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Kronos discontinued?


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OK the DX7 might have been a bad example of a board most folks didn't bother programming their own sounds on. I'll be more careful with my comparisons in the future! :)

 

Workstations can be complicated. Even my old Roland XP50, which I got when they first came out, had quite the learning curve. Since I've been laptop-based the last 15 year or so I haven't had to program on any workstation. However, my original point stands - I think expensive workstations may be on the decline simply because music styles are changing, and the "producers" and "musicians" fueling what's left of the music industry don't need them, or at least they don't need the kitchen-sink of features. Actually, the goal in designing my laptop system way back then was to recreate the functionality of a workstation keyboard â only with a laptop I can throw into a backpack and a small controller that's easily carried with one hand.

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If indeed the hardware of the Korg Kronos is an Atom based Linux machine with audio and Midi interface, it is strange there's no Linux system image equivalent you can start on a PC, with some patches for other IO devices. The power of a verymodest Notebook screwed in a synth workstation enclosure can't be the major part of the $4k price tag, so that's apparently some expensive software we're talking about ?

 

T

 

Software development is the most time consuming and costly aspect of building products like the Kronos. There were some articles that did a very deep dive into the Yamaha Montage internals and in end he said the same thing and why system updates take a long time. Then from my background in the computer biz the even bigger time and money pit is to QA these massive system. Yamaha recenly put out a Montage/ModX update and saw customer bitching "it was main just bug fixes". You just can't win.

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I mean: take your Kronos SSD and copy it to a linux machine with the same screen and audio interface, and off you go!

 

I thought it might be there's additional processing hardware in, but if there isn't, I don't think it is much of an additional feat to use a PC arch for the signal processing of a powerful workstation, even with a dedicated OS and system, the actual processing power isn't that great compared with dedicated DSP for a lot of things, so I don't feel the K is a great sound deal that makes me interested in the studio high grade components in it's sound.

 

T.

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I mean: take your Kronos SSD and copy it to a linux machine with the same screen and audio interface, and off you go!

Well, there are other boards in a Kronos besides the PC motherboard. But regardless, I believe Korg does system integrity checks to assure that the Kronos' customized Linux OS will not boot in anything but a Kronos. (In fact, I read a post somewhere that said that a good amount of the board's long boot time is essentially a result of its heavy duty copy protection. But, you know, that's just something I read on the internet.)

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I mean: take your Kronos SSD and copy it to a linux machine with the same screen and audio interface, and off you go!

 

I thought it might be there's additional processing hardware in, but if there isn't, I don't think it is much of an additional feat to use a PC arch for the signal processing of a powerful workstation, even with a dedicated OS and system, the actual processing power isn't that great compared with dedicated DSP for a lot of things, so I don't feel the K is a great sound deal that makes me interested in the studio high grade components in it's sound.

 

T.

If only it was that easy... I mean, it is possible to transplant the Kronos' guts into another motherboard, but I don't think you could connect a generic audio interface, a MIDI keyboard and call it a day. I mean, if I had a Kronos I could try... :laugh:

My guess is that their software is strictly built for their hardware. Also there's quite of file system encryption implemented. So, I think it would be theoretically possible, but unlikely to happen.

Yamaha MODX7 | iPad Mini 2 | Raspberry Pi 3
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I've been a user of Linux for use at work for servers and personal use since 1992 so a fan. But there is a lot more to building projects like a synth workstation on both hardware and software side. But hey you guys should jump in start rallying people for a FOSS synth project that could grow into a workstation. Linux has been ported to Apple ARM silicon so you have a powerful chip to target. Go for it.

 

Maybe you can come up with a formula to calculate the amount of pizza, beer, and coffee per year necessary to bring this project to the masses.

