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Tahiti or Asia on the cheap...


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OK....

 

I gotta get the $#^%&^$ out of the country for awhile.

 

I guess I'll be traveling alone...

 

I want a beach in asia with clear blue water...

 

I'm thinking Tahiti or some of the beach resorts in Asia. Anyone know some good deals or have a great agent? I've never been to that part of the globe....

 

Anyone wanna come? It would be more fun with a friend!

 

Valky

Valkyrie Sound:

http://www.vsoundinc.com

Now at TSUTAYA USA:

http://www.tsutayausa.com

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I've used my friend's mother, who is a travel agent, for several years and have been quite happy with her. She is in the L.A. area, also. I have no idea if she is the best or the cheapest, but you can always compare prices online anyway, and she may have some good ideas for you. Email or PM me if you want more info about her or any of this.

 

As far as beaches on the cheap, I would recommend going to the south islands of Thailand. The one caveat is that it's humid and sometimes rain during the summer, but is of course beautiful. I assume you're going during the summer? I've been to Koh Samui and Koh Phangan. There are some beautiful beaches, and you can get beach houses for something like US$25 if you go a little more off the beaten path.

 

Also some good bargains in Bali. People are staying away because of the bombing, but check into it and see if people feel it's safe.

 

If you want to see several places in Asia, you might want to look into Cathay Pacific. They often have these killer deals where you can fly to 17 different cities in Asia for $999.

 

And lastly, I would be happy to travel with you except that I am going to Ghana in August (which also has beaches!), and I think that pretty much blows my whole summer $$ and time! I'm traveling solo to Ghana as well in what is turning out to be for some mental clarity and healing as well as culture, music, beaches, cool villages, and wildlife sanctuaries since I just broke up with my girlfriend several days ago and am quite sad at the moment. :cry:

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Sure, I'll come, Valky!!!

 

Hey, Boss, I need a...

 

(BOSS' VOICE) HOFFMAN...WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK WE'RE RUNNING AROUND HERE, A TRAVEL AGENCY? GET BACK TO WORK...and you'd better be working when I get back from my trip to Puerto Vallarta for the...uhh...aviation conference. Yeah, that's it, the aviation conference in Puerto ...uhh..I mean in St. Paul Minnesota...yeah, that's it...St. Paul.

 

:(

"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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Ken, I'm really sorry to hear about yor breakup. :cry:

 

Regarding travel, I'd love to go somewhere but my financial situation is somewhat shaky at the moment. I could afford it but I try to take it easy. Looks like I will travel around my own country (and maybe Denmark) this summer.

 

Last summer I went to Turkey and it was a great trip, recomended!

http://www.lexam.net/peter/carnut/man.gif

What do we want? Procrastination!

When do we want it? Later!

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Originally posted by Mats Olsson.:

Ken, I'm really sorry to hear about yor breakup. :cry:

Thank you. I appreciate that. I am really really hurting inside, but am resilient and will keep on going.
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The South Pacific is expensive. You can sometimes find deals on Cathay Pacific if you're willing to fly to Hong Kong, spend some time there, and make a side trip to some of the exotic islands.

 

On the other hand, the Caribbean is relatively inexpensive, as are the beaches on the Yucatan peninsula in the eastern part of Mexico. Some destinations are "friendlier" than others - some are downright dangerous - but there are plenty of beautiful beaches in that part of the world.

 

Hmm, Ken just broke up with his girlfriend, and Valky seems desperate to get away from California. You don't think...? ;)

 

Just kidding, you guys! :D

 

Ken, man, that's the hardest thing to go through. Major suck factor! I've always found it odd that you can take a week off from work when Aunt Matilda dies even though you haven't seen her for twenty years, but you can't get a day off to grieve for the person who was closer to you than anyone else in the world. There's something wrong with that picture.

 

Brighter days lie ahead, but they may take a while, so keep yourself busy. This wouldn't be a bad time to train for a marathon, write an opera, or become a regular over on the Polital Forum. :D

 

VS: Enjoy your trip, wherever you end up!

