Will we ever stop treating women like this

[videoeditor1]

I dunno. In the audio world, there's MANY females I've worked with, and they are as gangbusters as any one of the guys. A few that stand out..... Rebecca. I think she's out with Busta or M. Miller.... Keiko. Handled monitors at the Blue Note (Osaka) for nine years... Dayschia...I don't know where she is (Europe?) but I know she's flying a speaker rig or driving a truck or pulling a synth down to get to that defective LCD display..... Back in '96, we had a "chick" (Sorry Valky! :) ) come on the job at the computer repair place we used to work. Tall. Legs from the floor up to her NECK...Golden blonde kinda girl, very pretty. After she proved herself competent, I could care less if her blouse was threee sizes too tight. Doing the job, and maintaining a good rapport with the customer is tops on my list....(Honesty, hygeine, reliable, efficient...etc etc...) I've had a few female bosses. Some were wishy washy, some could knock out a bull with one punch. I've also had different types of male managers and manglers... For me, I always try to take a few minutes/hours/whatever to assess what (as in potential, personality) I'm given to work with. Big guy with buck teeth? Small chick with big tits? Yeah, I'm gonna stare for 5 seconds, then after that, it probably won't matter. Still got a job to do..... NYC Drew

[D. Gauss]

[quote]Originally posted by dino321: [b] In my 30 years experience I'd guess 90% of the female musicians I've known don't want to learn about technical aspects or how to use gear.[/b][/quote] i guess that would make all the guys in my band at least 90% female! :) . my guys are all complete BONEHEADs when it comes to anything technical, i.e. setting up a simple p.a., changing a tube in an amp, using a cellphone, etc... to them it just isn't as important as playing and there's really nothing wrong with that. on the other hand, i recorded this all-girl metal band from russia who were total gearheads. they rocked. -d. gauss

[Danny M]

I agree with Dino. It's not an assumption of ability or inability at all, rather, it's based on experience. Back in the theater (ah, the good old days) we had virtually no female techs who wanted to handle audio or lighting consoles, or be electricians. (They mostly wanted to do stage management.) Could they have acquired the knowledge and skills to be board ops or electricians? Absolutely, and I don't think that any of us guys ever thought otherwise. They just didn't seem to be interested. (In fact, they treated those of us who loved gear as somewhat freakish, though relatively lovable creatures.) :D At the Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences, there were very few women in the program. My experiences lead me to believe that they just aren't signing up in the numbers that males are, not that they have less aptitude. In the end though, I think that these kinds of experiences where one assumes incorrectly need to be taken as honest mistakes that are nothing personal. I think the assumptions are made for the same reason that most folks assume that pin 2 is hot. It's entirely innocent, and based on nothing more than running across a vast majority of cables made that way. -Danny

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by dino321: [b]My company's (Compaq) ratio is about 10 to 1 male to female in technical jobs.[/b][/quote] Yeah, and look at the ratio on this board. It's more like 1000 to 1. Kinda drives the point home. [ 01-07-2002: Message edited by: Dan South ]

[Mr Darling]

cynicism coming in.... if you are sensitive lease skip this post.... [quote] [b]I don't think its prejudice. . I think its common experience. ...... It seems logical to me to assume that a female singer didn't produce her own stuff.[/b][/quote] So it is also fair to assume that if a rubbery was done a black man is behind it? If a kid get bitten up by cops he asked for it and if a record company steall all our royalties we deserve it? Even if all the women singer you meet choose not to do their on prudoction doesn't mean that the ones you don't meet choose the same. Beware of logical assumpation - that's prejudice. And for NYC Drew , couldn't said it better - you go sister :D Danny