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O However, my original point stands - I think expensive workstations may be on the decline simply because music styles are changing, and the "producers" and "musicians" fueling what's left of the music industry don't need them, or at least they don't need the kitchen-sink of features. Actually, the goal in designing my laptop system way back then was to recreate the functionality of a workstation keyboard â only with a laptop I can throw into a backpack and a small controller that's easily carried with one hand.

 

lots of big truth there.

 

There are 20 million SoundCloud creators .

 

99% of them use loops, vocal, their laptops similar to what you say.

 

I might be the only one using a Kronos for my originals on Soundcloud.

 

1 in 20 Million. ;)

Why fit in, when you were born to stand out ?

My Soundcloud with many originals:

[70's Songwriter]

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O However, my original point stands - I think expensive workstations may be on the decline simply because music styles are changing, and the "producers" and "musicians" fueling what's left of the music industry don't need them, or at least they don't need the kitchen-sink of features. Actually, the goal in designing my laptop system way back then was to recreate the functionality of a workstation keyboard â only with a laptop I can throw into a backpack and a small controller that's easily carried with one hand.

 

lots of big truth there.

 

There are 20 million SoundCloud creators .

 

99% of them use loops, vocal, their laptops similar to what you say.

 

I might be the only one using a Kronos for my originals on Soundcloud.

 

1 in 20 Million. ;)

 

Thanks for highlighting what I was eluding to. I do think that production changes, younger people"s preferences and habits, will have an impact on where the workstation developers spend their resources.

Yamaha CP88, Casio PX-560

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Workstations offer a facsimile of every sound imaginable and plug and play immediacy. If one is willing to go underneath the hood to program sounds, sample or compose music using the sequencer, it's there too.

 

Surely, a laptop loaded with software, an audio interface and a KB MIDI controller offers the same features and functionality. However, once costs are added up, it's about the same.

 

It really comes down to the workflow that best suits the muso. Easy to pack up a Kronos or Nautilus and dash off to a rehearsal, studio session or a gig. :cool:

PD

 

"The greatest thing you'll ever learn, is just to love and be loved in return."--E. Ahbez "Nature Boy"

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Workstations offer a facsimile of every sound imaginable and plug and play immediacy. If one is willing to go underneath the hood to program sounds, sample or compose music using the sequencer, it's there too.

Absolutely. Put it on the stand, turn it on, and everything is there in front of you ready to go.

Surely, a laptop loaded with software, an audio interface and a KB MIDI controller offers the same features and functionality. However, once costs are added up, it's about the same.

True, except in my case â and I suspect, many others' â I already had the laptop! I didn't have to buy one just to make music. So I might take the cost of that piece out of the equation. And what workstation can I buy that's gonna give me a Pianoteq, NI, or Spectrasonics-quality piano? Or a Trilogy acoustic bass, or those horns that crossfade pp to fff samples with different articulations, etc. etc. Having a laptop rig means you can pick and choose exactly the sounds you want and need â and you have the opportunity to get the highest-quality ones too. Of course there's the downside of having to program and maintain a computer rig, and issues in transport, setup, backing up, etc. For me it's the pleasure and satisfaction I get on a gig that makes all that worthwhile. I can't blame my tools when I suck!

It really comes down to the workflow that best suits the muso. Easy to pack up a Kronos and dash off to a rehearsal, studio session or a gig. :cool:

100% agreed there. However I can also load my laptop setup in advance, sleep the computer, then at the gig open the lid and plug my controller's USB cable in and I'm ready to go. I've done this at some festival gigs with multiple bands and quick set changes.

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It fans, wannabes, those people with day jobs that jam with friends on weekends. Midlife crisis guys trying to relive their dream that never worked out by staring at the ultimate rig.

 

Wow, it"s like you know me or something ;)

Nord Stage 2 Compact, Yamaha MODX8

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Workstations offer a facsimile of every sound imaginable and plug and play immediacy. If one is willing to go underneath the hood to program sounds, sample or compose music using the sequencer, it's there too.

Absolutely. Put it on the stand, turn it on, and everything is there in front of you ready to go.

