Solo volume in loud bands

[Coker]

Before COVID, I played a whole set as usual with a big band, with my noise isolating earbuds plus 2 ZXA1s. After the set was done, I discovered I had never turned on the ZXA1s - no one heard me, yet no one even commented about it. Not a real ego boost.

[drawback]

Before COVID, I played a whole set as usual with a big band, with my noise isolating earbuds plus 2 ZXA1s. After the set was done, I discovered I had never turned on the ZXA1s - no one heard me, yet no one even commented about it. Not a real ego boost.

 

I woudn't take it personally â my guess is that other players are so consumed with reading their parts that they're not really listening to what everybody else is doing... which may bring this discussion around to why no one is paying much attention during solo parts. BTW, is there an actual band leader? I mean, one that directs the band dynamically on stage?

[allan_evett]

Gigs where my powered monitor become my PA call for a different approach. As mentioned earlier, blasting oneself out is very easy to do. So I simply can't be in direct line to my speaker(s); otherwise I hear the keyboard(s) over the band (or it's too loud to me, if playing solo).

 

I use a few EQ hacks as well. I roll off the signal below 100 HZ 4 - 6 dB or more, then trim the area in the low 400s at least 3 dB. Also discovered that a slight boost around 6K helps. I use less drastic curves when playing solo, but still like my piano tones to have a bright, clear (low-mid scooped - to varying degrees) tone. Both the warmth and thunder of a recorded piano tend to turn to rumble and mud in many live spaces, so I tend to lighten and clarify the sound for stage.

[Reezekeys]

So nobody took any solos on that BB gig? Most horn soloists I know would be listening for chord changes. If they weren't hearing any, turned around and saw you obviously playing but heard nothing, I think that might warrant some kind of comment during the break, if not right after the tune ends. What's up with that band anyway? Strange.

 

I once did the same thing. A few years back I had an in-ears routing setup in my laptop letting me temporarily disconnect the output to my speakers so I could check different patches & levels without sending audio to the house. After adjusting things I forgot to turn the speakers back on! I was playing my ass off and sounding great - in my ears! The guys alerted me after the song, and we all got a good laugh out of it.

[PianoMan51]

A whole song? Whoa!

A whole set? Bail out!

 

Reminds me of a freshman classmate in college (engineering school) who one day told me he was leaving. Why, I asked? Well, he says, I shaved off the entire left side of my beard, kept the right side untouched, and went to all my classes for a day. And nobody noticed. Time to go.

[Reezekeys]

A whole song? Whoa!

Well my eyes were mostly glued to the chart and so were everyone elses' â we only do a few gigs a year with little or no rehearsal. It's possible the entire room was gesticulating wildly at me as I was playing, but I was oblivious â not an atypical attribute for me!

[BbAltered]

Interestingly, the soul-dance band had this very conversation last night at rehearsal. It went about as well as it always goes. We were running thru Josh Stone's cover of Ray Charles I Believe It To My Soul. The intro has an EP doing a bluesy little thing with very sparse accompaniment. As usual, the bass player and drummer are attacking this "sparse accompaniment" as if they are backing ZZTop. The EP part is completely buried. The band leader waves everyone to a halt and tells me "you gotta turn up", and goes on about how that intro is a small keys solo and I should be much louder to make that happen, etc. I replied that it is the job of others to not play over the keys during this keys "solo", and the song itself is not a "turn it up to 11" song, but rather a "play it at 5-7" song, and is furthermore a great song to work on listening and playing with dynamics. Almost as if I had never said a word, the band leader repeats pretty much verbatim what he said previously. (Sigh - They don't listen when I play; they don't listen when I speak.)

 

And we tried it again: Me banging the keys like I hate the damn things and the drummer and bass player playing exactly as they had previously.

 

What makes it so frustrating for me is I know everyone in the band is playing at the top of their abilities, and doing the very best they can. They cannot play it any different or adjust to another player because they are already using up all their skills and resources. So I don't think being angry is going to help, and I don't think a lecture about loudness and group dynamics is going to help. I will say that quieter songs and playing dynamically are real things musicians do, and hope my words bump into a receptive musical mind. But what I really expect is after all the talking is done, the song will be played in the very same way.

