Piano shootout: Ravenscroft, Gem RP-X, P50m, SX-P50, SRX02

[The Piano Man]

So, with no gigs on the go still, I decided to hook up my stage piano and connect a plethora of different piano sounds to test out:

 

Technics P50

Roland SRX02 'dynamic grand'

Gem RP-X

Yamaha P50m patch no.5

Ravenscroft 275 iOS app

 

I ran all through decent headphones first. Verdict:

 

- Ravenscroft has the 'best' sound

- Gem RP-X has the best overall playability in terms of sound to finger connection

- Technics P50 was nice and decent

- Yamaha P50m was suitably bright, if that"s your thing

- Roland SRX was my least favourite

 

I then imagined a gig scenario and ran each in mono, directly into a EV ZXa1

 

The Technics P50 was actually my favourite in this scenario. However, I imagine part of the reason is that this board is not a great controller for other gear.

 

Anyway, I am a former Nord user but could never get a sound that liked live, even running decent Logic System ML8s in stereo. It always sounded good to the audience, but not to me. I also tried an RD2000 but couldn"t get something I was happy with.

 

The old Technics in mono into an EV ZXa1 will do for me.

 

Think I might midi it to the Ravenscroft and run that out of FOH for the audience.

 

Anyway, need some gigs first!

 

Your mileage may vary!

[Josh Paxton]

Anyway, I am a former Nord user but could never get a sound that liked live [...] It always sounded good to the audience, but not to me.

 

Ahh, the Nord piano story in a nutshell.

 

Thanks for the comparison. I too am a fan of Ravenscroft on iOS. Having just replaced the DP in my stage rig with a non-MIDI electromechanical board, I may end up using Ravenscroft (triggered from another board, of course) if there ends up being a tune where I really need an acoustic piano sound, and the EP won't cut it.

[PianoMan51]

My recommendation is just the opposite. (Maybe because you"re the first PianoMan, and I came much later!)

 

Send Mono to FOH. I suggest the R output of Ravenscroft which automatically attenuates a lot of the L hand lows which you don"t want in any band situation. And it eliminates all the nasty phasing issues when you sum a nice stereo signal into Mono. And, to tread on thin ice, very few customers will ever hear both L and R signals in a stereo balance, so just leave it Mono.

 

Then, and just for you because you deserve it, listen to yourself in stereo. Some here bring stereo monitors. Some use in-ears with stereo send. But I don"t play in loud groups so I use a pair of quality earbuds. No, not in-ears. Earbuds which sit in your ears but don"t stop all the other sounds from coming through. This way, no matter what the sound reinforcement system, I can always and easily bump up my piano sound about 6dB for my ears only, so I feel like I"m playing an instrument right in front of me.

[The Piano Man]

My recommendation is just the opposite. (Maybe because you"re the first PianoMan, and I came much later!)

 

Send Mono to FOH. I suggest the R output of Ravenscroft which automatically attenuates a lot of the L hand lows which you don"t want in any band situation. And it eliminates all the nasty phasing issues when you sum a nice stereo signal into Mono. And, to tread on thin ice, very few customers will ever hear both L and R signals in a stereo balance, so just leave it Mono.

 

Then, and just for you because you deserve it, listen to yourself in stereo. Some here bring stereo monitors. Some use in-ears with stereo send. But I don"t play in loud groups so I use a pair of quality earbuds. No, not in-ears. Earbuds which sit in your ears but don"t stop all the other sounds from coming through. This way, no matter what the sound reinforcement system, I can always and easily bump up my piano sound about 6dB for my ears only, so I feel like I"m playing an instrument right in front of me.

 

That actually makes a lot of sense. I did used to enjoy the Nord through in ears. Might try the earbud solution with Ravenscroft. Thanks for the tip

[stoken6]

I did used to enjoy the Nord through in ears.

This is how I've survived the Nord APs for 8 years now. I think the stereo imaging makes the difference.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Reezekeys]

My recommendation is just the opposite. (Maybe because you"re the first PianoMan, and I came much later!)