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by Danny M: [b] In the end though, I think that these kinds of experiences where one assumes incorrectly need to be taken as honest mistakes that are nothing personal. I think the assumptions are made for the same reason that most folks assume that pin 2 is hot. It's entirely innocent, and based on nothing more than running across a vast majority of cables made that way. [/b][/quote] Bingo. I agree, getting bent out of shape about stuff like that isn't necessary. Even I could understand your point above when I was getting started as a guitarist in L.A. There were practically no female guitarists and those that did exist, were mostly of the "I can play three chords and look cute in a miniskirt" variety. So it's not like I could blame anybody for having prejudices. I remember calling about an audition for a band one time when I was about 17, and the conversation went something like this: Me: Hey, I'm calling about your ad for a guitar player. I think I might really be a good fit from what I could tell. Guy (hestitantly): Welll... I appreciate your calling and all but... frankly, we're looking for a man. Me: Well... I understand. I really don't blame you, I get fed up too with all these lame Hollywood chicks that don't work at playing and then wonder why nobody takes them seriously. But listen, even if you don't want me in your band, it sounds like we're into all the same music. I'd like to stay in touch and check you guys out sometime when you start gigging. Guy: Well, that'd be cool! So, you're into the Stones and all the Brit Invasion stuff? Me: Yeah! (enthusiastic conversation about Brit Invasion rock bands follows) Guy: Well, now I'm just curious to hear you play. I guess it couldn't hurt if you came down to a rehearsal and jammed with us. I guess I don't need to say that I got the gig. And I guess I don't need to say that if I'd gotten all pissed off at the guy for saying they didn't want a girl in the band, I wouldn't have gotten the gig and thus it would have been a self fulfilling prophecy... --Lee

[Philip OKeefe]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b] Did I mention that it's hard? Yes, I did, didn't I. Ahem! [ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Dan South ][/b][/quote] Oops... after all the talk about "racks" underwear and eyes, you'd better consider rephrasing this line Dan! ;) AS far as women in audio (or any other field for that matter), it's plain and simple discrimination, and there's no excuse for it whatsoever. I wish there were more women represented in our field - they are over half the population, and anything that excludes them is only hurting the industry by denying us a LOT of talent. Lee and Valky are only the tip of a very large iceberg... [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com

[D. Gauss]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr Darling: [b] So it is also fair to assume that if a rubbery was done a black man is behind it? [/b][/quote] no, i would assume that a large pencil eraser was behind it..... -d. gauss

[natty fred]

errr, umm, where to start.... Lee you are incredibly lucky, and like you I have never let it stop me, I just get on and learn what I need to. I think I am now mostly immune to the sexist stuff, but I am still amazed sometimes. The best one I've had recently was at a well know London jazz club where a meal is served to all the bands. The 4 of us in the band were all at the same table and the waitress comes over to take our order, she went round all the guys and started to walk off, when I said "hey! I'm in the band too!" waitress "oh really!" me "yeah, women can play instruments too you know" waitress "I'm sorry, I didn't realize" me "what?, that women can't play instruments?" waitress "oh no, that you are in the band" me "yeah, can I order now?" the rest of the band sat there gob smacked.... you gotta laugh... Usually it's cool, they see me struggle in with me rig, but this one must have though I was one very dedicated girlfriend: eek: Though I still also get the "are you the singer? quite a bit…. I guess I've been playing long enough not to let it worry me, but when I meet new people and they ask what I do and I tell them, nearly all say "oh really". I don't see this as an assumption that I can't do it, more just a reflection that there just aren't many of us doin' it. Why aren't there that many women doing it? dunno... part of it is just aptitude, none of my women friends are into audio stuff, including the one chick DJ I know, but all of my men friends are, when the conversation turns to gear speak, female eyes seem to glaze over. (I could go on and on here, but I’ll just check some of the other threads….) peace, natty [img]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/fk/butterfly.gif[/img]

[Valkyrie Sound]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [QB] That's a very good point. You can make people uncomfortable by OVERESTIMATING them as easily as by UNDERESTIMATING them. Still, I try to overestimate everyone, male OR female. If you treat people like peons, you get peon-level service (and you don't make a lot of friends, either). But if you convey to the lowliest person on the totem pole that you trust and honor THEM and you are relying on THEM to help you, amazing things can happen. Even if they screw up, I still let them off easy. It may inspire them to learn more about the situation so that they can help the next client (etc.) who presents the same problem. QB][/quote] EXACTLY! I can only see assuming someone is knowledgeable rather than ignorant as being an advantage to both parties in this kind of situation. I'm not asking for much... just a different frame of mind when approaching someone. I mean... is it fair to assume every guy at a show is knowledgeable and every woman at the show is ignorant? Isn't that a horrible view of the world?