Surely, a laptop loaded with software, an audio interface and a KB MIDI controller offers the same features and functionality. However, once costs are added up, it's about the same.

True, except in my case â and I suspect, many others' â I already had the laptop! I didn't have to buy one just to make music. So I might take the cost of that piece out of the equation. And what workstation can I buy that's gonna give me a Pianoteq, NI, or Spectrasonics-quality piano? Or a Trilogy acoustic bass, or those horns that crossfade pp to fff samples with different articulations, etc. etc. Having a laptop rig means you can pick and choose exactly the sounds you want and need â and you have the opportunity to get the highest-quality ones too. Of course there's the downside of having to program and maintain a computer rig, and issues in transport, setup, backing up, etc. For me it's the pleasure and satisfaction I get on a gig that makes all that worthwhile. I can't blame my tools when I suck!

It really comes down to the workflow that best suits the muso. Easy to pack up a Kronos and dash off to a rehearsal, studio session or a gig. :cool:

100% agreed there. However I can also load my laptop setup in advance, sleep the computer, then at the gig open the lid and plug my controller's USB cable in and I'm ready to go. I've done this at some festival gigs with multiple bands and quick set changes.

 

I"m 10+ years late to the Kronos party having recently got a like-new 61, but I"ve discovered that beyond its qualities as a workstation it makes a great controller.

____________________________________
Rod

Here for the gear.

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I'm not sure if I'm remembering right, but if I am, the Kronos was the first workstation to feature a piano that streamed samples from an SSD, allowing full-length unlooped samples that up until then were only available on computer-based plugins. I remember playing one in a store and being very impressed. I have no doubt I would have been happy to own one if I hadn't already started down the laptop + controller road. I did lose touch with the various updates & new models though. Nice to hear it functions well as a controller. Still, I'm happy with my 10 lb A800 Pro that I can lift with one finger and easily fly to all my gigs (well, the gigs I used to have, lol!). For an old guy like me, it's pretty amazing to think what we can do with any of these high-end workstations compared to what we were using back in the day.
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I do think that production changes, younger people"s preferences and habits, will have an impact on where the workstation developers spend their resources.

 

Roland understands this more than anyone else. That's why Fantom got model synths first instead of drawbar organs.

 

The shift from all in one workstations wasn't all about plugins, hosts and laptops. I've always run a old school midi rig but with modern workstations and other synths under control of the DAW and/or their internal sequencers. Everything is distributed and I can focus on the best parts of the instrument and with enough gear, I rarely use plugins on my tracks. I could replace my Kronos with a Nautilus and probably not miss much at all. It would simply be a different way of working. I'm guessing the younger players aren't constrained by the past so the need for all the functions in 10 year old workstations isn't all that important. Kronos is definitely at it's end of life for many reasons. Nautilus gives Korg a new case design and something to offer until they can fill it with their next gen synth.

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I do think that production changes, younger people"s preferences and habits, will have an impact on where the workstation developers spend their resources.

 

Roland understands this more than anyone else. That's why Fantom got model synths first instead of drawbar organs.

I don't see a reason to assume that Roland's thoughts about workflow trends or preferences of younger users are the reason the Fantom got modeled 1980's synths before organs...

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I do think that production changes, younger people"s preferences and habits, will have an impact on where the workstation developers spend their resources.

 

Roland understands this more than anyone else. That's why Fantom got model synths first instead of drawbar organs.

I don't see a reason to assume that Roland's thoughts about workflow trends or preferences of younger users are the reason the Fantom got modeled 1970's synths before organs...

All four model expansions are '80s analog boards. And the younger crowd loves '80s music and stuff.