 

Send Mono to FOH. I suggest the R output of Ravenscroft which automatically attenuates a lot of the L hand lows which you don"t want in any band situation. And it eliminates all the nasty phasing issues when you sum a nice stereo signal into Mono. And, to tread on thin ice, very few customers will ever hear both L and R signals in a stereo balance, so just leave it Mono.

 

Then, and just for you because you deserve it, listen to yourself in stereo. Some here bring stereo monitors. Some use in-ears with stereo send. But I don"t play in loud groups so I use a pair of quality earbuds. No, not in-ears. Earbuds which sit in your ears but don"t stop all the other sounds from coming through. This way, no matter what the sound reinforcement system, I can always and easily bump up my piano sound about 6dB for my ears only, so I feel like I"m playing an instrument right in front of me.

 

PianoMan51 has it mostly right (imo - why can't you have stereo for both yourself and the house?), and once again I find myself wondering what is up with those folks that want the best sound for the audience but not for themselves. Why are we doing this thing called "playing" music?

[PianoMan51]

My aversion to stereo FOH isn"t because I hate the audience and my craft. LOL! It"s because in the last 30 years I have not played a single gig where even 50% of the audience would hear the stereo image. More typically it would be 30%. So a good mix for everybody would have to have a good stereo mix for the center, a good L mix for the left, and a good R mix for the right. At this point what is the stereo mix accomplishing?

 

I can be persuaded to change my opinion with a a stage plot showing speaker placement in a typical auditorium and expected L-R level differences in dB throughout the venue. Then we can discuss how much level difference wipes out any stereo effect vs room reflection.

[jamienewman]

Of the many DP's -- too many!-- I've played, and owned over the decades, my GEM Promega 3 remains my unqualified favorite. Beautiful APs, EPs and other stuff, lovely keyboard, simple, intuitive interface. Too damn heavy for gigging given what I typically get paid for a gig here in flyover country, but still a joy a home. I have an RP-X which occasionally I've used on gigs, but I'm so lazy that I usually can't be bothered with making the extra-cable connections.

[AnotherScott]

My aversion to stereo FOH isn"t because I hate the audience and my craft. LOL! It"s because in the last 30 years I have not played a single gig where even 50% of the audience would hear the stereo image.

I agree... stereo image in a house mix is basically non-existent. Maybe okay if it's a long narrow room, which would at least maximize the number of people in the sweet spot. But the more of your audience is off to a side, the worse a stereo mix becomes, to the point where the majority of the audience can easily be hearing a more poorly balanced sound than if everyone were just hearing mono.

 

An alternative is to create a stereo mix where there is just a little space created, i.e. nothing is panned very far off from center. That probably works best for signals that are, themselves, mono (like a voice or guitar... or a keyboard run in mono). Once you send a stereo piano (as we're talking about in this thread), you can create phasing issues as soon as you don't pan hard left and right. So then you may want to pan hard, but you'll want to be sure that someone hearing just one side of the stereo signal is still getting a good piano sound. Odds are, they would be hearing a better piano sound if it were mono.

 

I think stereo can work if you're in a small venue and if the audience is hearing you out of your own speakers (not the main vocal PA), and that pair of speakers are pretty close to each other. I still wouldn't expect most people to get stereo imaging, but they would get some sense of spaciousness from the pair, and (unlikle feeding FOH) they would be hearing roughly the same balance of the two speakers almost regardless of where they were in the venue.

[Reezekeys]

I understand that a sizable minority, or maybe even a majority of an audience may not be in that sweet spot to get a "perfect" stereo image of our pianos. I still think that whatever they do hear would be superior to a phase-compromised mono feed coming out both L&R PA speakers, or one of the stereo outputs going to both L&R FOH speakers. There are many variables here, such as the room size, how reflective the walls are, how far apart the PA speakers are, etc. In my experience however, anything you do to avoid the crappy, boxy sound of phase-cancelled L&R piano samples coming out of a single speaker beats the negative of a "less-than-perfect" stereo image â a negative that quite possibly many audience members will not experience, or be aware of. If I ever get back on the road again I'll ask our sound man what he thinks of all this, since I hear myself through in-ears!

[AnotherScott]

I still think that whatever they do hear would be superior to a phase-compromised mono feed coming out both L&R PA speakers, or one of the stereo outputs going to both L&R FOH speakers.

