So long and thanks for all the fish!

[Lee Tyler]

If you like your avatar so much, then at least make it smaller

That should be a rule, let alone common courtesy. ---Lee Tee.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Actually I have suggested several times that I think the attention people have given it is ridiculous. Other people keep brining it up. I have suggested several times that we all move along and forget it.

But the crux of the problem is your willingness to keep subjecting people to it despite the willingness of Henry, Nawledge, Willie and others to have a respectful dialog with you about why they found the image very distressing. Had I been you, and been ignorant of what the image represented to people I considered friends, I would have removed it after talking to them. As it is, it's hard for them to "move along and forget it" when they might have to see that picture EVERY time they read a thread in which you've posted. Yes, they could turn off the avatar feature, but that's not really the issue.

 

You know, you never did answer the question about whether you would remove your guitar avatar if someone said they found it offensive.

Again, the issue is context. If I were to join a rain forest activists' forum and use a guitar avatar, I might not have thought about the implications of that, and if some valued members of the community pointed out to me that a guitar was not only irrelevant to saving the rain forest, but causing distress to some of the valued contributors that I considered friends, then yes, you bet your ass I'd remove it. Whether I thought they were being "overly sensitive" or not (and I might very well tell them that I thought they were), I would not want to continually call attention to myself and potentially drive away valued contributors at the expense of the forum serving its intended purpose.

 

On a music forum, people should expect to see avatars of musical instruments and therefore I would think anyone who said that an avatar of a well known guitar offended them, was just being a troll. I will add that most of my non-musician rainforest-activist friends are aware that I play guitar and many of them have seen me perform. Some of them are what might be described as overly sensitive about what materials are used in the manufacture of such things as musical instruments, clothing etc. And yes, some of them annoy me because I think they go too far with that (even though I am a rainforest advocate myself). Yet, none of them has ever complained specifically about my guitar. I think you are aware on some level that the two situations are not really comparable, and I think your question is therefore nothing but more trolling.

[doc taz]

Lee sez: "On a music forum, people should expect to see avatars of musical instruments and therefore I would think anyone who said that an avatar of a well known guitar offended them, was just being a troll."

 

Yes, but don't forget performers who do turntables, and other weird objects just to make some noise. And singers, too. (In the interest of full disclosure, my current avatar is a performer in the music genre of "electronica". She's the person in the afterchain project. I'm just a satisfied customer.)

 

I realize that's subjective, but anyhow, yes, Mr. Dog is getting on my nerves now. It has nothing to do with his choice of "advertising".

 

If he chooses to put this silly farce of an issue behind him, then I will be the most grateful person on the face of this Earth. If not, then he should expect more harsh commentary against him.

 

Come on dude, lighten up!

[antimatter]

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

 

And frankly, many are getting tired of the ridiculous extremes with which people will seek to exercise thier racial "bravado". Most of these people have not even been tramatized, terrorized, humiliated, or made fun of by "Uncle George" directly. They are repeating what they have read or heard. They are using someone else's experience as their reasons. They are holding on to a part of the past that always keeps them warm and comfy in the role of the victim.

Did you read Henry's last post on the Cosby thread or what!!?

-------------------------------------------------

 

This whole thing sucks. Henry Robinett shared some great stuff about music and life. Thank you Sir.

[linwood]

Yum Yum, Eatum up...

[Lee Flier]

Yeah exactly, antimatter, Hound Dog has chosen to ignore the very real and affecting examples of racism that Henry, Willie, Nawledge and others have put forward. It's one thing to disagree with an organization like the NAACP, who might at least appear to be "faceless" people whose purpose is to promote a political agenda or play a power game. But when real individual people who are anything but "victims" share their actual life experiences and they are ignored, one has little choice but to call Hound Dog's real motivations into question.

[Rog]

(sigh)

 

Thanks for all those words, I'm sure they took a while to write.

 

They don't change a thing though.

 

Look, Henry is a good guy, an excellent musician and someone who I've learned a lot from on everything from mic techniques to race issues.

 

You strike me as someone who insists on sticking to some principle even though most people here wish you wouldn't.

 

I'm sure you wish to appear as a highly principled individual who knows his own mind and is willing to stand up for your beliefs.

 

With every word you type you shatter that illusion.

 

Look, I don't give a shit about who is right, if Henry is justified or not, I've never seen the show and I don't care either way.

 

All I know is that we (and more selfishly I) are losing a nice guy because someone I don't know from Adam has got a hair up his ass and decides it's too much bother to make a few mouse clicks and remove a stupid picture.