[PianoMan51]

A whole song? Whoa!

Well my eyes were mostly glued to the chart and so were everyone elses' â we only do a few gigs a year with little or no rehearsal. It's possible the entire room was gesticulating wildly at me as I was playing, but I was oblivious â not an atypical attribute for me!

The audience may never forget your performance!

 

My solution is to tell my bass player how I"m set up. And yes, on occasion, halfway through the A section he"ll gesticulate, pointing first to my keyboard and then to his ears to let me know I"m not on. My dog does the same thing. Look into my eyes. Then look to my glass of beer. Then back to my eyes. I"m really not trying to make any analogies about bassists.

[timwat]

What makes it so frustrating for me is I know everyone in the band is playing at the top of their abilities, and doing the very best they can. They cannot play it any different or adjust to another player because they are already using up all their skills and resources. So I don't think being angry is going to help, and I don't think a lecture about loudness and group dynamics is going to help. I will say that quieter songs and playing dynamically are real things musicians do, and hope my words bump into a receptive musical mind. But what I really expect is after all the talking is done, the song will be played in the very same way.

 

You're right - you can't ask them to magically become better musicians immediately. Just as it wouldn't be fair for them to ask the same of you.

 

All we can do is keep working to get better ourselves, hope that some of the folks we play with are doing the same, and maybe have a great conversation about it with them from time to time. There's that old saying, "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear". I've found that occasionally the conversation that never went anywhere with the bro FINALLY goes somewhere, because he was finally getting curious about improving in that area (sometimes it's his time, or his phrasing, or playing more sparse, or whatever). Same has been true for me, if I'm honest. Often I'm too stubborn, pigheaded or stupid to take the advice in the moment.

 

With a few people, they've never been willing to put in the work or be open to the conversation. Some of those I choose not to play with anymore.

[Morrissey]

Interestingly, the soul-dance band had this very conversation last night at rehearsal. It went about as well as it always goes. We were running thru Josh Stone's cover of Ray Charles I Believe It To My Soul. The intro has an EP doing a bluesy little thing with very sparse accompaniment. As usual, the bass player and drummer are attacking this "sparse accompaniment" as if they are backing ZZTop. The EP part is completely buried.

 

 

As a half-solution, I've had some success "training" bandmates by presenting this type of situation to them as follows: "let's start quietly/sparsely so we can build up." Some dynamically-challenged musicians lock up when asked to "play less/play quieter" but kind of figure out something when asked to "play less/quieter so you can play more/louder a bit later."

[timwat]

Some dynamically-challenged musicians lock up when asked to "play less/play quieter" but kind of figure out something when asked to "play less/quieter so you can play more/louder a bit later."

 

I like this - never tried it deliberately, but it makes sense. I'll try this next time I need it.

[EscapeRocks]

Interestingly, the soul-dance band had this very conversation last night at rehearsal. It went about as well as it always goes. We were running thru Josh Stone's cover of Ray Charles I Believe It To My Soul. The intro has an EP doing a bluesy little thing with very sparse accompaniment. As usual, the bass player and drummer are attacking this "sparse accompaniment" as if they are backing ZZTop. The EP part is completely buried. The band leader waves everyone to a halt and tells me "you gotta turn up", and goes on about how that intro is a small keys solo and I should be much louder to make that happen, etc. I replied that it is the job of others to not play over the keys during this keys "solo", and the song itself is not a "turn it up to 11" song, but rather a "play it at 5-7" song, and is furthermore a great song to work on listening and playing with dynamics. Almost as if I had never said a word, the band leader repeats pretty much verbatim what he said previously. (Sigh - They don't listen when I play; they don't listen when I speak.)

 

.

 

 

This always perplexes me. How do some musicians make it so far in the gig world without understanding dynamics. I don't know your situation, or if it's even feasible for you to say goodbye to them and find others who understand when playing in a band, we are serving the music, not ourselves.

[stoken6]

Some dynamically-challenged musicians lock up when asked to "play less/play quieter" but kind of figure out something when asked to "play less/quieter so you can play more/louder a bit later."

 

I like this - never tried it deliberately, but it makes sense. I'll try this next time I need it.

