Nord C1 vs. C2 as a MIDI controller

[AnotherScott]

First the question: I know the Nord C2 organ has sonic advantages over the C1 (updated rotary, pipe organ, etc,), but when using either board to drive an external clonewheel source (a VST, iOS app, or hardware organ module), are there any advantages of either over the other? Do they both send the high trigger point over MIDI? (I know the C1 does, the C2 manual is not quite as unambiguous.) Any differences in the functionality of the mappable controls or the way Program Changes are handled? Anything at all (besides internal sounds) that could give either of these an advantage over the other when used as a controller?

 

Backstory:

I picked up a C1 not long ago, and really enjoyed returning to the double manual experience. I have drawbars to attach to it, and I kind of like having the LEDs as well, especially in the context of triggering a VST, Gemini module, etc. since I should be able to get the visual feedback/confirmation of my preset changes. I think this should work fine by programming the same registrations into the same locations on both devices (e.g. the Nord patch x has the same drawbar settings as VST patch x). Ideally, the external sound source would have a way to send out its individual drawbar settings over MIDI when a preset is recalled, but I don't think anyone does that, which is a shame, as it would make those boards with LEDs or moving faders instantly better controllers! (Besides Nords, the Kurzweil Forte, Vox Continental, and Dexibell J7 come to mind, along with some soundless controllers.) But programming the same settings into both should be a reasonable workaround to get the LED benefits. And when I do want the real drawbar experience, one set of drawbars is enough for me, though there's enough panel space for two if I wanted.

 

Anyway, I expect to stick with the C1. I'm just a little tempted to keep my eyes open for a C2 for the better on-board organ sound when I just want to turn it on and play, but any subtle difference in how they function as controllers could persuade me more one way or the other.

[analogman1]

Just curious...is there a MIDI CC# that represents "high trigger point"? I suppose I should just google it, but if anyone knows, please chime in...

[Franz Schiller]

I had the C1 and currently have the C2...actually two of them, albeit they're in storage. It's been so long that I can barely remember the differences.

 

I used these EXTENSIVELY for controlling external gear, mostly synths, and that has huge advantages, like having three zones in close immediate proximity.

 

One thing to note is that if you want to use these to control soft synths in a DAW and record MIDI info for sequencing, the C1 or C2 are pretty awful actually. You can't put it in External mode, and then loop it through the DAW, back to the organ to control the organ sound. It just won't work. I recall being able to make it happen with a kludgy setup, but it was kind of a pain, requiring lots of MIDI splitting and merging.

 

For controlling external synths, its fine, but you need to turn on External control in a setting; if you don't, it defaults to maximum velocity. Also, weirdly, one of my C2s would also retain the external control setting (allowing velocity sensitivity) while the other C2 would reset every power down to maximum velocity. I tried trouble shooting this with various OS changes, factory reset, everything, and it still has this behavior.

 

So I *think* what you mean by "high trigger point" is the nature of its velocity sensitivity. With velocity at max or not, it still retains that "feel" of an organ, it terms of triggering a note, even on a synth of some sort. It took me a long long time to play subtle velocity sensitive stuff with the C1/C2 as a controller. So to answer your question, I think its yes. And I recall the feel being identical between the C1 and C2.

 

One last thing....at one time I had a Moog MP-201 pedal, which could send out LFO info over MIDI. Once for fun, I had it send out some fast LFO data to the drawbar MIDI CCs on the Nord C1. And I recall it worked fairly well. I then tried it on the Nord C2, and the C2 did not respond very well...it seemed to choke and get overwhelmed by the data. Granted, the LFO was cranking along pretty fast, so kind of not a fair challenge. But interesting to know.

 

Anyway, to conclude, in terms of MIDI controller abilities, it probably is not worth it to upgrade to a C2. If the B3 model is important to you, then yeah, there's a mild bit of improvement. And theres the pipe organ added, which is cool if you're into it.

 

Hope some of that helps!

[mate stubb]

Just curious...is there a MIDI CC# that represents "high trigger point"? I suppose I should just google it, but if anyone knows, please chime in...

 

No. Midi key messages are not CC# at all, but have their own separate message name. Key On carries velocity and key number information, while Key Off carries release velocity and key number information. The receiving instrument has no concept of high or low trigger points.

 

When the sending instrument sends the Key On message as soon as the top sensor is activated, that's considered high trigger, and the velocity info attached is meaningless because it cannot be sensed. When the Key On message is sent from the bottom sensor, the velocity is derived from the time difference between upper and lower sensor activation and is correctly sent. That's considered low trigger.

[AnotherScott]

Just curious...is there a MIDI CC# that represents "high trigger point"? I suppose I should just google it, but if anyone knows, please chime in...

No. I suppose a given manufacturer could implement sysex or some other proprietary way to set that parameter via MIDI, but it's not one of the standard MIDI commands.

 

 

 

For controlling external synths, its fine, but you need to turn on External control in a setting; if you don't, it defaults to maximum velocity. Also, weirdly, one of my C2s would also retain the external control setting (allowing velocity sensitivity) while the other C2 would reset every power down to maximum velocity. I tried trouble shooting this with various OS changes, factory reset, everything, and it still has this behavior.

