Tahiti or Asia on the cheap...

[Sergievsky]

We have some great places here in the Philippines, and a lot of it is still fairly untouched, very non-commercial. The big plus being just about everyone understands english. I'd be more than happy to help you out, only thing is June to july is rainy season, though my cousin just came in last week and had a great time because there are still windows of sunshine where you can enjoy the beaches. And if it does rain, just go get an hour and a half massage for $7!

[KenElevenShadows]

I was in the Philippines a very long time ago and can't tell you any specifics except to say that it's really beautiful and the people are very very nice. My coworker is Filipina and may be able to offer some good places to go should you decide that this is the place to go!!!

[deanmass]

Ken, your group is playing the freaking VIPER ROOM!!!

 

That is at least one thing to be happy about.

 

I got ya beat on the heart break thing pal. I have 2 children, and have been with my spouse 17 years, 15 married as of this fall. I went to see a lawyer 3 weeks ago. Thank (deity of choice) you have no children with her.

[KenElevenShadows]

Arrrrgh!!! I am really sorry to hear that. Yes, with children, it's far more difficult, much more complicated. Best of luck. And believe me, I'm not trying to beat anyone in the heartache thing. I have a good life, and except for my ex-girlfriend's betrayal, cannot complain about much at all (well, okay, traffic, smog, and the Lakers... ).

[Dan South]

Originally posted by steelandre:

They came back with a broken heart because they fell in love with a Thai girl ...

You mean an AIDS-ridden hooker? I hear that the epidemic is out of control in Southeast Asia.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by deanmass:

I got ya beat on the heart break thing pal. I have 2 children, and have been with my spouse 17 years, 15 married as of this fall. I went to see a lawyer 3 weeks ago. Thank (deity of choice) you have no children with her.

Dean,

 

Do whatever it takes to work this out with her. Whatever it takes. As they say, it's cheaper to keep her. I don't know your situation, but I'm betting that your kids are going to go throug hell if you do this.

 

Okay, I'm going to butt out of your business - now that I've butted in - but, just, THINK about it, man. Could you live one more month with her? One more week? One more day? Is it going to kill you? In the end, leaving might be the best choice. But then again, toughing it out might be the best choice. Just...don't...do anything...hasty...okay?

[Dan South]

This whole Lee/steelandre/Ken thing ... ugh, what a mess! I do believe that Andre is correct about the power, but I also believe that Lee is correct that once you give the power, it's a little late.

 

The biggest problems arise when one person starts investing too much of themselves, and the other person, feeling smothered invests less and less. Then you get the classic situation of the person with all of the love has none of the power, and vice versa.

 

It's a mistake for the person who's already investing a lot to invest more and more and more. They end up crushing the relationship under the weight of their feelings. Probably the only thing that you can do under this circumstance is pull back a bit emotionally and see if they fill in the gap. If they do, then you have something to build upon. If not, then you never did, and the relationship, meaningful as it was for a while, was not based on something that could be maintained over the long term.

 

However, that's not really the situation in Ken's world, at least I don't think so, only he knows for sure. She went and done him some terrible wrong. The only thing he can to now is...no wait, that was the lyric to "Hey Joe" - nevermind.

 

Um, Ken, you're on a slippery slope here. If you're too quick to forgive and forget, she may feel that she has a lapdog that she can treat badly in the future. Then again, if you do share something special, it's very likely possible to work things out. This may have been an isolated incident, and the situation may be recoverable.

 

You'll have to face the fact at some point that whatever she did, she did for a reason. What is that reason? Is it something that you can resolve? If yes, how practical is it to do so? If no, then she may be faced with the same situation in the future sometime.

 

I might suggest the C word somewhere down the line (counselling) if you have trouble dealing with all of this and if you're really serious (considering marriage, etc.). Maybe later, but see how things go for a while.

 

The important thing to remember, and this helps you keep the whole power thing in balance, is that even though you're a couple, you're still individuals. Can you love her an honor her as an individual? What if she felt that she needed to spend two years at a research camp in Antarctica? Could you handle that? Loving someone isn't just about having them handy for hugs and romantic movies. It's about supporting their growth as a person even if that requires some sacrifice on your part.

 

Okay, it's late, and I'm rambling, but I hope that something in this post might have helped in some small way. The bottom line is that YOU are a really GOOD and CARING and INTELLIGENT and TALENTED and VALUABLE and HONORABLE person, and that whomever you end up with is going to land a real PRIZE. That's what really matters. Keep THAT thought in focus at ALL TIMES, and it will help to keep everything else in perspective during this difficult time.

 

Good luck!

[steelandre]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Sigh...

 

Lol, in that case, sigh... to you too.

 

yes, I understood perfectly well what you were saying, and I know a lot of people believe it. I'm from California you know - lot of New Agers out there.

 

Since I've noticed before in other threads you don't mind long posts, I'm gonna give this another try so you might understand it even more perfectly..

 

What I said has very little to do with "believe" for me personally. I don't really know what New Agers are all about (I once thought they were a cover band ) but I do prefer to be regarded as an individual who's being part of the Whole.( Hope that makes sense)

 

But, sorry I don't have any patience for people who try to re-invent human nature (as if such a thing could be done).

 

No need to apologize, I wasn't asking you for any patience Re-inventing human nature is not what my post was about. It couldn't be more further away from it , actually. I was refering to the (tragic) mistake (an illusion, rather), made by so many, in thinking that your Soul (or Self, if you will) is your Ego.

 

The reality is that love between adults isn't unconditional, nor do I believe it should be.

 

I respect your view on that ( and certainly don't think it is "silly") but unfortunately, in today's world, the above is true for so many people. But you are speaking of your reality based on your perceptions and that is perfectly legit when it works for you personally , as seems to be the case. If you do find unconditional Love in your life, or rather when it finds you, you might read back what you just wrote here and silently smile in a deeply understanding sort of way. Since I know you are very commited to environmental issues may I advise you to take a good look around at Nature, again. There's an abundance of examples for people to learn from it, with regards to unconditional Love. (and Forgiveness, for that matter.)

 

People "invest" in relationships because they do (and should) not only want to give but to get. They want to build lives together, they might buy a home together, have children, support each other's life ambitions.

 

Giving, without expecting it back, is a truly wonderful thing (gift) if that is what you meant to say. Same as in being happy is making happy. There isn't much to 'get' (gain)in reality in the first place, though. It's already all inside you anyway, it just may need to be triggered to 'magically' come alive. If you give, someone else automatically receives, right? In contrast to the popular believe that if you ask thou shalt receive, just stop asking for what you ( really don't) need in the first place. Only then thou shalt recieve.(hmm, tough one).