 

.... and now I've put it so plainly, please remove the avatar. I don't want to stop hearing what Henry has to say and, if you had any sense, neither would you.

 

OK?

[Dak Lander]

Originally posted by Rog:

All I know is that we (and more selfishly I) are losing a nice guy because someone I don't know from Adam has got a hair up his ass and decides it's too much bother to make a few mouse clicks and remove a stupid picture.

 

.... and now I've put it so plainly, please remove the avatar. I don't want to stop hearing what Henry has to say and, if you had any sense, neither would you.

 

OK?

An absolutely perfect way of putting many of our feelings into words Rog.

 

Thanks.

[kylen]

Fortunately it's a great big World getting 'smaller' thru communications technologies and wider distribution of the arts.

 

Unfortunately for some, the stuff I grew up with, enjoy and which has become a part of my own thread will be offensive to somewhere, sometime, somehow to some degree - or it will not be offensive to anyone to any degree. That's just how it is and will continue to be till I die off - or my generation dies off. No offense to anyone - but it is assumed certain things raise eyebrows to someone, somewhere...hehe you get it, right ?

 

Maybe making a joke with me as the butt of the thing could better illustrate the point, in fact that's kind of where arrell's head was at earlier (hehe, I know I'm going out on a limb here). Using forms of humor to steer thru the trecherous cliffs and quicksand of a touchy situation goes a long way too ! Even when pure candid, succinct, logical discussion doesn't. Music can do the same thing - this is a MUSIC FORUM by golly people use your gifts, eh ? Don't get sucked under by the quicksand - or manipulated

[Geoff Grace]

You know, I'm a great believer that we are all one and that we all have more in common than we realize.

 

At the same time I recognize that the experience of living in this world is different for a woman than it is for a man and different for minorities than for people of the majority.

 

One thing we all have in common is when we have been victimized, we become sensitized. For example, after having been rear-ended in an auto accident, most drivers will check their rear view mirrors more often.

 

Now imagine what might happen to most of us if we'd been rear-ended many times. Would we drive less often? Would we try to stop our friends from tailgating other cars?

 

If one applies this natural human reaction in the case of racism, how would it apply? Would a forum member who's been the repeated victim of racism want to stay away from people who display images that remind him of that racism? Would he try to explain to his friends the problem with displaying such images?

 

It seems to me that Henry's response is a natural reaction to a hazard he's faced many times in life. Using this analogy, I see Hound Dog as the guy who tailgates and rear-ends other drivers. He doesn't tailgate for any malevolent reason, therefore he doesn't see the harm. He's causing pain, but because he doesn't feel hatred, he won't accept his role in others' suffering.

 

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

I think of these avatars just as I think of "bumper stickers". If Henry wants to leave because he finds some sinister meaning in my "bumper sticker", I can't begin begin to understand that and I will not even try.

Why won't you try? What's wrong with at least trying to understand why he feels that way?

 

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

I think it is silly and I think he is looking for a racial issue where no racial issue is present.

I presume that you mean there is "no racial issue is present" within you. Surely you don't mean to suggest that there is no racial issue is present anywhere? If you acknowledge that a racial issue is present in our society, then perhaps you may understand why Henry might be caused pain by reminders of it.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Barandine Vondenger]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Actually I have suggested several times that I think the attention people have given it is ridiculous. Other people keep brining it up. I have suggested several times that we all move along and forget it.

But the crux of the problem is your willingness to keep subjecting people to it despite the willingness of Henry, Nawledge, Willie and others to have a respectful dialog with you about why they found the image very distressing. Had I been you, and been ignorant of what the image represented to people I considered friends, I would have removed it after talking to them. As it is, it's hard for them to "move along and forget it" when they might have to see that picture EVERY time they read a thread in which you've posted. Yes, they could turn off the avatar feature, but that's not really the issue.

 

You know, you never did answer the question about whether you would remove your guitar avatar if someone said they found it offensive.

Again, the issue is context. If I were to join a rain forest activists' forum and use a guitar avatar, I might not have thought about the implications of that, and if some valued members of the community pointed out to me that a guitar was not only irrelevant to saving the rain forest, but causing distress to some of the valued contributors that I considered friends, then yes, you bet your ass I'd remove it. Whether I thought they were being "overly sensitive" or not (and I might very well tell them that I thought they were), I would not want to continually call attention to myself and potentially drive away valued contributors at the expense of the forum serving its intended purpose.