 

:thu:

The Black Knight always triumphs!

 

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Originally posted by Ken/Eleven Shadows:

Originally posted by Mats Olsson.:

Ken, I'm really sorry to hear about yor breakup. :cry:

Thank you. I appreciate that. I am really really hurting inside, but am resilient and will keep on going.
Ken bro, there are no words. Just suffice to say that you're a true ace among men, and you certainly deserve the right woman...and if that wasn't her, it's her loss, not yours.
"Cisco Kid, was a friend of mine"
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It will be very hard to find something cheap in Asia/the south pacific booking from here.

If you want a real bargain I expect you may have to show up and work the local scene for options tha dont appear on the web or in travel agencies deals.

 

Northern Thailand is great - unless you require a beach.

 

For a cheap beach try Costa Rica.

 

Good luck

Check out some tunes here:

http://www.garageband.com/artist/KenFava

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Originally posted by Kendrix:

It will be very hard to find something cheap in Asia/the south pacific booking from here.

We were able to book a few things online in the south beaches of Thailand. If you go to islands such as Koh Samui, Koh Phangan, Koh Tao, etc., the beach bungalows are all pretty cheap. This place is really popular with budget travelers and backpackers.

 

On Koh Phangan (also spelled Ko Pha Ngan - it's phonetic, although you don't pronounce the "ph" as a "f" sound but rather as simply a "p"), there's waterfalls on the interior, snorkelling at the northwestern tip...Au Thong Nai Pan Yai is a really good swimming beach.

 

On Koh Phangan, we stayed at The Sanctuary, which was really vibey and fun and secluded. They served really good food and everything was very relaxed. It's a backpacker/neohippie sort of hangout, sort of a new-age oriented spot built into boulders overlooking an intimate cove. You can take yoga, tai chi, meditation, or have a massage. We stayed in #4, which was 400 baht (about $US10). There are more expensive ones, going up to 1600 baht (US$40). The only bummer is that in the summer, monsoon season, there are a lot of mosquitos around at night/dusk. There are a lot of other places to stay at too.

 

Phuket is more of the touristy resort sort of place. I never went there so I don't know how expensive it is. These places ranges from 100 baht to 3500 baht.

 

On Koh Samui, you can stay at resort hotels that are reasonably priced that are on the beachfront. We stayed at a place called Ziggy Stardust (yes, that's right...). It's popular, and you can get huts for 300 Baht to family-sized bungalows with air conditioning for 1000 baht. It was vibey and nice, with a nice garden, and of course, very close to the beach. There are other places next door, such as Smile House and Rasta Baby, all quite cheap.

 

There's a place called Hat Rin, a beach that is famous for its Full Moon Raves. Really fun. Lots of young neohippie international backpackers groovin' to electronic and pop music on the beach at night.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for your support everyone. It's a complicated thing, my breaking up with her. We were together for about 4 1/2 years, and currently own a house together.

 

And Dan, agreed. I did use up a sick day, however, since after all, I wasn't feeling well!!! Anyway, thanks again everyone, Mats, Dan, Tedster, everyone. I do really appreciate the support and kind words. I always treated her with the utmost love and respect, and it IS totally her loss. I don't know - this summer and beyond has erupted into a whirlwind of pain and anger and confusion. Puhhhhhhh.

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Valky, I recommend Koh Samui (my second home) in Thailand or actually Thailand in general, for that matter. I must admit though that I do have mixed feelings about recommending this, because 9 out of 10 people that went there on my recommendation blame me for it now. They came back with a broken heart because they fell in love with a Thai girl or with the country, culture, food and the people in general.