Yamaha: Motif XF8, MODX7, YS200, CVP-305, CLP-130, YPG-235, PSR-295, PSS-470 | Roland: Fantom 7, JV-1000

Kurzweil: PC3-76, PC4 (88) | Hammond: SK Pro 73 | Korg: Triton LE 76, N1R, X5DR | Emu: Proteus/1 | Casio: CT-370 | Novation: Launchkey 37 MK3 | Technics: WSA1R

Former: Emu Proformance Plus & Mo'Phatt, Korg Krome 61, Roland Fantom XR & JV-1010, Yamaha MX61, Behringer CAT

Assorted electric & acoustic guitars and electric basses | Roland TD-17 KVX | Alesis SamplePad Pro | Assorted organs, accordions, other instruments

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All four model expansions are '80s analog boards.

Whoops, 80s, not 70s. Fixed. But I still wouldn't assume what Roland's motivation/thinking there was.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I don't see a reason to assume that Roland's thoughts about workflow trends or preferences of younger users are the reason the Fantom got modeled 1980's synths before organs...

 

Right. Because nothing is going to create more buzz around a new product than adding organs & EPs. In the end, what difference does it make? It' was the right move indeed!

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I'm not talking about whether or not it was the best approach they could have taken ("the right move")... I'm saying we don't know the reasons behind it.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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I think the DX7 isn't a good example, and it persists for FM to this day. Very few humans have the ability to internalize FM, mostly because our brains don't think intuitively in terms of Fourier coefficients in the spectral representation of audio.

I doubt if 0.1% of musicians could create a predictable acoustic instrument or even a sonically pre-thought-out sound from scratch using FM. Even Chowning stumbled into it quite by accident experimenting with the modulation ratios.

Once you understand the math you have a fighting chance but even then it's not intuitive.

 

I had a DX-7 for many years and I found the secret to making analog sounds. I had a string patch that my diehard Oberheim friends couldn"t distinguish from a string patch on my Oberheim Xpander, which was based on the Matrix 12.

 

It does individual string instruments reasonably well because it captures the rosin/bow attack (one of the reasons Cello was a factory patch). But it wasn't good at the lush strings like the OB or SC subtractive ala Lyle Mays. I'd love to hear how you did yours if you could show the algorithm and settings or still have audio you could post.

 

I used algorithm #2. All operators were tuned to a 1 to 1 ratio.

Operator 2 had feedback turned up. So it was close to 2 sawtooth waves. Then I switched the two carriers (operators 1 and 3) to fixed frequency of zero (or 1). I had to tweak it a bit. Playing with it some more I came up with sound like the growling synth sound on Tom Sawyer. I may have used the pitch envelope for that.

 

It was switching the carriers to fixed frequency that did it.

 

Quick hijack of the thread into the FM weeds... it's Bessel functions, not Fourier coefficients, that creates the behavior quirks many find hard to internalize.

 

And DX7 sine wave FM, even with the the tricks Radagast mentions, won't yield string sounds anywhere near the Oberheim timbres. Your ears will be somewhat fooled say for maybe 12-18 notes worth of range maybe an octave, octave and a half above middle C. But the low notes are nowhere close, harmonically, as you can easily hear the 'gaps' in upper harmonics that your ears can't hear are missing in the upper registers. I'm guessing if your Oberheim centric friends were fooled, they've likely spent way too much time in front of loud Marshall stacks :idk:

 

There's adding on chorus and reverb that helps; a DX7II can get a bit better; a TX816 could get to 'reasonably close but noticeably different' if you know what to do, but in the end there's no way to really get the type of high order harmonic density of those awesome Oberheim saw waves in that original sine wave only FM implementation.

 

So, back on topic -- MOD7 in the Kronos is an exceptionally well implemented FM/PM engine. It has a deeper implementation of what Yamaha did in the SY77/99 -- complex waveforms, phase control, patchable feedbacks, filtering etc. which allow you to overcome the harmonic density issues of sine wave only FM. You have to use the computer based editor to get down and dirty into those nuts and bolts. And then learning how multiple feedbacks and phase offesets interact with everything is a whole 'nother ball of wax, definitely quite 'timey wimey" type stuff.