 

Although you did, much to my surprise, question my honesty earlier, I can honestly (lol) say that I don't consider myself to be in a position to tell people how they should go about their relationships ( hint ). You are talking about people's actions ( undertaking things, making baby's and/or sharing material stuff ) and I'm not. Supporting each other of course is a nobel thing.

 

These are all things that require "investment" in each other, and the expectation that the other person is going to consider your feelings in their actions.

 

And what if they stop considering your feelings in their actions? Once again, those "feelings" are in many cases a (by)product of an over inflated ego. The difference here is that you seem to be talking about some requirements to maintain relations and I am talking about two people in love that understand and respect each other from a very basic Universal Principle ,without a requirement for maintenance of that very principle. The less folks try to explain themselves, or their 'loving' ways, to the other, the better. If you get my drift.

 

imho,the only requirement is to be unconditional towards one another. "Investment", as it is demonstrated by many, takes effort. To me, true relations to anyone or anything are effortless. (again, I hope I make sense here). Of course doing nice things together adds to the fun and pleasure of being in a loving relationship. It's when certain 'pleasures' become a requirement where things usually go wrong and cause pain. That was my point.

 

That's the risk of a relationship which is always there. You can try to minimize the risk by not falling too hard too fast, and getting to know the person well before you make a commitment.

 

Tell me, when do you ever know another person well enough ? When do you know yourself well enough ? People change, hopefully grow, but they are not static entities but subject to many dynamic processes. You talk about making a commitment. I said before in this thread "the art of being able to surrender to the concept of unconditional love". There is a ( not so) subtle difference in these two words and a real danger of mixing them up.

 

But the risk is still there and you can't make it go away by telling yourself you don't expect anything from the relationship. That's silly.

 

If you surrender the way I meant it you will automatically give up fear and therefore there is no "risk" involved and nothing left to "go away".

It is in fact an act of liberation.

This might seem silly to you too but if you speak about risk why is it that so many people are struggling to accept the consequence of taking that risk? What is silly to me , though, is people expecting a reward for their 'investment'.

An emotional ROI calculation, so to speak. Most of the time this 'investment' turns out to be weapon of mass inner destruction of a misguided delusional terrorist called Ego.

Hey, let's wage a War on Ego ! Let's get as many as possible coalition partners and rid the World of terrorism on a true and long lasting basis...

(well, one can dream, can't they?)

 

A truly satisfying relationship DOES require commitment and "investment" in each other. If you don't own up to your own expectations of a relationship, it's a cinch you will get hurt and/or hurt the other person.

 

Depends on which needs need to be satisfied. A review of one's expectations might be in order. In the mean time, keep them in check. As I said before, although being a big discomfort there is nothing strange in experiencing pain, which is often the case when an ego gets hurt. It becomes a real problem when that pain gets so big that you become mentally (rationally and emotionally)immobile. That's where you get severly handicapped in objectively assessing yourself and/or the situation you are in. It can lead to suicides and homocides in the worst case scenario.

 

By acknowledging the pain and distant your self from it ( as in an observer) can work miracles. It even could be a key ingredient to enter a higher state of Awareness. It worked for me.

 

Life is a lot more complicated than trying to minimize risk and pain at all costs, and so are people.

 

Life in itself is not complicated at all, unless you 'choose' it to be.

 

Sometimes the MOST valuable experiences can be gained by allowing yourself to deeply experience pain instead of trying to "make yourself feel better" as soon as possible.

 

Good to see we are in agreement here. For example, I see a lot of people jump straight into another (new ! try this! you'll love it ! only $99,95 ! heheh) relationship after the previous 'ended'. Out of fear for being alone and confrontations with themselves. Sometimes they even start one (one night stand or longer) before the previous one ended. Just so they can feel (temporarily) better. An illusion, in many cases, and nothing short of a stay of execution.

 

Being in a lot of pain sometimes feels like the only appropriate way of showing respect for the depth of a relationship (and that includes respect for yourself, for having chosen that person as a long time partner).

 

That was exactly my point earlier and you could not have worded it better. It is the being in pain as oppose to seperating yourself from it, that is the cause of tremendous suffering.

The 'depth of a relationship' is a subjective and very abstract thing, though. Their perception of depth might be not be the same as your perception of it. Or vice versa.

 

To me, the only "appropriate way of showing respect" after the relation is letting each other unconditionally go but only after you both have sincerely tried to give it a fair chance. Loving each other and staying together has very much to do with sharing each others happiness. Letting someone go, as painfull as it might seem at first, is an act of true unselfish love. I won't address your remark about 'chosing' a partner, let alone for a "long time" because that concept is alien to me. I don't believe in marriage either. I never married and I never will. Guess you could call me a non-conformist. (Lol, I do think music was and still is my first love.) Before you're all getting worried, I do have several beautiful girlfriends all over the world that I have wonderful quality time with over extended periods of time.

 

 

It seems from reading Ken's last post that that is in fact how he feels, and personally I respect that. I realize it's not a very popular viewpoint these days but I think it's a valuable one.

 

From seeing his last post, I'm sure Ken will be just fine soon and I'm really happy for that. With all due respect, I hope he will be able to chalk it up as some sort of growing pains, later on in life. btw, don't worry if a viewpoint is popular or not, they all have intrinsic value. I do hope however that you didn't find too much "crap" in mine or still believe I'm "lying to myself" this time around

 

I can only wish this post really did make it more clear. Speaking/writing is such a limited vehicle for authentic and true communication, especially in another language. I know from deep personal experiences that what I am really trying to convey here can't be said anyway but is found only between the words and in the silence between thoughts. The rest is really just illusions, interpretations and third hand information.

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

steelandre.

(Perhaps a New Born New Ager, for sure,I guess, or something to that effect..:-)

[ani]

The biggest problems arise when one person starts investing too much of themselves, and the other person, feeling smothered invests less and less. Then you get the classic situation of the person with all of the love has none of the power, and vice versa.

 

It's a mistake for the person who's already investing a lot to invest more and more and more. They end up crushing the relationship under the weight of their feelings. Probably the only thing that you can do under this circumstance is pull back a bit emotionally and see if they fill in the gap. If they do, then you have something to build upon. If not, then you never did, and the relationship, meaningful as it was for a while, was not based on something that could be maintained over the long term.

Well said Dan. Giving too much into a relationship while not expecting anything in return can be devasting in a long term situation. After a while those things that you do over and above the norm become expected, or to some; annoying.

 

I've done a lot of soul searching since my separation from my last husband in 1995. I've had a few let downs since, but I realized that much of the problem in failed relationships has been as much my fault as anyone else. I fall too fast and move too slow. I assume too much and communicate too little.