[Valkyrie Sound]

[quote]Originally posted by Lee Flier: [b] Bingo. I agree, getting bent out of shape about stuff like that isn't necessary.[/b][/quote] I hope by bringing up the topic of women at trade shows that you folks don't get the impression that I'm "bent out of shape". For those folks who know what I've acomplished in my career... well you'd know I don't let this stuff get in the way! :) BUT... I do think the only way to improve a situation like this is to make others AWARE of the problem and find solutions.... discussions like this thread are great. I'm not going to say with a big smile on my face: "Oh.. no...there's nothing wrong... I feel fine about being asked if I'm with Gemini." :rolleyes: [quote]So it's not like I could blame anybody for having prejudices. [/QB][/quote] Indeed... but discussion, learning, and knowledge is the road out of ignorance and prejudice. If we want change... then a little discussion with a large dose of "getting the job done anyway" is the best medicine... wouldn't you agree? :D Valky

[teh dri]

ok i wont flame the peorson who flamed up me i thought id get some advice from someone who knows anyway, all my nephew said was "girls stink" so... nerrrrrrrrr.... girls stink you heard it from the man ps, girls stink. again

[Mr Darling]

Lee , your attitude is admirable (how come you're still single), and it's the only attitude that will work for minority / weaker sex. Only when dealing out of love and understanding you can break those walls. How ever since I'm in the offensive side this time I'm allowed to get pissed. Not that it helps - and not that I actually show them that I get pissed. :D But we most keep fighting those prejudices or they will last forever. Danny

[vintagevibe]

[quote]Originally posted by pokeefe777@msn.com: [b] AS far as women in audio (or any other field for that matter), it's plain and simple discrimination, and there's no excuse for it whatsoever. I wish there were more women represented in our field - they are over half the population, and anything that excludes them is only hurting the industry by denying us a LOT of talent. Lee and Valky are only the tip of a very large iceberg... [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s2/contrib/navigator/usa.gif[/img] Phil O'Keefe Sound Sanctuary Recording Riverside CA http://www.ssrstudio.com pokeefe777@ssrstudio.com[/b][/quote] It is rare that a woman posts on this board. So you are saying that the Musicplayer BBS is discriminating against all the women that don't post here? The fact is that women are way less interested. Do you think that my company is discriminating against women computer technicians? We would love to have more women. They just never apply for the jobs. Most female singers I've met have not been interested in technology. I've met some that are interested and very knowledgeable but that is rare. It's just a fact. The issue is not discrimination but why are women uninterested in technology?

[Valkyrie Sound]

Dino: I KNOW Phil didn't mean to suggest this board is sexist in any way. Chill man... :) This such a sensitive topic... let's be extra sensitive of others and not let the insensitive nature of BBS posts get the best of us. :D Thanks! Valky

[vintagevibe]

[quote]Originally posted by valkyriesound: [b]Dino: I KNOW Phil didn't mean to suggest this board is sexist in any way. Chill man... :) This such a sensitive topic... let's be extra sensitive of others and not let the insensitive nature of BBS posts get the best of us. :D Thanks! Valky[/b][/quote] No chilling is needed. You overreact because you do't understand my post. This was a rhetorical question designed to illustrate a point. Phil is saying that anything that denies us the talent of female technicians is bad. My point is that it is the females themselves denying us their technical talent.

[Lee Flier]