 

On some instances it changed their lives to the point that they could not put up with the stuff back home after visiting there. ( Been there, done that)

 

It is really cool to see Ken/Eleven Shadows name all these places where I actually stayed myself. And btw, Ken, I am really sorry to see you going through rough times with your relationship. I sure hope that you do realise that people can only hurt you if you give them the power to do so. Don't give them control over your emotions because most of them will abuse that kind of power. I know, easier said than done.

English is not my native tongue but I really hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

If you're planning on going back to Thailand around January next year, please let me know. We could set up a cool jamsession at Secret Garden near Buddha Beach on sunday afternoons :cool:

 

One last word of advice to Valky. If you do decide to go to Thailand, don't book your entire hotel stay online. It's too expensive. Just book 1 or 2 nights after your arrival and shop around locally for much better deals.

 

Hoping this post was useful in some way and don't forget that happiness is a choice.

 

steelandre.

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Three words: Bali, Bali, Bali

 

Extremely friendly people, beautiful beaches etc, and my understanding now is that it is very safe to visit. They suffered big time after the bombing so security apparently is very good but not obtrusive.

 

:thu::thu::thu:

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Originally posted by steelandre:

I sure hope that you do realise that people can only hurt you if you give them the power to do so.

But if you don't give someone the power to do so, you'll never be truly close to anyone.

 

I'm so sorry to hear that news Ken. :( Please don't hesitate to write if you want to.

 

Valky, if you really wanna travel cheap, have you thought about signing up for a courier service? If you're willing to be flexible and travel light, you can get tickets to just about anywhere for really really cheap or sometimes even free. Check out http://www.courier.org or http://www.aircourier.org .

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:

But if you don't give someone the power to do so, you'll never be truly close to anyone .

IMHO, not necessarily so, Lee. I fully understand what you are trying to say, though. It depends on the ability of the other person to handle the power 'invested' in her/him. The art of being able to surrender to the concept of unconditional love does not automatically imply that you have to become a victim of it. Wanting to be "close to anyone" all too often ends up in a powertrip and controlling in (western) society. It's all about your, or the other person's, intention of wanting control in the first place. The more you look for approval from someone else about your being, the more likely you will become a victim of it.

 

Giving up the 'power' to control/ manipulate someone emotionally is actually the closest you can get to someone else, really. If the , "what's in it for me" attitude subsides, only then the road to unconditional love is wide open.

 

steelandre.

(wishing he could say the above in Dutch)

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Sorry steelandre but Ken already invested a lot of his time and his heart in his relationship. My point was that you can't tell someone after they've already done that: "people can only hurt you if you give them the power to do so." It sounds nice but it's a load of crap, really, you're just lying to yourself if you try to deny that someone has the power to hurt you after you've spent years loving them. Lying to yourself is ultimately a lot worse than allowing yourself to feel hurt when it doesn't work out with someone you truly cared about.

 

Ken is sad right now and it's fine for him to be sad. It sounded like you were telling him how he's "supposed" to feel and I don't think that's cool or honest.

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I heard from a thread about a thread...

 

Sorry to hear about your loss, Ken. Add me to the list of contacts should you need someone to talk at or to. Though I see that list has grown quite long, you're still welcome to contact me. Just email or PM me for the number.

 

Valky, have you checked out Bahrain? Let's see... beautiful beaches, Western meets Middle-Eastern society, incredible place to purchase gold trinkets. They have a mall of gold jewelry stores. (Not a winding street lined with gold sellers, although they have that too!) The prices are absolutely amazing. Of course you may want to check with the State Department first, to see how safe it is these days. (Haven't been since March, 2002, when we were pretty welcome, despite our involvement in Afghanistan.)

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

Soundclick

fntstcsnd

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well what is it that you want to do? i was in viet nam, cambodia, china, thailand and bali last year. in bali right after the terroists made it go boom! we were the ONLY people staying in our hotel. kinda weird and cool at the same time. bali is the most beautiful place i've ever been to. not that expensive either. PM me if you are interested....

 

-d. gauss

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Thank you everyone! I sorta hijacked the thread......