 

When I lose the comfort zone, then I say too much at once... yet it's not in the form of communication; usually it's all the frustrations that have built up over time that all come out at once and crucify anything that might have been salvaged. I have a terrible habit of not telling a person when they have offended me or that they are hurting me. They take it for granted that I am content and happy while I might actually be feeling otherwise. To many, it's easy to go off and tell someone everything what they are doing wrong, but to folks like me; I ride with the wind and go whichever direction it blows. I don't like to fight with a companion, and often times, the surfacing of a fight will end in the termination of the relationship. If I've been hurt badly enough, I spare no feelings when the stink hits the fan.

 

I like what Lee said in this statement:

 

The reality is that love between adults isn't unconditional, nor do I believe it should be. People "invest" in relationships because they do (and should) not only want to give but to get. They want to build lives together, they might buy a home together, have children, support each other's life ambitions. These are all things that require "investment" in each other, and the expectation that the other person is going to consider your feelings in their actions.

I've heard the "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" bullcrap way too often. To me, the use of "Unconditional Love" is one of the biggest forms of manipulation and control that was ever brought into the play of human emotions. Love is about trust, respect, honor, and many other things; but it is not about having to LEARN TO ADAPT while sacrificing your own individuality to accommodate another persons' needs and their disregard for anyone else's feelings outside their own.

 

Unconditional Love tends to be the armor that a lot of people wear to go out and live like a devil and then walk back into the arms of an angel. This batch of hogwash that gets routinely used like, "If you truly love me, you'd understand"..... I don't buy into that sorry ended jarble whatsoever ..... it's a matter of "If you truly love me, you would understand that what you are doing is hurting me. It's YOUR choice to avoid doing those things that hurt me and if you choose otherwise, you are not showing me any respect and securing my reasons for wanting to be near you."

 

I could really get hellbent on the subject of unconditional love, having been through the ringer with two alcoholics.......... it's a bunch of bullcrap and the biggest excuse ever written for mankind. There SHOULD be expectations inside a relationship; if there isn't some sort of building block to go on, why even call it a relationship at all?

[deanmass]

Dan, I appreciate the thoughts, but, I have been living in survival mode for over 3 years. Marriage Counseling, personal therapy, the whole onion.

[Bbach1]

Originally posted by Tedster:

Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Originally posted by Mats Olsson.:

Ken, I'm really sorry to hear about yor breakup.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I am really really hurting inside, but am resilient and will keep on going.

Ken bro, there are no words. Just suffice to say that you're a true ace among men, and you certainly deserve the right woman...and if that wasn't her, it's her loss, not yours.

Also, you are now free to chase all those beautiful sexy ladies out there!! Oh, I'm very envious.

[Wewus432]

Yes Sherri, I would love to go to Tahiti with you, but now is not a good time. Maybe next year.

[Dan South]

Andre,

 

I've met a number of gentlemen - I use the term loosely - who make regular trips to Thailand for the sole purpose of hiring prostitutes. I'm sure that many people go there and find true romance, but the place is well-known for this "extra tourist feature," just as The Netherlands are known for some "extra tourist features." It doesn't mean that everyone who goes there indulges in these activities, but the industry does flourish there, as do the problems that come along with it.

 

STD's in Southeast Asia are well-documented. This has no reflection on your personal experiences there.

[F7sound -]

A trip to Tahiti w/TheWewus.... Valky (Sherri), you might want to wait till next year and take him up on it. Bet the trip would be interesting.... wierd, but interesting.

 

Or would it?

 

Michael Oster

F7 Sound and Vision

ReGurgiTron - I approved this message, or did I?

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Ani:

I've heard the "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" bullcrap way too often. To me, the use of "Unconditional Love" is one of the biggest forms of manipulation and control that was ever brought into the play of human emotions. Love is about trust, respect, honor, and many other things; but it is not about having to LEARN TO ADAPT while sacrificing your own individuality to accommodate another persons' needs and their disregard for anyone else's feelings outside their own.

Ani,

 

I'm betting that you feel unconditional love for your kids. Oh, they may upset you from time to time, but when it's all said and done, you'll love them forever no matter what they do.

 

Unconditional love doesn't mean subjecting yourself to abuse. That's unconditional DEPENDENCY. If a person puts up with abuse because they can't face the emotional burden of a breakup, that's NOT unconditional love. Unconditional love means doing what's best for BOTH parties in the LONG RUN even if you have to give up something in the process.

 

Fictional example: A Broadway actress falls in love with a singer. She realizes that the singer's talent is in country music, and that he has to move to Nashville to advance his career. She has to stay in New York or London where she performs nightly. If they have unconditional love for each other, they respect the fact that the other person has to be away from them much of the time. In fact, they may or may not be able to keep a relationship going under those circumstances and may end up with other people in the long run. Or not. They might be able to manage the relationship even if they see each other less frequently than most couples. Phil Donahue and Marlo Thomas worked in separate cities for decades. Many people in the military make similar sacrifices.

 

On the other hand, unconditional love requires honest, periodic assessment of the situation. The actress may be thriving, but if she realizes that the singer is miserable without her constant company, she may have to make difficult choices. She may abandon her career to be with him. Or they may reach the conclusion that their situation is simply not maintainable and that they can only be happy if they move on. Loving someone enough to do what's right for them, even if it comes at a dear cost to YOU, that is unconditional love. Bickering and fighting about "you're never there for me" is CONDITIONAL love, if it's love at all. Conditional love with find a short term quarrel; unconditional love will find a long term solution.

 

Love is a verb as well as a noun. Love is an action, and sometimes you have to apply that action with all of your strength. Eventually, you have to sort out for yourself whether you can accept the parameters of the relationship and still be happy. That's a function of unconditional love, too: love and respect for yourself, which is vitally important, even more important than love for others. Without love for yourself, you can't evaluate a situation effectively.

 

Unconditional Love tends to be the armor that a lot of people wear to go out and live like a devil and then walk back into the arms of an angel. This batch of hogwash that gets routinely used like, "If you truly love me, you'd understand"..... I don't buy into that sorry ended jarble whatsoever ..... it's a matter of "If you truly love me, you would understand that what you are doing is hurting me. It's YOUR choice to avoid doing those things that hurt me and if you choose otherwise, you are not showing me any respect and securing my reasons for wanting to be near you."

 

I could really get hellbent on the subject of unconditional love, having been through the ringer with two alcoholics.......... it's a bunch of bullcrap and the biggest excuse ever written for mankind. There SHOULD be expectations inside a relationship; if there isn't some sort of building block to go on, why even call it a relationship at all?

Again, I don't see these as examples of unconditional love. A relationship is a practical, pragmatic thing. Sometimes you can't HAVE a relationship with someone that you dearly LOVE. Sometimes the ultimate act of love is to let the relationship go.