I've had to ram it home with "you, and you - don't play in the verse. At all. Come in on the chorus". It's a coarse hand on the master fader, but better than no dynamics.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[drawback]

Interestingly, the soul-dance band had this very conversation last night at rehearsal. It went about as well as it always goes. We were running thru Josh Stone's cover of Ray Charles I Believe It To My Soul. The intro has an EP doing a bluesy little thing with very sparse accompaniment. As usual, the bass player and drummer are attacking this "sparse accompaniment" as if they are backing ZZTop. The EP part is completely buried. The band leader waves everyone to a halt and tells me "you gotta turn up", and goes on about how that intro is a small keys solo and I should be much louder to make that happen, etc. I replied that it is the job of others to not play over the keys during this keys "solo", and the song itself is not a "turn it up to 11" song, but rather a "play it at 5-7" song, and is furthermore a great song to work on listening and playing with dynamics. Almost as if I had never said a word, the band leader repeats pretty much verbatim what he said previously. (Sigh - They don't listen when I play; they don't listen when I speak.)

 

.

 

 

This always perplexes me. How do some musicians make it so far in the gig world without understanding dynamics. I don't know your situation, or if it's even feasible for you to say goodbye to them and find others who understand when playing in a band, we are serving the music, not ourselves.

 

I would say dynamics is (are?) probably the last thing that dawns on a band after counting to 4, transcribing pentatonic solos, squinting at chords, watching their hands, hitting the 1 at the same time, perfecting their moves, checking out the girls. YOMV*

 

 

 

*Your Order May Vary

[The Real MC]

This is how I cut through a wall of dual guitar southern rock using short ambience reverb.

 

Southern Rock Band demo

 

It's not a DP, it's a piano patch I made on the Alesis Andromeda. Yes an analog polysynth. There's also a Wurly patch in the ZZTop and PF song. All the keyboard parts except the Hammond/Leslie are Andromeda.

 

"Call Me The Breeze" is another wall of guitar, yet you can hear my piano rhythm parts.

 

It's not how loud you make it - it's how you make it loud.

[cphollis]

This is how I cut through a wall of dual guitar southern rock using short ambience reverb.

 

Southern Rock Band demo

 

It's not a DP, it's a piano patch I made on the Alesis Andromeda. Yes an analog polysynth. There's also a Wurly patch in the ZZTop and PF song. All the keyboard parts except the Hammond/Leslie are Andromeda.

 

"Call Me The Breeze" is another wall of guitar, yet you can hear my piano rhythm parts.

 

It's not how loud you make it - it's how you make it loud.

 

That was sort of my point earlier. Come up with bright, punchy voices that sit well in the mix. I'm also betting your homemade piano patch doesn't sound so great for solo piano work.

[The Real MC]

That was sort of my point earlier. Come up with bright, punchy voices that sit well in the mix. I'm also betting your homemade piano patch doesn't sound so great for solo piano work.

 

Let's say you wouldn't catch me using it to play classical on a concert stage, or jazz. But for RnR when you don't use the bottom two octaves, it delivers.

[KuruPrionz]

Interestingly, the soul-dance band had this very conversation last night at rehearsal. It went about as well as it always goes. We were running thru Josh Stone's cover of Ray Charles I Believe It To My Soul. The intro has an EP doing a bluesy little thing with very sparse accompaniment. As usual, the bass player and drummer are attacking this "sparse accompaniment" as if they are backing ZZTop. The EP part is completely buried. The band leader waves everyone to a halt and tells me "you gotta turn up", and goes on about how that intro is a small keys solo and I should be much louder to make that happen, etc. I replied that it is the job of others to not play over the keys during this keys "solo", and the song itself is not a "turn it up to 11" song, but rather a "play it at 5-7" song, and is furthermore a great song to work on listening and playing with dynamics. Almost as if I had never said a word, the band leader repeats pretty much verbatim what he said previously. (Sigh - They don't listen when I play; they don't listen when I speak.)

 

And we tried it again: Me banging the keys like I hate the damn things and the drummer and bass player playing exactly as they had previously.