 

On a music forum, people should expect to see avatars of musical instruments and therefore I would think anyone who said that an avatar of a well known guitar offended them, was just being a troll. I will add that most of my non-musician rainforest-activist friends are aware that I play guitar and many of them have seen me perform. Some of them are what might be described as overly sensitive about what materials are used in the manufacture of such things as musical instruments, clothing etc. And yes, some of them annoy me because I think they go too far with that (even though I am a rainforest advocate myself). Yet, none of them has ever complained specifically about my guitar. I think you are aware on some level that the two situations are not really comparable, and I think your question is therefore nothing but more trolling.

NO LEE you ain't right at all with that line of thought..

You try to explain yor views and done talked you'sef stupid.. tsk,tsk. I expected more out of you .. ]]

and I think your question is therefore nothing but more trolling

therefor????

WHAT FOR???

WHAT HE IS ASKING YOU SILLY GIRL IS: what if you took it off for VALID reasons, (which you must have) and then someone else, had VALID reasons, why you must remove your avatar for them .. So you do; NOW what happens when yet someone else has perfectly VALID reasons for wanting your avatar OFF.

CENSORSHIP

where will it stop. it won't..

. that avatar is REALLY not hurting a soul. it may offend one or two like a bad swampsmell or rundown house. one or two may carry hurt and the burden of shame or guilt or insanity to the point where they cannot stand the avatar. ..

but then I like old farm houses and I like country air..

I think the avatar is funny.. .

and thats why I am unable to keep posting to these forums. Most of you are cold blooded replicas of your moms and dads and thank you're bold and original, yet to me you seem tired and made up like a movie script that was not so well written.

and so I must leave you untill the DRAMA has been quashed and squashed and is no longer being rehashed and unleashed and allowed to hurt sensitive folkes like me.

Oh I will miss you and fear not brave forumites. My thoughts will be of you and about you and for you and to you..

so to reiterate my position on why I must leave the forum and by default all you goode, not so goode and plain bad folkes,would take too long in one posting so I need to break this up into a serial of sorts giving my opines and thoughts and orders yes orders..

First we need to get rid of someones avatar!.

who can we make suffer till they get rid of their avatar?

we'll just gang up and brow beat them and CONVINCE the poor sucker that for the greater goode he must give up the avatar?

then iffen we don't like the NEW one we'll make him give that up too. ahahahaha .

we do this and I stay..

or I go..

stay, go?

awwww too much drama~!I leave!

I will miss you all!

[Hound Dog]

Originally posted by Geoff Grace:

 

If

 

It seems to me that Henry's response is a natural reaction to a hazard he's faced many times in life. Using this analogy, I see Hound Dog as the guy who tailgates and rear-ends other drivers. He doesn't tailgate for any malevolent reason, therefore he doesn't see the harm. He's causing pain, but because he doesn't feel hatred, he won't accept his role in others' suffering.

 

Nope, I don't tailgate and I have never rear-ended another car. I'm the guy who leaves several car lenghts between me and the car ahead. Very often other drivers slip in between me and the car ahead, but I do not let it ruin my life. I do not hurl insults at them, or chase them down to give them the finger like a lot of drivers I see. I refuse to let it bother me. I have better things to do than to let that hate kind of hate rule my life. That's just me.

[Hound Dog]

Thank you for your input, arellspencer.

[Hound Dog]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

causes me to have the opinion that you're a selfish boor

I won't agrue that with you. A selfish boor is mostly what these forums attract! (oh come on, can't we all at least laugh at ourselves!)

[Dasher]

Henry, I do wish you wouldn't let this bone-headed fool (pun definitely intended) get to you. You're too good a player (we've jammed a couple of times when I was in Sac for a conference, and I really enjoyed your playing, though I get real worried about earth grounding and bare feet while playing guitar!)

 

But I understand and respect your position. Good luck, God bless, etc. and if you get down to Monterey, bring your ax and come sit in. Thu-Fri-Sat Monterey Beach Hotel (on the beach at the Del Rey Oaks exit), Mon-Tue-Wed Lodge at Pebble Beach, 6:30-10 all gigs.

 

And come back in a while and see if things have changed. Maybe he'll grow up. or go away. In his own words, he ain't nothin' but a hound dog.