 

Steelandre, I am afraid that I must side with Lee on this one. I invested time in a relationship for four and a half years, loving someone and enjoying her company. That person has betrayed me very badly. I think that's enough to make all but perhaps the staunchest stoic Vulcan incredibly sad and angry. There's no way to avoid this unless you completely close your heart off to relationships. I can't live like that, even if I run the risk of getting hurt.

 

Where am I now? In survival mode. Just making space for myself while continuing to work out, play music, and keep busy. That's how I have learned to work through the pain. I have a lot of excess energy/anxiety to burn off, so I'm getting into much longer cardio workouts.

 

She wants to try really hard to work it out and says what she did was very low, and had recently started going to a therapist to try and work out her issues. We've had two conversations about it, one just a few hours ago. She basically said that she screwed up so badly that she'll pretty much accept anything that I decide and live with it.

 

I don't know what I'm going to do next, but really, I don't have to. I don't have to have all the answers right away. And so that's the way it's going to be for a while. I am considering a couples therapy session with her.

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Originally posted by steelandre:

One last word of advice to Valky. If you do decide to go to Thailand, don't book your entire hotel stay online. It's too expensive. Just book 1 or 2 nights after your arrival and shop around locally for much better deals.

That's how I travel almost all the time. It's good to have a place to crash for the first couple of days, and after you've seen the place a while, you can always get something else. Obviously, you don't do this if you're, say, flying in for a business convention...

 

Thai people and culture are quite wonderful in many respects.

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Originally posted by Lee Flier:

Sorry steelandre but Ken already invested a lot of his time and his heart in his relationship. My point was that you can't tell someone after they've already done that: "people can only hurt you if you give them the power to do so." It sounds nice but it's a load of crap, really, you're just lying to yourself if you try to deny that someone has the power to hurt you after you've spent years loving them. Lying to yourself is ultimately a lot worse than allowing yourself to feel hurt when it doesn't work out with someone you truly cared about.

 

Ken is sad right now and it's fine for him to be sad. It sounded like you were telling him how he's "supposed" to feel and I don't think that's cool or honest.

Lee, I'm sorry to see you unfortunately have not understood what I was trying to say and think it was "a load of crap". .My post was meant as support for what Ken is going through right now, not criticism towards him by all means. It was not intended to deny him the right to feel hurt. It is a very understandable phase of grieving. I'm not at all denying the fact that people (lovers) can hurt each other in horrible ways. You have obviously missed the part in my first post where I said :"And btw, Ken, I am really sorry to see you going through rough times with your relationship". Actually, in contrast of what you are impying, I acknowledged his pain.

 

My point was that I see a lot of people getting hurt in relationships because , they "invested a lot of time in a relation".

Usually, ( I'm not talking about Ken here but generally speaking ) "investing", according to your opinion on relations, is the keyword here. It implies that there is a profit to be made off of the investment. If the investment doesn't "pay off" people are dissapointed and in pain. "Investing" in a relation is no garantee of a succesful outcome.

What I was trying to make clear is that if they don't expect a reward in return for the investment the relation would possibly be more unconditional. Now, that might come across as uncaring but it is not. If it doesn't work out for two people they should both accept the fact that it was great while it lasted. Another lesson learned. They both might be a lot happier with someone else and that's where the focus should be, inspite of the understandable dissappointment.

 

I actually believe that feeling hurt because someone doesn't appreciate you as a partner or even lie to you or betray you is in fact lying to yourself. It might very well be their loss of losing you, why join them in their suffering? They are obviously not ready for someone like you and you deserve better than that.

 

Let me tell you a little story that really happend here in Holland many years ago when I told a girl I've never met before that "people can only hurt you if you give them the power to do so."

 

I was in a bar one night when a girl stood next to me ordering a drink. She looked very angry and sad. I asked here why she didn't seem to enjoy herself. She told me that her ex boyfriend just had come in and that kind of ruined her night out. Although this guy didn't walk up to her or said anything. I told her to not allow herself to give him the power to ruin her evening especially because it was her ex and the relation was over, as she had told me.