 

What makes it so frustrating for me is I know everyone in the band is playing at the top of their abilities, and doing the very best they can. They cannot play it any different or adjust to another player because they are already using up all their skills and resources. So I don't think being angry is going to help, and I don't think a lecture about loudness and group dynamics is going to help. I will say that quieter songs and playing dynamically are real things musicians do, and hope my words bump into a receptive musical mind. But what I really expect is after all the talking is done, the song will be played in the very same way.

 

The band I am in now needed some "sprucing up" and I really enjoy everyone in the band - all decent, trustworthy and true friends.

I know the futility of trying to talk to people, they don't listen.

BUT, I made some real improvements in the sound of the band a different way. I didn't say a word, except "Here is your CD of the recording I made of yesterday's gig."

 

I started putting a Tascam DR-40 (any small battery powered recorder will do the trick) on the far side of the dance floor on a short tripod out of everybody's way.

I turn it on, set levels and let it run all night. Later, I chop out the breaks and deliver audio CDs of all sets from that show.

 

Not a word, ever. If they don't hear how bad it sounds when everybody just pummels away like mindless animals then it's time to start looking for something else to do.

The current band started playing much more dynamically and far fewer notes. We sound much better this year than we did last year and the year before. It took some time but great progress was made.

When you hear yourself and cringe, you will work on not doing that anymore.

Recordings have no ego and do not lie. The truth cannot be denied and if that truth causes pain, things will change.

[elif]

Oddly, on reflection, I think the most dynamics observing group I have played with was a blues band. Those guys were not trained and had average ears but used those ears to listen and to use dynamics to create, i guess you'd call it drama in the music. Whisper soft to controlled intensity. Listening at a volume that one can hear every part of the band (as well as yourself) is key. These days, I'm resigned to it happening rarely. In the pre-covid group, the drummer would get mumbling angry when anyone would tell him he was too loud (he was). I expect he heard it a lot.

[PianoMan51]

In the early 70s I locked horns with a bass player. I asked the band to turn down a bit during my piano solos. The bassist responded 'That"s not the way this music works. The band stays the same volume and solos ride on top." End of discussion. He was absolutely sure. I was flummoxed. He was a good bassist and had a great ear. But his definition of 'rock music" and mine differed.

 

My hypothesis was that he and I had different musical upbringings.

 

I played classical as a kid and was always in school and university music groups. I conducted. Dynamics were a fundamental part of my musical vocabulary.

 

The bassist on the other hand was self-taught and had been playing in rock groups since he was 13. His teacher was records. Three minutes of LOUD. Hard hitting, immediate. Compressed like hell. Little to no dynamics.

 

Today I have a more nuanced view. I think that there is a 'style" of music that has no dynamics. It"s popular as hell. From a keyboard perspective this is the kind of music that for a bass line you want to use a non-velocity sensitive Moog.

 

Looking back I think I wanted to play in Little Feat. He wanted to play in Small Faces.

 

Lesson learned? For me, some musicians love dynamics and some hate them. You don"t want to waste time and create aggravation by trying to teach someone to do something they hate. At least for $100 gigs. You can train a duck to climb trees, but wouldn"t you rather hire a squirrel?

[cphollis]

True, there are many popular music styles that have the expressive dynamics of a metronome. People do like that kind of stuff. It's the sort of music that makes me reach for the off button on the car radio.

 

If that's what you're playing, then -- yes -- it's on me the soloist to rise above the fray and create some sonic interest. Doing that with an AP sound would take a bit of extra work. Much easier with synth, organ, etc.

[timwat]

The bassist responded 'That"s not the way this music works. The band stays the same volume and solos ride on top."

 

A commonly held opinion. Seems to me this is why guys like Jan Hammer and Tom Coster went down the route of throwing guitar amps and distortion pedals at synths, and guys like Jordan Rudess and Derek Sherinian go down their respective paths today.

[bfields]

Surely the people that make pop songs that stay at exactly the same dynamic actually think a *lot* about dynamics? I mean, how else are you going to cram everything in at exactly maximum volume even as vocals and instrumental textures come and go?

 

"The band stays the same volume and solos ride on top" sounds like a policy that's motivated more by how easy it is to put into practice than by any sort of aesthetic preference....

[BbAltered]

This always perplexes me. How do some musicians make it so far in the gig world without understanding dynamics. I don't know your situation, or if it's even feasible for you to say goodbye to them and find others who understand when playing in a band, we are serving the music, not ourselves.