 

Goethe once wrote: "Love is an ideal thing; marriage is a real thing. A confusion of the real with the ideal never goes unpunished." It took me a LONG time to understand this, much less accept it. I'm a hopeless romantic. I like to believe in fairy tale romance and happy endings that go on forever without a hitch. But romance doesn't pay the bills or get the kids dressed for school in the morning. Maintaining a relationship is like running a business; it's not always going to go smoothly just because you have excellent rapport with your business partner. Sometimes tough choices have to be made, and this is where the "real" and the "ideal" may have to square off in a boxing match. Usually, the best course of action is the one that provides the best LONG TERM outcome, even if the short term is undesirable. This is where the unconditional part comes in, sacrificing immediate comfort for longer term stability.

 

Now, all of this assumes that both parties are rational and are focused on the best possible outcome. A person with emotional or chemical dependencies may not be able to operate logically enough to make the proper long term decisions, or even the proper short term decisions. But then, would you start a business with such a person? If you would, then you'd have to expect some erratic behavior from time to time, perhaps ALL of the time. If both parties are happy with their erratic lives, then more power to them. But if that type of behavior makes you either person miserable, then they have to recognize that it's not a pragmatic and maintainable match. It doesn't make good business sense. Depending on the circumstances, staying in such a relationship is tantamount to unconditional dependency, not unconditional love. Unconditional love may mean letting the person go so that they can find a more suitable situation, or so they can reflect on the failure of the situation and possibly straighten themselves out.

 

So, I guess the point of this most voluminous post is that unconditional love doesn't mean hanging on to an abusive, dead end relationship. In fact, if means the exact opposite. It means loving from a detached perspective as though you're looking down on the situation from a high mountain, where you can see what's best for all parties involved, and then coming down the mountain and having the courage to make the difficult choices that lead the best long term solution for all parties involved.

[Sergievsky]

Originally posted by Dan South:

Andre,

 

I've met a number of gentlemen - I use the term loosely - who make regular trips to Thailand for the sole purpose of hiring prostitutes. I'm sure that many people go there and find true romance, but the place is well-known for this "extra tourist feature," just as The Netherlands are known for some "extra tourist features." It doesn't mean that everyone who goes there indulges in these activities, but the industry does flourish there, as do the problems that come along with it.

 

STD's in Southeast Asia are well-documented. This has no reflection on your personal experiences there.

Dan, have you ever been to Southeast Asia? Or even out of the United States?

When I was living in Germany it never seized to amaze me how people know so little of this corner of the world, just what they see on tv or read on the news. Of course it was the same with a lot of people I know in the Philippines who know so little about Europe, and how majestic and wonderful it's cultures can be.

 

But it was that contrast that made me keep bugging my friends in Germany (and my other hometown Chicago USA) to come out here for vacation. I mean, going from Chicago to Disneyland or New York is great, and going from Rome to Paris is pretty fantastic too, but going to a completely different culture on this side of the world, a different face of mother earth, and seeing people living a completely different way of life, can really be...invigorating. You start to see things, and see people in a different light.

 

I haven't been to thailand, but was able to travel to Hongkong, Singapore, and to Indonesia (and though not southeast asia, Japan, another must see) But just about everyone I've talked to that has been to Thailand have really enjoyed they're stay, most of all the beaches (Phuket always is the first place visited).

[Sergievsky]

strange double post....

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Sergievsky:

Dan, have you ever been to Southeast Asia?

Japan is as close as I've come.

 

Or even out of the United States?

Many times, three continents.

 

When I was living in Germany it never seized to amaze me how people know so little of this corner of the world, just what they see on tv or read on the news. Of course it was the same with a lot of people I know in the Philippines who know so little about Europe, and how majestic and wonderful it's cultures can be.

 

I agree that you can't know a place until you've been there. Media coverage is always narrowly focused. I'm sure that SE Asia is lovely. I've heard amazing things from people who've toured Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, the Philippines, etc. I have friends who just honeymooned in Hong Kong and Bali.

[Lee Flier]

Great last post, Dan, and I pretty much agree with everything in it except that I might take it even further and say that dependency doesn't HAVE to be a bad thing either. I think dependency has become a dirty word of late, because we see so many examples of unhealthy dependency that we think it's inherently unhealthy. In fact, I think the "unhealthy" part stems from the fact that so many people in modern society don't have the kinds of healthy dependencies we need, and usually, people end up acting out their unacknowledged needs in a negative way, because they can't really be ignored.

 

Keep in mind this is coming from somebody who's always been pretty much the poster child for "independence" and "unconditional love." In most people's eyes I've never "needed" anybody, have always taken care of myself, have built my own career, never been married, moved across the country by myself not knowing anybody, own my own house, etc. In relationships I was always the model girlfriend - "Sure honey, of COURSE you need to be on the road with your band, that's cool. I have plenty of things to do until you get back. And whatever if you pick up a groupie or two on the road, I know you get lonesome and what happens on the road stays on the road... I'm not a jealous person cuz I know I have a place in your heart that they don't." Etc. And I really meant it all, too, it's not like I was secretly sitting at home being miserable. As most of you here know too, I'm pretty good at being objective and logical about things, and I wasn't any different in relationships. If I could see that my love for somebody was better served by us NOT being together, I could accept that. As a result I still remember most of my former relationships fondly, and I also have a lot of male friends some of whom might have been boyfriends but are not, because we know it would never have worked in the real world. Like you said Dan, being aware of the real vs. the ideal can save you a lot of heartache, and it did for me.

 

BUT, like the Buddha said, no one escapes suffering, and it's almost a guarantee that what works for you at one time in your life will bite you in the ass later. Suffice it to say that nowadays when I look back at my years of unassailable self confidence and unconditional love, I wonder how the hell I ever did that. Certainly I've since become acquainted with the little devils of jealousy and fear of loss (in a BIG way ), and maybe more importantly I also realize how valuable those feelings really are to us humans.

 

I think that, particularly when you're young, it's easier to idealize love because you don't really yet understand the value of commitment (which is perfectly OK at the time). You're content to go from person to person, and enjoy each person for "who they are" while having the freedom to be and discover who YOU are. I do think it's really important to do that at least for awhile. In fact, a lot of people who get married young suffer because they DON'T go through this "phase" of life, get bogged down in commitment and dependency too early, and end up having a hell of a midlife crisis later (often ending in divorce).