 

Hound Dog, i wish you could see this from another poswition. I think I understand your reasons for not changing your avatar, but it really IS demeaning, whether you recognise it or not. If you don't get it, then so be it, maybe you will when (if) you mature. If it's a deliberate insult, then may God curse you and all racist fools. The world has enough problems even if we were all trying to be good to each other, without a bunch of racist irrelevant bullshit. This just raises further barriers, the last thing we need as we go into the political hellhole we call the 21st century...

 

Dasher

[Prague]

Hound Dog,

 

You seem level-headed enough to me. Some people on this site confuse public access with public control. Oddly enough, music is supposed to be about expression, yet they want limits on expression in this forum. The next time we read complaints about Clear Channel, we know they would do the same thing if they had "control".

 

Plus, this site is supposedly about music, instruments, gear, etc. Anybody who has enough vested interest in this site as to fret (!) about a fricken' avatar has got to find something better to do.

 

fuggedaboutit.

[Hound Dog]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

[qb]

But the crux of the problem is your willingness to keep subjecting people to it despite the willingness of Henry, Nawledge, Willie and others to have a respectful dialog with you about why they found the image very distressing.

I am not on the offense here. It has been repeatedly pointed out that they can turn off the avatars at will. I am not subjecting them to anything, they can easily control it. Your helping to make my point about people trying to oppress their opinions of others by saying so. There are two ways to solve the problem. Either I can remove the avatar, or those who are offended can turn it off. The only solution some people see is for me to remove it. They are so bent on making someone else act the way they want them to act that they are overlooking the simplest solution.

 

Henry's dialog was brief, but I have found many of his posts to be quite insightful. I actually enjoyed the dialog with Sweet Wille. There is a man who can communicate with somebody and give his opinion without resorting to childish language, even when he disagrees with you. He may hate my avatar and he may hate my guts, but I'll offer to have a beer with him anyday (If he drinks). Nawledge? Not much there. He plainly says he has a racial agenda. He seems to look to everything he can to point out his racial cause. I disagree with you when you say his dialog has been respectful. His dialogs have been laced with profanity and clearly demostrate hateful thoughts, mine have not. On the dialog that I can actually make sense of, he just says he knows I am racist because of a picture I have posted. Not much substance there.

[Hound Dog]

Originally posted by Prague:

Hound Dog,

 

You seem level-headed enough to me. Some people on this site confuse public access with public control. Oddly enough, music is supposed to be about expression, yet they want limits on expression in this forum. The next time we read complaints about Clear Channel, we know they would do the same thing if they had "control".

 

Plus, this site is supposedly about music, instruments, gear, etc. Anybody who has enough vested interest in this site as to fret (!) about a fricken' avatar has got to find something better to do.

 

fuggedaboutit.

Thanks, Prague. It appears that you may have acutally taken the time to read what I say rather than just judge me by the look of my avatar, Something that obviously not many have done.

 

Its odd that these people who are judging me for the appearance of my avatar are complaining about racism!

[Lee Flier]

Fercryinoutloud, some of you people slay me. If you can't tell the difference between "censorship" and being asked to have some simple compassion for a friend who's upset, then I feel sorry for you. No one is calling to "ban" Hound Dog's avatar, including me, and I'm a moderator so if I really wanted to do that, I could. I'm perfectly willing to stand up for your freedom to make an ass of yourself, but that still doesn't mean I (and apparently quite a few other people) don't think you're making an ass of yourself. You can do whatever you want with that information, Hound Dog, but I'm done trying to explain it to you. Your decision speaks for itself.

[sign]

Amen to that my dear sister!

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

Originally posted by Geoff Grace:

It seems to me that Henry's response is a natural reaction to a hazard he's faced many times in life. Using this analogy, I see Hound Dog as the guy who tailgates and rear-ends other drivers. He doesn't tailgate for any malevolent reason, therefore he doesn't see the harm. He's causing pain, but because he doesn't feel hatred, he won't accept his role in others' suffering.

 

Nope, I don't tailgate and I have never rear-ended another car. I'm the guy who leaves several car lenghts between me and the car ahead. Very often other drivers slip in between me and the car ahead, but I do not let it ruin my life. I do not hurl insults at them, or chase them down to give them the finger like a lot of drivers I see. I refuse to let it bother me. I have better things to do than to let that hate kind of hate rule my life. That's just me.

Hound Dog, I'm not saying that I think you're a tailgater. It was an analogy! If you seriously thought that's what I meant, you might want to re-read my post!

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Hound Dog]

If you seriously thought that's what I meant, you might want to re-read my post!

 

Best,

 

Geoff[/QB]

Look, and you may find an analogy in my response.

