After much listening and investigation over the past few weeks, I ruled out even the innovative new Genzler designs and settled on Bergantino. I owned the iP112 a number of years ago, but ended up regretting its convenience factor based decision as I felt the DSP wasn't top-notch, introduced some noticeable delay and unwanted compression, and wished I had instead gone with a passive design. But I ended up going the Mesa route after that.

 

I really like how both the 1x12 and 2x10 Bergantino models sound in audio demos, and the few cases where I sort-of could find apples-to-apples comparisons, the difference didn't seem startling as it does for 1x10 vs. 1x12 or even 1x12 vs. 1x15 (not as major overall, but more depth in most 1x15's). A 2x12 starts getting too big and heavy again, so isn't really in the picture.

 

The brand-new just-released tweeter-less Fender-style NXV series sounds a bit better to me than the NXT series, but my Mesa Prodigy amp can easily switch between modern and classic/vintage sounds, so maybe I'd be limiting myself too much bi ditching the tweeter, even though bass signals don't contain much useful info above 5 kHz? The NXV series doesn't go much above 3.5 kHz though, and even though I used the Fender Bassman LTD 4x10 for jazz gigs for a few years now, and it has no tweeter, it doesn't sound good in the studio (though it's "adequate" on a P-Bass or a Hofner 335-style bass, and excellent on lap Steel). So maybe I need a tweeter?

 

I've always thought that multiple 10" cones are best for live vs. studio, as they help the bass cut through, but innovations in design are starting to change how 10" and 12" speakers fit in the bass world, with some 12" designs now achieving what used to require a 15", and dual 10" designs often achieving a balance without the "honk" that is often associated with that cone size.

 

Ideally the choice I make will work well for live shows as well as the studio, but the studio matters more to me, as high profile gigs usually shoot the bass through a DI anyway, and the DI on the mesa Prodigy head is actually way better than any outboard DI I have compared it against -- I even left my recently-purchased upgrade to the Radial JDV (or whatever it's called; the huge one that comes with a handle), behind in CA on this recent move.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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I think totally differently. My speaker is not a part of my instrument. What I hear in my headphones or on my studio speakers is what I want to hear live or recorded. It's easier and more consistent gig to gig, place to place, and in your case, coast to coast. So all I need is a decent PA speaker; flat, full, loud, cheaper. No low B string, so that last half octave isn't an issue. Get to the gig before the drummer so I can place my speaker in the corner....and I'm done.

 

Before lockdown I bought an Alto TS308 for my solo gig. I've used it on several jazz gigs (trio, no drummer) on bass to great results. I've been tempted to buy an Alto TS312 and make that be my all purpose bass-or-solo-act amp. Rock gigs have PA support, so the board gets a direct out and one well powered twelve is enough for stage volume. But if another piece of gear comes into the house, then something else will have to leave the house....so we'll see. Might have to sneak it in the back door when she's not around.

Things are just the way they are, and they're only going to get worse.

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For years I used a 1x12 gigging in NYC. It was great for clubs and bars, and was easy enough to cab or train if needed.

I also used it for recording a couple of times, miced along with a DI, always with a 5 string bass.

 

I like the idea of the speaker being an integral part of the sound, but I was on a budget and also thinking of wear and tear- I went with Avatar, and I was pleasantly surprised. Certainly not audiophile, but more than adequate for the needs of a club musician ime.Good power handling, good sound, solid build, and never had any issues.I guess I'm saying I'd probably go with the 1x12 of your choice, especially if you have FOH and monitors. If you want more stage volume, get the 2x10 or even a 2x12 if you can find one, and stand it on end.

 

Congrats on passing the audition. :)

 

I'm a lot more like I am now than I was when I got here.

 

 

 

 

 

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Hi Paul, I went your route a decade ago, and ultimately that approach did not work for me, once I started evaluating my mixes.

 

I found out a local repair shop apparently has the Mesa Subway 1x12 and 1x15, but they're closed except TUE through FRI, so I'm hoping to check them out this week, then decide on a Bergantino otherwise.

 

Having owned many 1x12's over the years, and reflecting back on the resulting recordings, I am inclined towards a 2x10 or another 1x15. Maybe I'll later sell the Powerhouse 1x15 that I left behind in CA.

 

I leave the stage sound up to the sound person and their preferences, and let go of my ego on that score. As long as the band is happy, and especially if the drummer can hear and feel me well enough.

 

The studio is FAR more important to me, as it's a more controlled and consistent environment, and as I am always aware of downstream implications of choices made (I generally slap an HPF on the lows).

 

The biggest difference for me when not with my chosen gear, such as at yesterday's audition with a borrowed Simmons whatever (e-drums speaker?), is that it affects choice of pick (plastic vs. felt) or fingers.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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Just a curiosity question since I am still experimenting with some toys that are new to me. And I love the sound of a good bass rig coming through an amp, if you place the mic correctly and/or use the DI you can get some great recorded tones.

 

Meanwhile, I've been goofing around with the Tech 21 Sansamp Bass Driver DI and Para Driver DI (both version 2) run in parallel. They both have a parallel input/output so you can run a cord from one to the other with the tone of the bass you are using. They will both accept a mic cable and can be run on phantom power, a 9v battery or a typical pedal power supply.

 

I've been dialing the Bass Driver for a fat, clean bass tone and then rolling all the bass off on the Para Driver and using it to add some high frequency overdrive/distortion tones. A variation on the Tom Petersson, Dug Pinnick, Geddy Lee idea where you keep the low end clean and add some color up higher.