She litterally said to me: " go fuck yourself with your esotheric bullshit" and walked off.

I wasn't offended at all by that remark because I knew that, although she didn't understand what I was saying at the time, she would later on. I was not expecting instant gratification for "my teaching", so to speak. I know it can sometimes take a lifetime.

 

Two weeks later I walked into the same bar and she was sitting at a table with a girlfriend. The moment she saw me, she walked up to me and apologised for her remark two weeks before. She said although she didn't get my message at the time, it kept her thinking all the time after. She realised later on what the purpose of my remark was and now thanked me for opening her eyes. She said that although shock therapy might be painful initially it did wake her up from the pain she was going through. She invited me to dinner and we are still very good friends today.

 

If you feel that my post sounded like I was "telling him how he's "supposed" to feel" you are totally misunderstanding my intentions. If someone that "you truly cared about" hurts you, you have the right to question how much they actually cared about you, right?

 

I'm fully aware of the fact that I have been misunderstood before in this life. It's okay by me and doesn't make me angry. It just goes to show that we all have different experiences and points of reference. All of the above might make me look like I am a coldhearted person who doesn't understand pain, emotions and suffering. The very opposite is true. It's the lesssons in life that made me understand. As the saying goes, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I admit that, in this case, I might have moved to the teaching part a little too soon but when I see such a nice guy like Ken hurting it does bring that out in me in an effort to help ease the pain. Sorry Ken, if I was no help at all.

 

I apologise for being so off topic in this thread and this long post but I had no choice but to reply to your post.

 

respectfully,

 

steelandre.

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I, too, read about this thread in another thread. Valky, wherever you choose to go, just make sure to check out the stability of the territory prior to investing in the travel to that destination. Here is a link to one of the Tourism directories. http://www.towd.com/

 

I understand where it is that Steelandre is coming from in regard to Ken's situation. I also understand where Lee and Ken are at on the same note.

 

Betrayal is an extremely hard factor to overcome when it comes to allowing yourself to trust again; although without forgiveness, a relationship is destined to fail. It takes TWO to make a relationship work and there will be rocky roads to travel along the way.

 

The questions are:

 

Will the one who betrayed do so again?

 

Can you establish that trust again without questioning odd moments that would remind you of the initial pain?

 

Will you be able to bury the grudge and not be tempted to even the score by submitting your passions?

 

Will you feel that your girlfriend owes it to you to do whatever to gain your trust again?

 

Do you feel vengeance in any way?

 

If your girlfriend betrayed you while under the influence of an intoxicating substance; is she willing to address the underlying issues that led her to betrayal?

 

Do you feel a need to prepare yourself for another let down if indeed you do reunite with her?

 

Does her betrayal make you feel inferior in any way?

 

Did you know this girl as a friend prior to romantic relations, and if so, did you ever feel that she would be capable of betrayal then?

 

Do you trust the friends that she hangs out with and do you feel that she was led?

 

Can you allow her time with her friends without having doubts as to where and who she is spending her time with without questioning what she is doing?

 

Do you feel, in any way, responsible for her actions of betrayal?

 

Is she genuine in her remorse or are you being played?

 

There are tons of questions that come about once the barriers of trust have been violated. To forgive and forget is probably one of the hardest things to do in life; but it is essential in being able to continue on with a situation that has developed, if it's worth working for.

 

I have tons of songs that I have written about heartache; both about the betrayal of others and also my willingness to run without toughing through the hard times. When you expect PERFECT, you will never find what you are looking for. I've yet to find the answers myself as to what it takes to make a situation work; but I'm still a fool for believing. If you seek for the negatives, then you end up with nothing.

 

Here are a few lines from one of my soul searching songs about heartbreak...