Yeah, that's just it Dino. People can get into these endless arguments about why there aren't more women in technical fields. One argument is to blame society and say we've been conditioned against being interested and that men prevent us from making headway in technical fields. Another is that maybe genetically/biologically/whatever that most women plain old aren't interested. I reject the first argument based on my own personal experience and plenty of others I know. IF a woman is really interested in pursuing a technical field there is no reason why she can't - maybe a few annoying prejudices and hurdles notwithstanding. As for the "conditioning" argument - well guess what? We are ALL "conditioned" by society and/or genes to some extent and that is part of what shapes our personalities. Is that necessarily such a tragedy? Men, for instance, are not "conditioned" to enter certain fields either - there are very few male nurses, for example. Is anybody railing about how the world is losing out on the potential talent of all those men who might have gone into nursing were it not for the constraints of society? There is, after all, a shortage of good nurses. But a man who becomes a nurse is much more likely to get shit from his peers than a woman who becomes an engineer. That seems to be saying that traditionally male-dominated fields are somehow inherently "better" and more desirable than traditionally female-dominated ones. So where's the real prejudice? :) In any case, most people (male or female) do not fit completely within the constraints that society outlines for them. So that means if you have a particular "calling" you have to jump through some hoops, endure some chastisement, deal with some shit to get where you want to go. DUH. That might be because you're female, or black, or gay, or shorter than average or fatter than average or above or below average intelligence, or economically disadvantaged. I know men who'd rather stay home and be house-husbands and raise the kids, and are really good at it, but their wives don't respect them because in the end they judge men by how much money they can earn. So yes there are prejudices, and there are extreme cases of individuals whose lives are wrecked by prejudices. But overall, in America women have it pretty darned good, I can't feel too sorry for us. We CAN do what we want to do, and if most women are uninterested in technical fields and most men are uninterested in nursing or whatever, so what? Let them be interested in whatever they ARE interested in. If they REALLY wanted to do it, they could, as some of us obviously do. And maybe we actually enjoy the challenge of succeeding against the odds. And Valky I never meant to imply that I thought you had an attitude - I think you and natty are fantastic women with great attitudes! - or that we shouldn't discuss these subjects at all - after all I am participating in this discussion. :D I just think I represent a different point of view than most that I see here. And don't get me wrong - prejudices still suck. This just happens to be one that hasn't victimized me much. But, Mr. Darling, you asked why I'm still single. Sometimes I think the lack of prejudice I experience in my career has resulted in prejudices against me as a woman. In other words, guys can relate to me as an equal, but in a lot of cases only if they don't think of me as a woman in the true sense. I can be their best friend or their "sister", but many guys would still rather have a wife or girlfriend who's not involved in their working life at all, and who is a more "typical woman" who admires them from a distance and plays a supporting but uninvolved role, and probably has bigger tits than I do. :) Considering that what I really want is a guy who is a working partner AND a mate, this sucks, IMO. So don't get the idea that I don't suffer at all from prejudice. I guess I just accept that as part of life if you are following an unconventional path, and keep striving to find those opportunities and those individuals who think outside the box. --Lee

[vintagevibe]

Lee Flier, Clearly and eloquently stated.

[Brittanylips]

QUOTE]Originally posted by DRiLoad: [b]you are an idiot then my post was in regards to general HUMAN intelligence 19/20 of my students ask how to convert midi to audio. yes, MIDI TO AUDIO! complete with "!!!!!!!" 2/10 of my students are female very few people understand signal routing immediately, nearly NONE will understand midi in an hour, as well as all the things i listed in an hour somehow, i think its very obvious im in awe of this girl's ability, and it has nothing to do with your very boring restaurant scenario, and further more it was a very appropriate analogy to break cliches that woman can not be great engineers now if you have trouble understanding the written word maybe you could use some text-to-speach software to help you pick up the big words ok? or maybe you just shouldnt post much, you seem to have trouble with this whole messageboard thing in general ps, your story really did suck. not funny in the least. work on that [/b][/QUOTE] God bless you!!! You dig your own hole without even realizing it! I happen to agree with Dan South. If I go to a home depot, I'm not looking for a man to answer my questions because I'm sexist, but because more men know about that stuff and work there than women. But when I receive excellent help from a woman, I dont respond as if she is "brilliant" for suggesting the proper screw. Possession of a penis is not a prerequisite for knowing how to screw. How many males would you have described as "brilliant" simply because they did not ask a question obvious to many people, and certainly those with some musical experience. The girl in your story was, after all, hanging out in a music store, and is now *your* piano teacher which suggests that you were not her first exposure to the subject. Better to stare at tits and ass, than hide behind the disingenuous facade of a sexist svengali-wannabe. Tedster: AY MAYTEE -- PULL UP THE WINCH, THE WENCH BE BREWIN TO BLOW, ARRRRRRR.... (actually, while a battle would be amusing, with this guy, it's just too damn easy to win). Anderton: I couldn't agree with you more. Those dopey barbie dolls at the trade shows are an embarrassment to anything with a hole in it. Mr. Darling: I disagree, logical assumptions may be based in fact rather than prejudice, as pointed out by Dan South. To others who, like myself, would prefer to see more chicks in the nest of audio recording and production: I notice there aint a whole lot of females in leadership positions among the Taliban. Do you think that is because they'd rather throw on a burka and beg? As long as guys like DRiLoad are amazed and oh-so-delighted when a woman, of all people, "even had suggestions for mic placement!" the burka of gender discrimination in audio remains. Valkyriesound tells it like it is. BTW, DRi, 19 of your 20 students have the right idea. Converting MIDI to audio files and audio files to MIDI, is a very helpful technique. Not a dumb question at all. -Peace, Love, and BrittanyLips [quote]Original post by DRiLoad: [b]anyone remember my "dnb producer recording accoustic guitar!" thread? well that accoustic guitarist and singer i was engineering for is now my piano teacher she is 18, prodigy daughter in a family of prodigies, from a heritage of damn prodigies, and to be honest, i have never, EVER seen somebody who knew NOTHING about electronica or its recording systems pick it up so fast in an hour she understood midi (never asked how to CONVERT MIDI TO AUDIO! brilliant!), she could use my sound modules and Sonar, understood what Reason was about, operate my sampler, understood the signal path through mic to mixer to audio interface to recording software, and even had suggestions for mic placement! not to mention her VOICE! and to think i met her the day i just happened to go into a music store and play with their drum machines.... i was goofing around on a roland SPD6 whne i heard a VOICE anyway we chat, get in touch later... sh*t... she can SING her guitar is awesome too.... females! bless em :p why SHOULDNT they use samplers and engineer i guess.[/b][/quote] [ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Brittanylips ]