 

However, if things continue in that vein too long, it usually becomes "not enough" at some point. You might even have a ton of great friends and colleages, and a lot of people that either you do date or who would date you if you wanted to. But, with a very few individual exceptions, MOST people eventually realize the importance of having a real mate. As you get older the little things begin to be important: living together, knowing things about someone that only you could know, calling to let the other person know where you are, eating your meals together. Knowing you have a special place in that person's heart and life that no one else can fill and vice versa. It's terrifying to the point that a lot of people will do anything to avoid it. Cuz you know, once you elevate someone's role in your life above all the rest, you're dependent on them. And this being the physical world, they might die, or they might leave you. It's scary as hell. But there are depths that can only come from knowing someone intimately over a very long time, making an investment together. Sharing life's little details becomes a deeply soulful experience for which there really isn't any substitute in this world. If you get completely overwhelmed by the fear of losing the person, that's unhealthy of course, but there's nothing at all wrong with understanding the value of commitment in the physical world which also carries with it an inherent fear and risk.

 

Steelandre, although I definitely share your view that the soul is way more than just the ego, and that the ego may be illusory in the grand scheme of things, I also feel that so long as we're living in the physical world (which I don't mind by the way ), denying the ego is just as unhealthy and dishonest as denying the rest of the soul. For the time we are here, we are separate beings with very real needs and desires. If the way you're living is working for you for now, great. And if it always continues to work for you, that's great too. But understand that not everybody ends up on the same path, and that it's easy for you to have the philosophy that you do given that you don't believe in marriage. And you never know when there might come a day that you meet someone who's so unique and special to you that the thought of her being with anyone else, or of spending a lot of time apart from her, would break your heart, and that being with anyone else is no longer very fulfilling to you either.

 

In any case, please consider that most people aren't like you in that respect and don't want to be, and there's nothing wrong with that either, so therefore the kind of advice you are giving may not be appropriate for them.

[Dan South]

Lee,

 

Agreed. Dependency can be a positive in the right situation and as long as it doesn't get out of control. Like when you get into a great band, it feels good to know that you can depend on your fellow players. In fact, you recognize that the music couldn't happen WITHOUT dependency.

 

But if you get into a situation where one band member gives the others grief about side projects, for instance, then it becomes a negative dependency.

 

By the way, I just thought of an example of unconditional love with which we're all familiar. Rick Blaine, Humphrey Bogart's character in Casablanca, is the embodiment the concept of unconditional love. He could have used love as an argument to insist that she stay behind, but he loved her enough to let her do what was best for her, and ultimately, arguably, what was best for both of them IN THE LONG RUN.

[ani]

Dan,

 

I understand your position on unconditional love between parent and child. Of course I will love my children regardless of their faults or failures. Being their guidance, I assume partial responsibility for their errors in life. I feel that it is my duty to teach my children right from wrong, and I will do my best to stand beside them in any situation. However, my children have been taught and know those things that tear a relationship down and also those things that build a relationship and keep it together.

 

I have taught them to respect others, to be honest, to be courteous, to be appreciative of good deeds, to return good deeds to others, to have caring and sharing hearts, among many other things in a good moral society of teachings. My children know that I have a low tolerance level for defiance and deceit. They have witnessed me close doors to bad situations without looking back. I use those situations as examples of what will cause a heart to run cold and hard.

 

I don't know that I could ever NOT love my children, but I do know that I will not enable them to live irresponsibly by providing them the means of support throughout their lifetime while they fail to acknowledge the struggles that I go through. Neither of my children were born with a mental handicap, so therefore, I will expect them to grow into responsible beings as adults. There comes a point where children need to take the initiative to cut the apron strings and go out on their own. I see too many ADULT children living at home with their parents MOOCHING off of them and draining every ounce of energy their parents have.... especially those with single mothers. I have no respect for these type people, and I pray to God that my children will never attempt to suck off of my income as I grow elderly. With my opinion of those people that mooch off of spouses or parents; my children might end up hating me before realizing that tough love would be for their own good to make them learn to live up to responsibility.

 

I love both of my parents, although my mother has been deceased for 17 years now. Neither of my parents were perfect; not at all. I had a very tainted childhood and young adulthood. We had our quarrels and our fall outs to where times passed without speaking; but I've grown up alot and I realize that my parents were/are only human and they're not super heros and beyond err.

 

I'm not very close to my father due to garbage from my youth, and I would never place my trust in him to watch MY children even today, but there is a factor of love and forgiveness that has allowed me to repair some of the damages born of my rearing. Becoming a parent myself has allowed me to realize the sacrifices that both parents made to make my existence possible. They could have dropped me at an orphanage, aborted me, pawned me off on whomever would take me, let me run the streets, kicked me out of the house at an early age, or whatever; but my father worked hard to support 5 children and a wife that didn't work..... I owe him my utmost respect for being the provider that allowed me and my family to have some level of dignity and status in life.

 

I hated my Dad for his degradation of my mother, the constant quarreling between my parents, his infidelity, his lack of involvement in being there physically and spiritually to help my mother with the raising of the children, and other things that are not something I would discuss with anyone other than the absolute closest of friends. My Dad was too busy chasing other women and DREAMS to bother taking the time to bond with us kids or to pass his knowledge on to us by helping us with tasks that we otherwise had to hire done as we grew older. The song "Cats in the Cradle" by Harry Chapin surely would be suitable for the relationship shared between my father and ALL of his children.

 

I have respect for what he sacrificed to provide for us; but I don't visit him very often at all. He was never at home when I was a kid, so it's not like I got to know him well enough to actually miss him. That's sad, but true. He had the time for church activities, carrying on his love affairs with women of the church, and his business endeavors (he was a creator also, but not of music... he was an inventor); but never the time for his wife and family.

 

Actually, prior to my mother's death, there was a time where I spent about 3 years to where I said that I could stand at my father's grave site and not shed a tear; AND I MEANT IT. Those feelings of hatred have subsided and I have learned to forgive my father for his faults after digging deep into my past and also HIS past to reflect the reasons why he is the way he is. This, I suppose, would be unconditional love. To seek beyond the obvious to find out why one lives as they do, and to understand that they may not have had the same life provided for them as to what they have strived to make better for their children.

 

The parent/child relationship is far different than significant other/spousal love. Children do not have the privilege of selecting their parents; they are born into situations. Parents are not always prepared for unexpected offsprings and therefore try to make the best of situations while still struggling to find themselves.

 

With a partner/lover it is entirely different. These are people that ELECT to be together willingly. If they subject themselves to pain from the beginning without setting their expectations at a higher levels; then they are codependent and end up settling for what comes their way instead of expecting certains levels of commitment, trust, give and take, and etc in a relationship and accepting nothing less.

 

When relationships are built around TOLERANCE, COVENIENCE, ACCOMMODATION, and other things that are things of this nature; one is selling out and, in a sense, telling themself that they are not worthy of anything better. They are too insecure and afraid of failure, they submit to mediocre and livable rather than holding out for what's right.

 

I, too, am a hopeless romantic believing in fairytales and happily ever after; I'm just not willing to SETTLE for anything less.