 

There are lots of variations available, I haven't tried any of this in a mix yet. Just exploring so far, there are lots of tones in there. I use EMG Pa active pickups (low impedance and not sensitive to loading) so I could run the parallel output from the second Sansamp DI to a bass amp as well and record several bass tones simultaneously and in phase.

 

Pretty fun. As always, results will vary. Our bassist has played a few of our gigs using just his Bass Driver into the PA and it sounded great coming back from the monitors and out front.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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Good to bring up Tom Peterson, who is one of the reasons I bought a Hagstrom 8-string Bass on sale last year. Too bad I don't have it with me! Interestingly, one of the three highest-recommended guitar techs in the DC area, is a huge Cheap Trick fan.

 

I can't remember if I wrote up my recording sessions from a few weeks back, to communicate all the lessons learned. In spite of being a bassist, I often find it the hardest instrument to mix! This time, I did a LOT of mic positioning and combinations with HOURS of listening in a full mix context, before drawing my conclusions. I didn't have that luxury at previous sessions. But now I'm in a new space, so I'll have to see how well the abstractions of my lessons learned apply to a different size/shape room.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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Good to bring up Tom Peterson, who is one of the reasons I bought a Hagstrom 8-string Bass on sale last year. Too bad I don't have it with me! Interestingly, one of the three highest-recommended guitar techs in the DC area, is a huge Cheap Trick fan.

 

I can't remember if I wrote up my recording sessions from a few weeks back, to communicate all the lessons learned. In spite of being a bassist, I often find it the hardest instrument to mix! This time, I did a LOT of mic positioning and combinations with HOURS of listening in a full mix context, before drawing my conclusions. I didn't have that luxury at previous sessions. But now I'm in a new space, so I'll have to see how well the abstractions of my lessons learned apply to a different size/shape room.

 

Cheap Trick is a great band live and Tom P is a great and hugely under-rated bassist.

It's been my experience mixing that a decision needs to be made, the earlier the better. Is the bass the low bottom end or is the kick or some other low frequency instrument?

It gets messy down low pretty quickly if that aspect is not defined.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I didn't hear back from my email inquiry, but maybe it's due to the shop being closed until tomorrow. I looked at their inventory again, and they appear to have the Mesa Subway 1x12, 1x15, and 2x10. In some on-line shootouts, I dislike the 10" speaker size as a recorded sound, but recognize it's very practical for cutting through at live shows (which is why my Fender Bassman LTD does well in that role but not in the studio).

 

The 1x12 sounds better to me than the 1x15 in some demos but not in others, and I definitely notice the slower speaking time of the larger 1x15. I hope I can do a real comparison, and as they have the Mesa Prodigy all-tube amp head (supposedly), I could leave mine at home.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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I made it to Action Music in Falls Church VA after work tonight. Great store, with excellent instruments and amps. They are selling out of Mesa cabinets quickly, via on-line orders, now that the word has gotten out (perhaps due to my mentioning it here, but I doubt many people read this forum even as non-participants). They are probably the only store in the country right now that has any in stock.

 

I tried the Subway 12 first, and found it so-so but not as much to my liking as Bergantino 1x12's, and not really compelling at all. The 15 is another matter entire; I didn't expect such a huge difference! They had just sold the last 2x10 this morning, but I don't really like 10" speakers in ANY configuration for bass guitar in studio work; only for live concerts. And I still prefer 15's even in that context, but the Powerhouse 15 is so big and heavy that I only use it in the studio.

 

The Subway 15 truly blew me away. It was an instant decision. I did have to buy a ¼" to speak-on cable though, as I have been using ¼" cables for the Prodigy plus Powerhouse 15 combination. The Subway 15 is only 37 lbs, and relatively small. I think it sounds better than the Powerhouse (and wish I could sell that one from 3000 miles away). No mid-honk to dial out, and more articulate (neo speaker) without being bright or harsh either. Versatile across all styles and amp settings.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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Nice. I have zero nostalgia for vintage speakers. Modern speakers are much better sounding, more efficient and lighter weight.

 

I was at a pawn shop earlier today, just poking around. I saw a Peavey Special 130. I looked in the back and it still had the original Peavey Scorpion Plus speaker in it.

At one point years ago I was gigging a Peavey Reknown 160 with the same 1-12" open back cabinet and speaker. At that point, the Scorpion Plus was one of my favorite speakers, ever. I'd used and/or owned many different types and brands, blew a few straight to Hell too.

 

Now I can't imagine lugging that thing around, it was very heavy with a huge magnet. The world has changed.

It took a chunk of my life to get here and I am still not sure where "here" is.
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I spent four hours on the Prodigy + Subway combination today, preparing for tomorrow's rehearsal with the band I auditioned for last weekend, doing Beatles plus B-sides and album tracks of bands from the 50's through the 90's. Finger-style, felt pick, plastic pick. Ballads, grunge, hard rock, blues, reggae, r&b, pop. I was in sheer bliss all night. Hoping the guys like this sound and how it cuts through a power trio and vocals tomorrow.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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Wow, this speaker with the Prodigy amp made all the difference in the world at rehearsal today. The drummer said it cuts through no matter my playing style or the type of song.

Eugenio Upright, 60th Anniversary P-Bass, USA Geddy Lee J-Bass, Yamaha BBP35, D'angelico SS Bari, EXL1,

Select Strat, 70th Anniversary Esquire, LP 57, Eastman T486, T64, Ibanez PM2, Hammond XK4, Moog Voyager

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