[Kaz]

Hound Dog, even though you say the picture is not racist to you, if you are a fan enough of that show to want to use a picture from it, you must have at least been aware of the racist elements of The Little Rascals before you started using it, right?

[Hound Dog]

The irony is that while "some" people insist that the Little Rascals were promoting racism ("some people insist that everything is racist), many people now acknowledge that the show was ahead of its time with regard to race relations. I believe this to be true of the music industry in general.

[Kaz]

Are you saying you were aware of the racist elements? You didn't really answer.

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Hound Dog:

If you seriously thought that's what I meant, you might want to re-read my post!

 

Best,

 

Geoff[/QB]

Look, and you may find an analogy in my response.

If your response is an analogy of your interaction with Henry and other posters then I don't see the part about how you affected them. All I see is how they don't affect you. Is that all you see?

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Rog]

Oh for fuck's sake.

 

It may br racist, it may not. Henry cares about that, we care about Henry.

 

Do you understand that?

 

Another thing you may not understand:

 

These forums thrive on a sense of community. There are people here I've never met and yet I care about them. I hope the feeling is reciprocated.

 

In order for this to take place there has to be give and take. In order to learn anything in this life you have to be flexible and accommodating.

 

In this spirit, and for one last time, will you please change the damn avatar?

 

Please?

[Kaz]

Btw, Hound Dog, though you are trying to make some sort of point here, you really can't win. Once the "gang" is against you, you become a pariah. There is freedom of thought and behavior, as long as you play by the rules of those who have the strongest foot hold here. Just like in the real world! It's very much a power trip. Big fish, little pond. And even if you do "win", what have you won? Not much.

[Anderton]

<

 

In order for this to take place there has to be give and take. In order to learn anything in this life you have to be flexible and accommodating.>>

 

Very true.

 

I've been following this and really don't know what to say. My personal feeling has always been that freedom of speech is ultra-cool not just because it allows people to state their own opinions, but because it lets people make fools of themselves when needed.

 

My favorite example of freedom of speech at work was the Nazi march in Skokie, Illinois (predominantly Jewish area near Chicago) that took place many years ago. Before the march happened, there was all kind of hue and cry about the potential for trouble, the extra cops that would be needed, the offended sensibilities of the inhabitants, and there were many efforts made from a legal basis to stop the march. None of them succeeded, and the march occurred.

 

And you know what? The big, bad Nazi party had a few morons show up. That was it. No big demonstrations, no fights, just a few pathetic people marching down the street and proving, once and for all, their ideology bankruptcy and impotence.

 

If they HADN'T been allowed to march, they would have been martyrs, in a sense. They wouldn't have been exposed as nobodies. But they took advantage of freedom of speech, and used that power to essentially say "Hey look at us! We're losers!"

 

Sothat's why I'm not about to remove HD's avatar, because a) I don't think it really matters in the grand scheme of things, and b) because he has chosen this way to express himself. We're all adult enough to form our own opinions about his actions, or lack thereof, and make our own judgements as to the value and validity of his comments and avatar. HE can say what he wants; WE can form our opinions about what he says. That's the way it works around here.

 

And Henry, we're also all adult enough to form opinions regarding your value to the forum. I've already stated mine, which seems to be the majority viewpoint.

 

As to taking a break from the forums, sure, why not. Sometimes even I disappear for a few days.

 

Don't take all this too seriously, people. It's just performance art, and a party at my place in cyberspace.

 

Speaking of which...Lee, meet you at the pool in an hour. Bring Lyle and Christopher, okay? Try to get there before 8 PM, that's when happy hour ends and drink prices go up.

[Hound Dog]

Originally posted by zzzzzzzzz:

Are you saying you were aware of the racist elements? You didn't really answer.

Sorry, I posted it and then saw your question.

 

Yes I am aware that some people think the Little Rascals had race issues. I do not subscribe to it. And I am not going to base my decisions on it or change my behavior because of it. People have also made claims about Microsoft, OutKast, Soul Plane, Sony, Gilligan's Island, The Banana Splits, GI Joe, Gone With The Wind, VH1, Aunt Jemima, the Republican Party, Target Stores, Dell Computers, the NFL, the list jsut goes on and on. I have not wavered in my support for these organizations, movies or TV shows, etc. despite people's claims and I will not change my behavior with or about these shows and organizations simply because somebody thinks they have an issue. I've already been down the road enough to see that the people who start to jump at every mention of racism soon find themselves constantly jumping and never really satisfying anyone, including themselves.