 

As crazy as it may sound, I have been celebant for 3 years now... an all time record for me since losing my virginity; but I don't want sex to cloud my judgment in selecting a lifetime mate. I want them to be great in bed, but congeniality is far more important in the long term. Sex is an action and not an emotion... I don't want to just be going through the motions of false pretense when I know that I'm not in love with a man. I have an incredibly high sex drive with an intense commitment to sexuality when involved inside a monogamous relationship; but as a few of my past relationships have been driven by sex, I want so much more than that before I indulge again.

 

I love incredible sex, but I want it to be with someone that I'm at least capable of LIKING. I'm taking my sweet time in getting to know a guy inside and out prior to jumping in again. Although, I do have this absolute dreaded fear that, if I fall head over heels in love with a guy prior to submitting to desires.... then he turns out to be absolutely SUCK in bed.... HOW AM I GOING TO LIVE WITH THAT?????? It's really a Catch 22 in knowing which direction to go with it. Quality sex is a very important factor in a relationship where sexuality drives are at peak levels.... it'd be a real big bummer if you met Mr. Perfect in every way... until it came time for the loving. This is one of those secular issues that I struggle with........

 

I know that love isn't based on sex... but... bad sex can ruin a good situation if it's not dealt with properly. A couple has to remain open to all the options if one or the other is not up to par in performance; that doesnt' mean multiple partners either.

 

I've REALLY drifted off topic, but it's what's on my mind right now so I'll leave it.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Originally posted by Dan South:

I don't know your situation, but I'm betting that your kids are going to go throug hell if you do this.

There you may be completely wrong, friend.

 

Kids are often better off in an environment where people aren't fighting and screaming at each other all the time. I know many, many people who were very relieved when their parents split (I sure was, for example). It depends on the age and maturity level of the kids.

 

If possible, people with kids should try and work things out, of course. But if it's not going to work out, why put the kids through the relationship problems by proxy? They can move on and grow without being the innocent bystander to a bad relationship, and have a better chance of not following the pattern with their own future relationships without the constantly dysfunctional role models.

 

- Jeff

[ani]

Kids are often better off in an environment where people aren't fighting and screaming at each other all the time. I know many, many people who were very relieved when their parents split (I sure was, for example). It depends on the age and maturity level of the kids.

As I touched based on some of my childhood horrors above; I wish to heck my parents would have divorced rather than live together while making it no secret that they hated each others' guts. They stayed together for the sake of the kids...

 

I never witnessed what it was like to be raised in a loving relationship, and therefore stuggle with being able to work through difficult times in a rational way in marriage. To avoid fighting, I usually hold things in far too long and issues fester into major episodes by the time things finally come to surface. I've worked hard at learning to express my emotions as I go, rather than letting things build up.....

[Wewus432]

I don't have time to read all this shit, but if someone of the opposite sex wants to pay for me to go to Tahiti with them, send me a PM.

[Wewus432]

I'm hot BTW. I've been working out.

[KenElevenShadows]

Wewus, I'm bettin' that Valky's all hot and bothered now...

[steelandre]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Steelandre, although I definitely share your view that the soul is way more than just the ego, and that the ego may be illusory in the grand scheme of things, I also feel that so long as we're living in the physical world (which I don't mind by the way ), denying the ego is just as unhealthy and dishonest as denying the rest of the soul.

Lee, I highly respect your intelligent and eloquent way of discussing subjects that matter, and many times even to great depth and lenght, as you have demonstrated before on this forum on many occasions. I also respect the fact that you, so it seems, decline the opportunity to indulge in one in greater detail with me any further. Based on your last reply where you haven't addressed other issues I brought up. That's okay, my posts was a gift in itself that I cared to share with you all and I'm convinced it contains sufficient food for thought.

 

I did make a honest (lol, well you keep bringing that up ) effort to explain some of my insights and chose my words as careful as I could, considering English is not my native tongue.

 

I must say however that it did surprise me that you pretty much agreed with Dan's last post ( a very good one, btw) in which he more or less touched on the same thing I had said before, in different words. Lol, I guess that makes me some sort of a romantic too. Just kidding,

 

I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty to consider your agreement with him, especially his take on unconditional love, as a pretty much (albeit tacit) agreement of the points I made about that subject as well.

 

One other thing, though. There's still some things you insist on interpretating different from the way I meant or even said them. I have never implied that the ego itself is "illusory" let alone denying its existance, anywhere. If I did deny it, then please point me to it. The ego as a phenomenon is very real for many folks, including myself. However, the mind tricks this clown/actor/ magician can play are based on sophisticated illusions and it is to one's own benefit to make that distinction and master or at least contain its destructive powers. And not to become a prisoner of it.

 

Please don't take me wrong again but if you would have read my post(s) more thorougly and dare I say it, perhaps more objectively, you also could have arrived at the conclusion that I have not denied the rest of the soul, anywhere. On the contrary, I did attempt to explain that very part of the soul in a practical way. Guess I failed.

 

I believe I enjoy the "physical world" at least as much as you do. Soul searching and the road to Self realization doesn't exclude that pleasure. I try not to become a slave of my body, though. Amongst other things it's a great instrument in the joys of making, and listening to music/ eating great food, seeing wonderful sights, have wild passionate sex, etc..

 

But understand that not everybody ends up on the same path, and that it's easy for you to have the philosophy that you do given that you don't believe in marriage.

 

I have not advocated any path for anyone as being the end all be all, one and only holy way. I'll leave those doctrines up to organized religions. There's many roads that lead to Rome, as we say here in Europe. You are confusing path with final Destiny. In other words, you are looking at my finger, not where I'm pointing.

 

You are also mixing up my personal insight with some sort of philosophy. Philosophy isn't even involved here. And what that has to do with me not being married totally baffles me. You seriously don't think that a single person ( as in alone, not lonely) is incapable of loving, now do you ?

Or that a marriage certificate and wearing a ring is the only licence to true love....

 

I know that the institution of (holy) matrimony historically has played a significant role and is deeply rooted in American society. A cornerstone, right? With a 'few' religious zealots to back it up with false and ludecrous propaganda:

http://www.cornerstonemag.com/pages/show_page.asp?147

 

http://eutopia.cua.edu/article.cfm?ID=71

 

http://www.cwfa.org/library.asp?category=family

 

And this one really takes the cake:

 

"As George Bush tries to make gay marriage a key election issue, a friend has emailed me one American response. I've checked all the references. It begins: "The US presidential Prayer Team is urging us to 'pray for the President' as he seeks wisdom on how to legally codify the definition of marriage.