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr Darling: [b]Lee , your attitude is admirable (how come you're still single), and it's the only attitude that will work for minority / weaker sex. [/b][/quote] Um, women are NOT a minority. In fact, they're one of the few true majorities (along with right-handed people). That point aside, I DO agree that Lee's attitude is admirable. In fact, her last installment may be the finest post that I've ever seen on these forums.

[m2]

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: macle96@yahoo.com ]

[teh dri]

someone spent WAY too long on their reply i see i stand by my comments. i am ever so delighted that a pianist of any sex show (yes) BRILLIANCE in adapting those skills to digital sequencing and MIDI and yes, her comments on mic placement were equally brilliant. keep in mind this PERSON was totally niave of anything to do with engineering/producing/sequencing and yet has taken to it like a fish in water. brilliant. the fact that she was a female ever too aware her entire life of the idea that "females should just sing and play guitar", which is prevalent where she grew up, makes it a worthy story to add to this discussion that sexist attitudes in the studio are fading out. just my luck jermaine greer [sic] wants to play school-hero with my words as her context bending manifesto.... good on you though. i hope your VICTORY!!! makes you feel a greater person. go for it. yeehaaa. you're the best. you have everyones attention. all eyes on you... this IS what you wanted right? you DID just want to sound the pinnacle of intelligence and impress us all didnt you???? fence a little more... you dig YOUR own hole also and hey, if we pop out in china, we'll know we've only just BEGUN to dig, ya dig? :p

[Dan South]

[quote][b] I happen to agree with Dan South. If I go to a home depot, I'm not looking for a man to answer my questions because I'm sexist, but because more men know about that stuff and work there than women. [/b][/quote] Um, to be clear, I didn't say that, and I never meant to imply it. There are lots of women at Home Depot and the auto parts store who know a WHOLE lot about home improvement and car repairs then I do. No matter who greets me at one of these stores, I assume that they have the knowledge to help me. I think I may have seen [b]ONE[/b] occasion where a young lady needed to refer the question to the "experienced guy" in the parts department. But I've seen young GUYS refer to the "experienced guy" on [b]MANY[/b] occasions. In any cases, I still thank the referring person on the way out to help bolster their self-confidence, and I know that the next time someone comes in with the same question, they'll handle it with ease. The examples that I've quoted in previous posts had more to do with social situations. If you start to talk about auto parts or home improvement at a cocktail party, most women roll their eyes and walk away. On the other hand, I know some women who can use every tool ever invented and build a house from the ground up. I recognize that they're in the minority, but so what. I'll never assume that a woman knows less about these topics just because she's a woman. If she's NOT interested in discussing such topics, it doesn't surprise me, but that's DIFFERENT than making this assumption before giving her the opportunity to share what she knows on the subject (or to glaze over, drop me like a rock, and go talk to someone who's "funny"). ;)

[Chip McDonald]

[quote]Originally posted by Brittanylips: [b]I happen to agree with Dan South. If I go to a home depot, I'm not looking for a man to answer my questions because I'm sexist, but because more men know about that stuff and work there than women. [/b][/quote] What was being said about irony in another post....? Ok, so about 2 months ago I went out a few times with this woman that was a "facilitator" for a Home Depot. Laugh if you must, but trust me you wouldn't know this by her appearance (which isn't exactly conducive to working there) or her education... She did know basically all there was to know about anything found in a Home Depot. More irony is that I found myself in this Home Depot tonight with my parents, looking at carpet for their living room, thinking "I *could* go find her since she would know everything about carpet here, BUT.... ahg...". Ahg. Sigh. Anyhow, as it turns out there's a lot of women that apparently work for Home Depot higher up, because it would seem the men don't tend to see it as a potential "good job" for whatever reason. Too concerned with being "contrac-turs" I suppose. Man, why so much about "Home Freaking Depot" today? ahg... can we turn the "IRONY" knob down some, PLEASE?