You can usually avoid a phase-compromised version by selecting an appropriate piano patch. If none is available, having the whole audience hear the "right side" of the piano is arguably better than having part of the audience hear mostly the right side, another part hearing mostly the left (which tends to wound worse by itself), and only a minority hearing a good amount of both.

[Reezekeys]

Again, and to add: I don't prefer stereo for FOH because I think an audience will then "hear me in stereo." Actually, they most probably won't hear the kind of stereo that I hear through my ears; I know that, and I'm fine with it! What they won't hear, or hopefully hear much less of, is the R+L boxy, muddy, shit sound that I know my piano produces when it's collapsed to mono.

 

To those who say "give FOH one side of your stereo feed to avoid phase issues": yes - perfect! Give the left side of the house (stage right) the left output, and give the right side your right output! Problem solved, right? Everyone in the middle, the "sweet spot", gets your glorious stereo piano - and everybody on the sides gets the one side they're closest to â so, no phasing!

 

[edit - what I wrote above is not a reply to Scott who got his post in while I was composing mine! I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. There's obviously gonna be compromises needing to be made and imo you have to pick the one that has the least ill effects. Even the folks getting mostly left or mostly right are going to get some of the other side via reflections. I would agree that there might be certain situations where nothing but a mono piano might do. If I had a beefier computer I would consider running a separate piano that worked in mono and triggering it along with my usual guy which I'd save for myself. That may be a viable option somewhere down the line.]

[AnotherScott]

Give the left side of the house (stage right) the left output, and give the right side your right output! Problem solved, right? Everyone in the middle, the "sweet spot", gets your glorious stereo piano - and everybody on the sides gets the one side they're closest to â so, no phasing!

It may depend on the patch, but the left side tends to be low-end heavy. So the people getting your left output are probably getting worse sound than if you'd sent everyone the right output OR a non-phase problematic mono output). You may be sacrificing the quality for one chunk of the audience to get better quality for the "sweet spot" group.

[Reezekeys]

Like I said - it's a compromise. My particular piano's stereo image is not exactly "low-end heavy" on one side and "high end heavy" on the other - it's more a spatial thing; the piano just sounds like it's "around you." There is some of that biasing towards the low & high registers for each side but it's minimal imo.

[DaveMcM]

Of the many DP's -- too many!-- I've played, and owned over the decades, my GEM Promega 3 remains my unqualified favorite. Beautiful APs, EPs and other stuff, lovely keyboard, simple, intuitive interface. Too damn heavy for gigging given what I typically get paid for a gig here in flyover country, but still a joy a home. I have an RP-X which occasionally I've used on gigs, but I'm so lazy that I usually can't be bothered with making the extra-cable connections.

 

Totally agree. I seriously have not played any of the newer digital pianos that would make me want to give up my Promega 3. The dynamic range and smoothness of timbre change/harmonic content of the acoustic pianos along with the keyboard feel just hasn't been beaten, IMO of course. The size and weight on the other hand, well... I'm really enjoying the Casio px560 I picked up.

[The Piano Man]

Of the many DP's -- too many!-- I've played, and owned over the decades, my GEM Promega 3 remains my unqualified favorite. Beautiful APs, EPs and other stuff, lovely keyboard, simple, intuitive interface. Too damn heavy for gigging given what I typically get paid for a gig here in flyover country, but still a joy a home. I have an RP-X which occasionally I've used on gigs, but I'm so lazy that I usually can't be bothered with making the extra-cable connections.

 

Totally agree. I seriously have not played any of the newer digital pianos that would make me want to give up my Promega 3. The dynamic range and smoothness of timbre change/harmonic content of the acoustic pianos along with the keyboard feel just hasn't been beaten, IMO of course. The size and weight on the other hand, well... I'm really enjoying the Casio px560 I picked up.

 

Hello Dave. Do you know, does my RP-X have the same sounds as the Promega? I really love this module and cannot believe it is so old. Holds up so well. I have a Kurzweil PC3x at home and feel like the RP-X matches up really nicely with the Fatar TP40l keyboard action.