"Any religious person believes prayer should be balanced by action. So here, in support of the Prayer Team's admirable goals, is a proposed constitutional amendment to codify marriage on biblical principles:

 

1. Marriage in the United States shall consist of a union between one man and one or more women. (Gen 29:17-28; II Sam 3:2-5)

 

2. Marriage shall not impede a man's right to take concubines, in addition to his wife or wives. (II Sam 5:13; I Kings 11:3; II Chron 11:21)

 

3. A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If she is not a virgin, she shall be executed. (Deut 22:13-21)

 

4. Marriage of a believer and a non-believer shall be forbidden. (Gen 24:3; Num 25:109; Ezra 9:12; Neh 10:30

 

5. Since marriage is for life, neither this constitution nor the constitution of any State shall be construed to permit divorce. (Deut 22:19; Mark 10:9)

 

6. If a married man dies without children, his brother shall marry the widow. If he refuses to marry his brother's widow or deliberately does not give her children, he shall either be slain or pay a fine of one shoe. (Gen 38:6-10; Deut 25:5-10)

 

source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianpolitics/story/0,3605,1163267,00.html

--------------------

 

I wonder why then there are so many ( 50% ) divorces there. I guess they all were ready for commitment too...in the beginning.

 

source: http://www.divorcenter.org/faqs/stats.htm

 

"Divorce in the United States

In 1998 2.2 million couples married and 1.1 million couples divorced.

 

In 2000 58 million couples were married, yet separated.

 

In 2000 there were over 21 million divorces.

 

People between the ages of 25 to 39 make up 60% of all divorces.

 

Over one million children are affected by divorce each year.

 

Approximately 1/3 of divorced parents remain bitter and hostile several years after the divorce.

 

In 1990 the average female age for re-marriage after divorce was 30.6 years; for males, 33.7 years of age.

 

In 1990 the average female age for a second divorce was 37.3 years; for males, 40.4 years of age.

 

More people are part of second marriages today than first marriages."

--------------------------

 

Why is that the U.S.A. is the World leader (number 1) of another kind in the divorce rate Top 100:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/peo_div_rat

 

Btw, in Holland lots of people, already many years ago chose to live together (cohabition)

something that was frowned upon by many Americans back then. A sin Maybe it still is today?

 

And you never know when there might come a day that you meet someone who's so unique and special to you that the thought of her being with anyone else, or of spending a lot of time apart from her, would break your heart, and that being with anyone else is no longer very fulfilling to you either.

 

Sorry Lee, you got to be kidding here but this is really pushing it a little.

What makes you think I haven't met that "unique and special" someone already (before) ? All my girfriends were unique and special to me. I have toured all over the world for the last 35 years as a professional musician for long continous periods of time ( one time up to 8 months solid) while being in a harmonious relation with a very special Argentina woman which lasted for over 10 years.

 

Anyway, we are still the best of friends. We had to break up because her child just could not get used to living in Holland ( boy, did we try) and not because we didn't love each other. (we still do ). Talking about pain, breaking up for this reason, now that really hurts..No-one to blame...

 

I was overjoyed with happiness when she told me she found another lover after we physicaly seperated. I felt great for her and her kid and I wish all three of them all the happiness in the world. Feelings of jealousy or being possesive won't hold me hostage in insecurity. And I celebrate my aloneness when I'm single. I guess you could say I am pretty well balanced in the relationship I have with myself. Lol, and my parrot, the sweetest bird in the world. I love animals. They are so....unconditional !

 

FWIW, I have never cheated on someone while being in a relationship. Ever. Because I believe very strongly in being monogamous. Although the tempations were many and some people even do consider me [cough] a quite attractive guy [cough]

 

In any case, please consider that most people aren't like you in that respect and don't want to be, and there's nothing wrong with that either, so therefore the kind of advice you are giving may not be appropriate for them.

 

Oh Lee, saying those things are proof that the essence of me didn't come across at all. I didn't post my personal experiences here to convert others or looking for approval. Just felt it could have been helpful to share them, giving Ken's ( and probably others as well) situation.

I'll leave the verdict if my 'advice' was appropriate for them entirely up to their discretion, though

 

steelandre.

 

p.s. sorry again all, for this long reply, I guess I totally suck at one-liners. Time to practise them..

[deanmass]

I think Ani and Andre like each other...

 

Maybe you guys could team up, write a relationship book?

 

Wewus, bless you. " I have a small penis, but it works really well..." classic....

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by steelandre:

I also respect the fact that you, so it seems, decline the opportunity to indulge in one in greater detail with me any further. Based on your last reply where you haven't addressed other issues I brought up.

Well I have to say, I do think I'm having a hard time understanding you. I'm not sure if it's the language thing, your English is really good. But maybe it does have something to do with that, because when you post something (at least in this discussion) I THINK I know what you're saying but then you seem to say something different. And I do read carefully.

 

I must say however that it did surprise me that you pretty much agreed with Dan's last post ( a very good one, btw) in which he more or less touched on the same thing I had said before, in different words.

Well, it's not that I completely disagree with what you say. But I mainly took exception to what you were saying to Ken at this time, because I consider Ken a friend and I think I know how he feels right now. And if someone would have said what you said to me in that context, when I was feeling that way, it would have really hurt me.

 

I hope you don't mind if I take the liberty to consider your agreement with him, especially his take on unconditional love, as a pretty much (albeit tacit) agreement of the points I made about that subject as well.

Sort of. It's not that I don't think unconditional love exists or is a good thing. But you didn't use the same context Dan did because Dan acknowledged that real-world relationships are generally different from idealized unconditional love. What YOU said was "imho,the only requirement is to be unconditional towards one another. 'Investment,' as it is demonstrated by many, takes effort. To me, true relations to anyone or anything are effortless." I don't agree with this. Love for someone can feel effortless in itself, but building a life together with someone you love, in the real world, does require effort, and I don't consider that a bad thing.

 

I have never implied that the ego itself is "illusory" let alone denying its existance, anywhere. If I did deny it, then please point me to it. The ego as a phenomenon is very real for many folks, including myself. However, the mind tricks this clown/actor/ magician can play are based on sophisticated illusions and it is to one's own benefit to make that distinction and master or at least contain its destructive powers. And not to become a prisoner of it.

I totally agree that one should strive for this... but I also think we need to come to terms with our egos and not look at them as such a bad thing. That is, we should recognize that we can only go so far in "mastering" our egos and that those "illusions" may have some other value or shed some other light on our souls that we're not appreciating. That's all I'm saying.

 

Please don't take me wrong again but if you would have read my post(s) more thorougly and dare I say it, perhaps more objectively, you also could have arrived at the conclusion that I have not denied the rest of the soul, anywhere.

I never said you denied the rest of the soul! I said you seemed to be denying the potential benefits of the ego.

 

I believe I enjoy the "physical world" at least as much as you do. Soul searching and the road to Self realization doesn't exclude that pleasure.