[teh dri]

haha this thread is eating itself with applied assumption and implied innuendo :p i think we all agree on the same issue here, but are finding it hard to find common ground to express it in this 'day and age', to coin a cliche, i would have hoped that a thread like this would be entirely redundant. sad however, that knee-jerk, and counter-knee-jerk reactions are a self sustaining cycle can we all end with a smile and a hug? lets get back to music!

[Brittanylips]

[b]Dan South[/b] -- sorry -- I thought I recalled who posted what, but when I dashed off my post above, I combined you with dino321 (who you quote). In any case, I do agree with what you write, and the honesty with which you write it, just as I agree with [b]dino321[/b] when he writes: "My company's (Compaq) ratio is about 10 to 1 male to female in technical jobs. That doesn't mean they are not capable - they just aren't interested." Just as there are more male techies at Compaq, there is more male than female staff on the floor at Home Depot. It's not sexist, it's true. I would also guess that it were true that less women would be interested and, frankly, qualified for these jobs. While facts are not sexist, the underlying reasons for them may be. Our society steers women from these subjects at a young age, these skills are frequently passed from father to son, and in the history of our species, women have enjoyed freedoms that men typically enjoy for only several out of 10,000 generations. Having gotten to this point, I agree with Lee that the obstacles are often more imagined than real for many women who fail to thrive. While girls should be encouraged to pursue their interests and thrive in typically male-dominated professions, as dino321 writes, that is because they are "capable," not "prodigious" and "brilliant" as my friend from down under writes when he discovers a girl who "even had suggestions for mic placement." -Peace, Love, and BrittanyLips

[vintagevibe]

Brittanylips, Thanks for the nod. It is, however, a bit comical discussing sexism with "Brittanylips" :D

[Matt.Hepworth]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b] That's because it's hard to keep focused on an intelligent conversation when you're staring at a rack. Just kidding ladies. I never do this. I'm talking to you, but I'm staring at your husband because I'm not trying to figure out what kind of underwear he's got on. Oh, darn, I did it again. Sorry, so sorry. Let's just start the whole conversation over and I'll try to stare at your...beautiful...eyes... Oh, shit! I'm busted. No, SHE'S busted! And that's the problem. Did I mention that it's hard? Yes, I did, didn't I. Ahem! So, do you live nearby...? [ 01-06-2002: Message edited by: Dan South ][/b][/quote] I'd like to add, that many men talk to the man rather than his significant other due to the fact that he is afraid his friend (being insecure and all), will think he's hitting on his woman. I'm sure you've noticed - some men seem to take offense to you conversing with their "property". Personally, I have no problem talking with the woman as much or more than the man (with the exeption of a painfully obvious disdain for giving attention as mentioned before), but (like you well said) it's hard to stay focused on the facial features rather than going for the double feature.

[Tedster]

[quote]Originally posted by theglitch: [b] I'd like to add, that many men talk to the man rather than his significant other due to the fact that he is afraid his friend (being insecure and all), will think he's hitting on his woman. I'm sure you've noticed - some men seem to take offense to you conversing with their "property". Personally, I have no problem talking with the woman as much or more than the man (with the exeption of a painfully obvious disdain for giving attention as mentioned before), but (like you well said) it's hard to stay focused on the facial features rather than going for the double feature.[/b][/quote] And what is that about women? They'll wear something low cut and cleavage revealing, and then bitch about how all the guys at the party would stare impolitely at their cleavage.

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Tedster: [b] And what is that about women? They'll wear something low cut and cleavage revealing, and then bitch about how all the guys at the party would stare impolitely at their cleavage.[/b][/quote] Ooh, be careful, Tedster! "She was askin' for it" is NOT a valid defense. ;) Women have the right to make themselves look as beautiful and sexy and inviting as humanly possible and then get infuriated when you look at them (or FAIL to look at them, depending on what they want from you at that particular instant). Them's the breaks. :D