 

So, to your point, how many are aware of the capabilites and utilized it ?!? 0.1% might be extremely generous :)

 

I've always fancied a dedicated "MOD7 in a box" and was hopefull with the Opsix. But nice as it is, they cut the parameter set a bit too much (no Op phase control !) So if they do ever 'blow them out' I could easily see picking up a Kronos61 just for MOD7

 

Manny

People assume timbre is a strict progression of input to harmonics, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timbrally-wimbrally... stuff

 

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Quick hijack of the thread into the FM weeds... it's Bessel functions, not Fourier coefficients, that creates the behavior quirks many find hard to internalize.

 

And DX7 sine wave FM, even with the the tricks Radagast mentions, won't yield string sounds anywhere near the Oberheim timbres. Your ears will be somewhat fooled say for maybe 12-18 notes worth of range maybe an octave, octave and a half above middle C. But the low notes are nowhere close, harmonically, as you can easily hear the 'gaps' in upper harmonics that your ears can't hear are missing in the upper registers. I'm guessing if your Oberheim centric friends were fooled, they've likely spent way too much time in front of loud Marshall stacks :idk:

 

There's adding on chorus and reverb that helps; a DX7II can get a bit better; a TX816 could get to 'reasonably close but noticeably different' if you know what to do, but in the end there's no way to really get the type of high order harmonic density of those awesome Oberheim saw waves in that original sine wave only FM implementation.

 

 

 

Manny

 

Well Doc, back into the FM weeds for a bit. If you look at algorithm 2 on a DX-7, you"ll notice that it isn"t just one sine wave modulating another sine wave. Modulating operator 4 is being modulated by operator 5, which is being modulated by operator six. Each layer of modulation added more upper harmonics to the result. The operator 1 and 2 pair isn"t enough by itself. But the feedback on operator 2 makes up for the lack of additional modulators that you find in the 3, 4, 5, 6 stack. And my hearing is just fine. It had the silky smoothness that my Oberheim had. Now if you are talking about buzzy sounds like on the song Jump, then you aren"t talking about typical string patches that had some low pass filtering to take the edge off. And I assure you, my DX-7 patch had plenty of upper harmonics for a good analog string patch. And if was good for many octaves. The highest octave had some aliasing in it, but how many people play analog string sounds in the highest octave? The trick that gave it some analog randomness was using fixed frequently on the carrier operators anyway. And the DX-7 was strictly speaking phase modulation, instead of true frequency modulation, so maybe that had something to do with it.

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Quick hijack of the thread into the FM weeds... it's Bessel functions, not Fourier coefficients, that creates the behavior quirks many find hard to internalize.

 

And DX7 sine wave FM, even with the the tricks Radagast mentions, won't yield string sounds anywhere near the Oberheim timbres. Your ears will be somewhat fooled say for maybe 12-18 notes worth of range maybe an octave, octave and a half above middle C. But the low notes are nowhere close, harmonically, as you can easily hear the 'gaps' in upper harmonics that your ears can't hear are missing in the upper registers. I'm guessing if your Oberheim centric friends were fooled, they've likely spent way too much time in front of loud Marshall stacks :idk:

 

There's adding on chorus and reverb that helps; a DX7II can get a bit better; a TX816 could get to 'reasonably close but noticeably different' if you know what to do, but in the end there's no way to really get the type of high order harmonic density of those awesome Oberheim saw waves in that original sine wave only FM implementation.