[Docbop]

Being an both someone who did sound in the early days and before retiring got back into audio again and I say I don't like stereo for live sound. Even when used for a special effect like panning a crazed guitar or KB solo don't over do it. Unless you're Pink Floyd with quadraphonic PA and playing only in circular theaters it is cheating people in the audience. Yes, I went to see/hear Pink Floyd when they did that tour. The space is too big for the stereo image and most the time sounds like there isn't enough of instrument du jour because it's panned to far to one side. I came up in the day of live sound was about getting the stage sound out to the whole room. To many of today's live mixer treat live sound like they are trying to mix an album. Plus the audience doesn't care, as much as musicians want to thing they do they don't. The audience just wants to hear/feel the beat and the singer(s) and they are happy and if a club then they want to dance.

 

So I vote no to stereo live sound, I just want to hear everyone playing at their proper level for the genre.

[Reezekeys]

To be clear, the stereo vs mono piano issue for live sound has zero to do with a particular sound source panned anywhere â at least it doesn't with me. Maybe I'm in another world with my VIs which I've been playing exclusively for about 15 years. A stereo piano sample, to me, is a close-miked sample that has the "dimension" that you experience when you sit at the piano - the "soundstage." This requires stereo to sound decent, imo. It's not about different notes coming from different locations in the stereo field! I know what you're talking about with soundperson "producer" types that might want to mix a show like it's a studio date â that's not what I'm talking about here!

 

And for the record, in my last seven years of touring â playing venues from stale-beer-smelling rock clubs to concert halls like Royal Albert Hall and Festival Hall in London, and a few of the Blue Note jazz clubs as well as other smaller theatres, outdoor amphitheaters and casinos, almost every place's PA was stereo. AAMOF I can only remember two venues in seven years with a mono system: a rock club somewhere in North Carolina whose name I forgot, and the Catalina Bar and Grill jazz club in Los Angeles.

[AnotherScott]

A stereo piano sample, to me, is a close-miked sample that has the "dimension" that you experience when you sit at the piano - the "soundstage." This requires stereo to sound decent, imo. It's not about different notes coming from different locations in the stereo field!

True, but if they close miked the piano from a left and right perspective (speaking from the player's point of view), then the left mic will pick up much more of the bottom note strings than the right mic, and the right mic will pick up much more of the higher note strings than the left mic. So if you listen to just one side or the other, you'll still hear everything, but one will be biased toward the higher strings and one will be biased toward the lower strings. If you listen to the typical DP in headphones, you can hear that the low notes are left dominant and the high notes are right dominant.

[Reezekeys]

True, but if they close miked the piano from a left and right perspective (speaking from the player's point of view), then the left mic will pick up much more of the bottom note strings than the right mic, and the right mic will pick up much more of the higher note strings than the left mic.

 

I set up a layout in Bidule with the NI Grandeur piano I just got (thank you NI 50% sale!) to check this out. Yes, it probably is possible to tell which side is which (especially when A-Bing), but I really think it's not what you might expect (low notes being much louder on the left channel and high notes being louder on the right). Since I have a lot of time on my hands these days, I decided I'll make a short u-tube with some sonic examples so anyone can hear for themselves. I'm really not looking to argue at all - just curious, since I'm mr. stereo and hardly ever listen to my rig in mono. The few times I did convinced me to stay stereo at any cost!

[AnotherScott]

I set up a layout in Bidule with the NI Grandeur piano I just got (thank you NI 50% sale!) to check this out. Yes, it probably is possible to tell which side is which (especially when A-Bing), but I really think it's not what you might expect

I'm sure it can vary with the particular keyboard/VST implementation. But on the boards I've used, if I put headphones on backwards, I can tell pretty quickly, if I'm playing high and low notes.

[Reezekeys]

But on the boards I've used, if I put headphones on backwards, I can tell pretty quickly, if I'm playing high and low notes.

 

Well yea, you're still listening in stereo - I think it would be obvious there. I wanted to listen to the individual L & R channels in mono, to see what they sounded like and what the differences were. At least on my rig with the NI Grandeur, you can tell from the overall tonality of the sound which channel is favoring the low end and which one the high end; however, imo the low notes are not significantly louder when you're listening to the left channel through both ears (and the same holds for the right channel & high notes). When you play in the middle register the differences are even less pronounced, again imo.