No, of course not. Soul searching is a constant part of my existence. I think it's just a matter of finding a balance that works for you, and that's different for everybody. We probably don't disagree about that. I simply thought your perspective was out of balance in this case, as it related to Ken's situation.

 

You are confusing path with final Destiny. In other words, you are looking at my finger, not where I'm pointing.

Well I'm not so convinced we all end up at the same final destiny, either.

 

You are also mixing up my personal insight with some sort of philosophy. Philosophy isn't even involved here.

Sure it is. Maybe because of the language barrier we have different ideas of what philosophy is?

 

And what that has to do with me not being married totally baffles me.

It's not just that you aren't married, it's that (in your own words) you "don't believe in marriage." That's a personal philosophy of yours which is different from mine. I'm not married either, but I do BELIEVE in marriage. I would like to be married and I think the person I am would be best fulfilled by being married. You don't feel that way about yourself, so that will lead you to a lot of different conclusions and feelings than it would me. I don't have a problem with that, I'm just pointing it out.

 

You seriously don't think that a single person ( as in alone, not lonely) is incapable of loving, now do you ?

Or that a marriage certificate and wearing a ring is the only licence to true love....

Of course not. Only that they're different kinds of love. I would not expect someone who doesn't believe in marriage to understand very well the needs of someone who does, and vice versa.

 

And I don't think a marriage certficate and a ring are what defines a marriage, anyhow... more on that below...

 

I know that the institution of (holy) matrimony historically has played a significant role and is deeply rooted in American society. A cornerstone, right?

Well this might be the source of some of our miscommunication. I'm not just talking about American society for one thing, the institution of marriage is as old as humanity itself. And I'm not talking about "holy" matrimony as necessarily connected to any religion, even though I do believe in God (not religion) and I do think God has a hand in loving relationships. People can be married in spirit without having an actual piece of paper or ceremony, but marriage to me is the commitment itself, the willingness of two people to build one life together in a loving way, to each know each other as no one else does. If you have a ceremony it's just a way of making that official, to me - of announcing your commitment to the other people in your life that you care about, and formally announcing it to each other. You don't HAVE to do that, IMO, to be "married" in every other sense of the word.

 

All of your quotes about marriage from politicians and religious fanatics don't mean anything to me personally, because most of it has nothing to do with the actual experience of marriage and it probably has nothing to do with what God, if there is one, thinks about it either.

 

I wonder why then there are so many ( 50% ) divorces there. I guess they all were ready for commitment too...in the beginning.

There are a ton of reasons for the high divorce rate here. In actual fact I don't think most people who get married are ready for it. Some should probably not get married at all, others should have gotten married later in life than they did, and a lot marry the wrong person. People often get married because they feel alone and think the act of having a wedding will make them feel less so. Or they get married because they think it's what you're "supposed" to do at a certain prescribed time in life. Or because they think the other person will find somebody else unless they get married.

 

And people often get divorced for what seems to me like pretty trivial reasons too. But many, many people aren't really that serious when they get married, therefore they probably shouldn't have done it. Although there ARE a lot of people who are scared to death to get married, do it anyway, and it ends up to be the best thing they ever did. There are as many different reasons marriages work or don't work, as there are people.

 

Btw, in Holland lots of people, already many years ago chose to live together (cohabition)

something that was frowned upon by many Americans back then. A sin Maybe it still is today?

For some people I guess it is. Not to me personally. Since the 60's a lot of people do live together here though, without getting married. And some live together for awhile and then eventually get married, once they feel they know each other well enough.

 

What makes you think I haven't met that "unique and special" someone already (before) ? All my girfriends were unique and special to me.

I didn't say you hadn't met anybody unique and special. All the boyfriends I've ever had were unique and special to me too, and still are. And like I said, for the most part I was able to love them unconditionally without experiencing feelings of jealousy or insecurity, and let go of them when it was time to. I understand about your relationship with the Argentine woman because I had a similar one and we are still friends, and I'm happy he found somebody else.

 

Well, hooray for me. But I also think the only reason I was able to do that was because on some level I knew we would have to part at some point. Now I know people people who have specific roles in my everyday life, for whom there is no other substitute. People I think it would be wrong to live without - and I don't mean just have them be my friend and maybe live in another country or city, but people I need to be physically present on a regular basis. And yes, that's scary. And yes, it provokes insecurity in me sometimes in a way I've never had before. And no, I couldn't have really seen it coming until it happened. But I wouldn't trade it for anything. I don't feel I could possibly reach my full potential as a human if things weren't this way. Not that I think everyone ought to be the same way as I am... just giving you my own perspective.

 

I love animals. They are so....unconditional !

LOL... yes I love animals too, for a lot of the same reasons. But, I don't really expect humans to be the same way, and that's all right too.

 

Oh Lee, saying those things are proof that the essence of me didn't come across at all. I didn't post my personal experiences here to convert others or looking for approval.

Well, sorry if there was any miscommunication. We are probably more in agreement than it appears, with a few exceptions that probably can be chalked up to having different experiences and personalities.

[Dan South]

Originally posted by Ani:

With a partner/lover it is entirely different. These are people that ELECT to be together willingly. If they subject themselves to pain from the beginning without setting their expectations at a higher levels; then they are codependent and end up settling for what comes their way instead of expecting certains levels of commitment, trust, give and take, and etc in a relationship and accepting nothing less.

 

When relationships are built around TOLERANCE, COVENIENCE, ACCOMMODATION, and other things that are things of this nature; one is selling out and, in a sense, telling themself that they are not worthy of anything better. They are too insecure and afraid of failure, they submit to mediocre and livable rather than holding out for what's right.

 

I agree with all of the above. My point is that these things have nothing to do with love. Love is a thing that exists at another level than these fundamental compatibility issues. People get into trouble when they confuse the two, and I think that that was what Goethe was trying to say with his witty little quote.

 

I can love a person and realize at the same time that I'm completely incompatible with them. I have several longtime female friends who fit this description. My love for them doesn't make me want to be WITH them, because I know that that would not be the best scenario for them or for me. Love transcends the immediate needs of a relationship.

 

When we confuse the two, we say things like, "I love you, but you drink too much," or "I love you, but you hurt me with your lack of communication." The problem isn't love. The problem is that you're with the wrong kind of person, regardless of your feelings for them. You're putting conditions on love, and then it's not really love at all, it's a feeling of attachment, a feeling that we could have with a puppy. The solution is to find someone who you not only love but who also fits you in those fundamental relationship areas, too. Love is not going to make him clean the garage, and if you can't be happy with a messy garage, you're going to be miserable until you find a neat garage guy, no matter how much love you feel for the messy guy. You may always love the messy guy, at least to some degree, but send him off to find a nice messy girl who can accept him without reservation, and everyone will be happy.