 

I live in a pretty rural area. Most of the live music being made in this area is country, with some 2+ guitar blues bands. For all my complaints, this band I'm in plays more shows and more higher paying shows and plays a more varied and higher quality of music than any other band around. So for now, I'm playing with them. These days, I am thinking of making a change, but right now, any change will be a change to fewer and more poorly-played shows.

 

The band leader who was telling me I should turn it up and ignoring my comments about not burying a soloist actually has a high level of musical training - so he reads music, played in a jazz big band, and understands (on paper anyways) pianissimo and forte. (He's also a trumpeter, so pianissimo is sort of a foreign language for him and he is rarely buried by other when soloing.) If someone was to sit and talk to him, he would readily acknowledge that varying dynamics makes for a better performance. There exists a wide gulf between what we think, what we say out loud, and what actions we take.

[Iconoclast]

Everyone's got an opinion...and this one's mine.

 

The best bands I've ever been in usually got a little louder during solo sections and then got back out of the way when the singer started again. We just knew how to not step on the same part of the frequency spectrum at the same time so the solos don't get drowned out. How? I don't know, we just did. We probably started by having more than a little headroom to begin with and a drummer who could play busy without playing loud, leaving everyone else with a little space to play with.

 

I recently replaced the drums in my home studio from a DW super pro set to a smaller vintage Ludwig set. I can't believe how much better EVERYTHING sounds because we're not competing with that much louder drumset (As an aside, if you own a studio and aren't a drummer, don't worry, some drummer you know will need a place to store a drumset and practice. I've had a studio for 15 years and have never bought a single piece of drum equipment and we've always had a drumset in there. I'm on the 4th one now, and without a doubt, the smaller the drum kit, the better the band sounds).

 

Guitar players get blamed for volume issues, but my experience is those problems frequently start with the Drummer, then the Bass player, and the guitar player is the last link in that chain of events. When guitars get loud they operate in a frequency spectrum that hurts...so we blame the guitar player.

 

I know there are guitar players who blow this right out. They frequently play a vintage plexi with no master volume etc. that they can't stop raving about. Classic rock bands with 2 guitar players are the most difficult unless the guys really know how to mix.

 

But a loud bass player won't hurt your ears, he'll just take up all the soundscape and force everyone to turn up until they're hurting your ears.

 

I also think that turning down during someone else's solo is frequently difficult because frequently the rhythm section of a band gets BUSIER during a solo, not to mention that usually AFTER the solo, there's vocals, which you REALLY need to get out of the way of, so where does that lead you? In an eternal spiral of lower volumes? Like that ever happens.

[Morrissey]

In the early 70s I locked horns with a bass player. I asked the band to turn down a bit during my piano solos. The bassist responded 'That"s not the way this music works. The band stays the same volume and solos ride on top." End of discussion. He was absolutely sure. I was flummoxed. He was a good bassist and had a great ear. But his definition of 'rock music" and mine differed.

 

My hypothesis was that he and I had different musical upbringings.

 

Another hypothesis: I know some bar band musicians who are afraid that low volume will equate to low energy or otherwise cause the audience to disengage. I don't think that's true but some want the safety of consistent volume.

[o0Ampy0o]

Everyone's got an opinion.....a loud bass player won't hurt your ears, he'll just take up all the soundscape and force everyone to turn up until they're hurting your ears.

Odd, I have experienced loud bass that pounds your ears as well as your body. The band has not responded by turning up. I don't know whether the band hears what the audience hears. I wonder whether their monitors are fed a good mix and they are oblivious to what is going on.

[CowboyNQ]

On the overall and slightly tangential subject of FOH volume - IMO many FOH engineers suffer from industrial deafness - particularly those who are also drummers - and tend to crank FOH up way too loud.

 

Live music needs to have punch but shouldn"t leave the audience with their ears ringing.

[Scandel]

If you are hauling all that gear back and forth, and you and/or the audience can not hear you, its time to find other players or do the solo act. Why bother.

[Coker]

If you are hauling all that gear back and forth, and you and/or the audience can not hear you, its time to find other players or do the solo act. Why bother.

I did quit that band.