 

 

 

Manny

 

Well Doc, back into the FM weeds for a bit. If you look at algorithm 2 on a DX-7, you"ll notice that it isn"t just one sine wave modulating another sine wave. Modulating operator 4 is being modulated by operator 5, which is being modulated by operator six. Each layer of modulation added more upper harmonics to the result. The operator 1 and 2 pair isn"t enough by itself. But the feedback on operator 2 makes up for the lack of additional modulators that you find in the 3, 4, 5, 6 stack. And my hearing is just fine. It had the silky smoothness that my Oberheim had. Now if you are talking about buzzy sounds like on the song Jump, then you aren"t talking about typical string patches that had some low pass filtering to take the edge off. And I assure you, my DX-7 patch had plenty of upper harmonics for a good analog string patch. And if was good for many octaves. The highest octave had some aliasing in it, but how many people play analog string sounds in the highest octave? The trick that gave it some analog randomness was using fixed frequently on the carrier operators anyway. And the DX-7 was strictly speaking phase modulation, instead of true frequency modulation, so maybe that had something to do with it.

 

Radagast,

 

Apologies, no intent to come across as 'that guy' on the internet to troll/diss your perspectives. Trying to be helpful in outlining the characteristics of FM/PM and differences/advantages in various implementations, like MOD7. Thought I'd used emoji's in a way to indicate some tongue and cheek, and was trying to poke light fun at your friend's hearing not yours.

 

Anyway, yes the DX7 is capable of very nice string sounds, done many of them my self :). Nice as they are, given my experience with the DX7 --'silky smooth' and Oberheim-esque is just not what comes to mind in describing the timbre space of that version of Yamaha's FM implementation, IMHO.

 

Manny

People assume timbre is a strict progression of input to harmonics, but actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timbrally-wimbrally... stuff

 

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  • 7 months later...
Interesting.

 

ZZOUNDS just announced the 88 and 73 are back in stock and ready for immediate delivery. 61's are in stock at most places

 

I saw another retailer with some in stock, as well. I"m wondering if it"s just until existing inventory is depleted? I"ve only seen 'We've left this page up for reference only.' at the Sweetwater site when a product has reached EOL.

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing."

- George Bernard Shaw

 

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The Kronos 88 is no longer available at Sweetwater:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Kronos8--korg-kronos-88-key-synthesizer-workstation

 

When they say the page is there 'for reference only' that always means it"s gone.

 

I called Sweetwater and asked if the Kronos has been discontinued. The guy I work with said he would contact Korg and get back to me. I received a call back from Sweetwater. The answer is YES, the Kronos has been discontinued. They are selling through their remaining stock and then it will be gone.

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I wonder if they're working on a new high-end workstation, or if the Nautilus is going to be their high-end workstation for the forseeable future.

Maybe this is the best place for a shameless plug! Our now not-so-new new video at https://youtu.be/3ZRC3b4p4EI is a 40 minute adaptation of T. S. Eliot's "Prufrock" - check it out! And hopefully I'll have something new here this year. ;-)

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Dam don't know if I should feel lucky I bought a Kronos about six months ago and now have a vintage workstation. Or should I feel bad that I now have a EOL workstation. For me personally it's way more keyboard than I need. Like many people you buy things you dreamed of all the big things you're going to do with someday, then you get it and you find your happy just playing keyboard.

 

Oh well Kronos has had a good long run and made it mark in workstation history. RIP Kronos.

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It is 8 months since this thread started and so far nothing from Korg.

 

In some respects that is not surprising at all.

 

It is not as though the live music scene has got back to any resemblance of normality due to Covid, the stupidity of people in avoiding having the vaccines when offered and inept Governments in not focussing on getting the populace vaccinated.

 

It would be a big risk for any manufacturer to design and develop kit to release into a market where the very buyers and hence users of the kit have been very hard hit financially by the lack of gigs.

 

Where is the market for keyboards at present? Probably the newbies, home players and retirees!

 

Casio has the AIX tempter out at present but do any of you think that that will lead to a high end workstation ir synth? I do not!

 

Korg may well be concentrating on developing their Arrangers, they are designed in Italy so staff there need to be engaged in profitable activities and given Yamaha have released three models in recent years Korg are light years behind.

 

Lets see what the New Year brings

Col

 

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