Yes, I saw in the C2 manual that the velocity-over-MIDI setting is not remembered between restarts, so I'm surprised that worked on even one of yours! Are you sure it wasn't the C1 where you didn't have to set it every time? Because that is indeed one of the differences I found between the two in the manual.

 

The C2 manual does say there's a setting which controls whether fixed or variable velocity is sent over MIDI, but nowhere does it say specifically that, when in fixed mode, it uses the high trigger point, so I was looking for some confirmation of that. There are indeed boards where you can have a fixed velocity sent from a low trigger point. I doubt Nord would implement it this way, but I'd still like to be sure. The C1 docs are clear and it behaves just as I'd expect, but the settings for this are not the same between the C1 and C2, and the C2 docs are not as unambigious as the C1 docs.

 

So I *think* what you mean by "high trigger point" is the nature of its velocity sensitivity.

The two things are related, but not identical. High trigger point means the sound is triggered high in the key's travel. High trigger never has velocity sensitivity. Low trigger usually has velocity sensitivity, but doesn't have to.

[Heartbeat]

I use a C2 as a controller to trigger external SampleTank sounds on my IPad Mini 2. It's been a while since I configured the C2, but I'm pretty sure I had to disable the high-trigger point in order for the Sample Tank to see the velocity being transmitted from the C2. Otherwise, it just sees every note at 127 level.

 

Hope this helps. Also, using a Midi Solutions box, I am able to control volume on some patches using the Nord / Yamaha FC7 foot controller. That was a bonus I wasn't expecting.

 

Steve

[AnotherScott]

I'm pretty sure I had to disable the high-trigger point in order for the Sample Tank to see the velocity being transmitted from the C2.

Yes. Every board works that way. High trigger point never sends different velocities. Velocity is calculated from the time it takes the key to travel from the high sensor to the low sensor. If you trigger from the high sensor, you're triggering before the keyboard has a chance to calculate what the velocity would be.

[AnotherScott]

For anyone following this who may be interested, I happened to find this difference: The C2 adds a parameter to alter the drawbutton speed. This might actually be a negative. I remember having that option on my old Electro 3 and not liking it... in Slow mode, it took too long to "push" or "pull" a drawbar setting all the way in or out, but fast mode was SO fast that anything OTHER than all the way in/out was nearly impossible, even just a quick tap would move it a lot. On the non-adjustable C1, it operates fast enough to get the bar fully in or out sufficiently fast, but you can also use quick taps to move it just a little at a time. This additional parameter in the C2 and Electro 3/4 seems to have been subsequently removed from the Electro 5 and 6, maybe they came to the same conclusion I did, that one always-usable setting is better than two frustrating settings. (Not that I know for sure that the rate on the C1 is or is not identical to the rate--or one of the available rates--on any of the other models. But I do find it usable, and better than my old E3 was.)

 

I had the C1 and currently have the C2...actually two of them, albeit they're in storage. It's been so long that I can barely remember the differences.

Franz, fancy meeting you here, just the man I want to talk to. ;-) As you say, it's so long ago you may barely remember, but I came across a post of yours at https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-c1-c2-c2d-organ-forum-f13/nord-c1-v-nord-c2d-t8038.html where you said the MIDI implementation on the C2 was better than on the C1. Do you happen to remember what you were referring to? From a quick look at the manuals, I can't say anything jumped out at me as a significant difference in their MIDI functionalities, but I could easily have missed something.

[cgiles]

I have a C1 midi'ed to my Legend EXP. Half-moon, pedals, and exp. pedal, of course. It's like the C1 and Legend EXP were made for each other. Everything works perfectly. Of course I still have my KeyB Mark 111 which, in my opinion, still sounds better.

[ShadowMan]

I played a C1 for many years, often with an R&B/Soul band. Since I only needed piano on one or two song per gig with them, sometimes I"d just leave the piano home and midi up to a piano module. I configured the top manual to control it... and it worked out quite well. I could still do organ on the lower manual.

 

I sold the C1 because it was just too heavy for me to transport as often as I needed to - and really do miss it. I just loved the action and feel...

[AnotherScott]

I sold the C1 because it was just too heavy for me to transport as often as I needed to - and really do miss it. I just loved the action and feel...

Yeah, if I gig with it, it will be the rare special occasion. But at least if I want to, I think its 33 lbs may be the lightest dual manual "drawbar" organ ever made...?

[Franz Schiller]

I had the C1 and currently have the C2...actually two of them, albeit they're in storage. It's been so long that I can barely remember the differences.

Franz, fancy meeting you here, just the man I want to talk to. ;-) As you say, it's so long ago you may barely remember, but I came across a post of yours at https://www.norduserforum.com/nord-c1-c2-c2d-organ-forum-f13/nord-c1-v-nord-c2d-t8038.html where you said the MIDI implementation on the C2 was better than on the C1. Do you happen to remember what you were referring to? From a quick look at the manuals, I can't say anything jumped out at me as a significant difference in their MIDI functionalities, but I could easily have missed something.

 

Wow, well that's a pretty impressive pull!

 

I might have been referring to some of the things I discussed earlier in the thread (like it's "external" settings) but I wonder if there was something else? I recall being very frustrated trying to loop the C1 or C2 through my DAW and control modules (and eventually stopped). I vageuly recall not being able to control velocity at all? Maybe the C1 was better than the C2 at that? Hmmm....