 

Love Junkie there's a rigid wall around your heart

A block of stone for every tear you've cried

No one can get inside

 

Love Junkie there's a heart of stone too hard to break

But a heart too hard to break

Is a heart too hard to love

 

The full version of the song can be found at http://www.musicbizbuzz.net/mbb/whispers/lovejunkie.htm Forgive the recording quality, as it is for shite on technique and sound quality (it seriously needs to be redone)... but the song has a lot to say about love gone bad and learning to walk away.

 

The more you walk away, the easier it is to do so. Sometimes, if you cut beneath the surface of a stone, you will find a championship diamond.

 

I envy and admire those couples that have connected during their youthful years that seem to have found happily ever after; it's something that has evaded me. Though, in speaking with many of the couples, you will learn that there have indeed been extremely difficult times during their relationships. These situations involve infidelity, substance abuse, lying, obnoxious in-law interference, illness, and many other situations that the couples have been faced with and have managed to overcome and conquer.

 

Once you get into the cycle of running away, sometimes you find yourself running too fast for anyone to want to hold on to. Here's another one of my songs...

 

Game of Hearts

 

It's not as easy as it seems

to pick up where it ended

Feelings might have changed along the way

 

It's sad to play the game of hearts

when hearts have not been mended

It's easier to run than it is to play

 

When you're left with a broken heart

another may walk in

to find the pieces of a broken heart

and break them all again

 

It's not as easy as it seems

to start a new beginning

Suffering has a way to change your mind

 

It's sad to play the game of hearts

when nobody is winning

It's easier to run and leave it all behind

 

chorus repeat

 

© Anita F. Kronk

 

It's really hard to determine how well a couple will conquer the adversity set before them if one decides to run at the first sign of danger. Some of the most beautiful things ever discovered were as a result of traveling the rough roads.

 

As I stated before, I've always been one to run away..... I can't blame those that I've left behind; nor do I try. Finding peace inside of my own heart is something that I've been working on... it's essential in allowing yourself to truly love someone else.

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Ken - sorry to hear it, man. Been there many times, it's a real bitch - but a good heart will heal in time. Let me offer a bit of strength, if I may.

 

If I were you, I'd take Valky's offer. ;) Seriously, having a good friend to travel with could be just the thing.

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Ken. Now I have a better idea of what's going on. Relationships are rocky roads at best. If they're not rocky you're either doing something very wrong or very, very, very right.

 

Most people want to hang tail at the earliest sign of severe trouble. That might be the right thing, or it might be premature. I won't go into the gut wrentching details of what my wife and I went through. Going on 16 years of a very successful marriage now. But it wasn't always easy. There was betrayl.

 

I'll say this as my opinion in the personal trenches: The only way you can succeed in this relationship, especially at this point, is unconditional honesty on all sides: You to yourself, you to her, her to herself her to you. Even both of you to others. It's very often the work of others that bring a relationship to it's knees. You'll have to get others out of it. And you must be willing to be her and she must be willing to be you.

 

Oh yes and I'd get rid of the therapist. Most of them have no idea . . . Cause more problems very often. IMHO!

 

Most people never get to the deeper levels of relationships, in part because they leave when the real work is suppose to happen. But abusiveness is another factor. If the partner is abusive, physically or mentally and it's more than a blip on the eternal screen, they've got way too many personal problems. And you're worth too much to put yourself at such risk.

 

OK I'll go back to my "shut up and do not offend" mode.

 

I personally felt a awesome power of trust finally being able to let my fortresses down to trust someone well enough to give them the power. Relationships create a third power which is the sum-total of the two beings. But you kind of have to be opened in order to allow that to happen. Yes, it's a matter of point of view: being a victim or not. But the other side of the coin is HER. And if you love, you love her, not just yourself.

 

Hang in there Ken. I hope you're takiing all of this advice for the lovelorn in a good manner; as those others who love you.

All the best,

 

Henry Robinett

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Originally posted by Valkyrie Sound:

:)

 

I love ya Ken... but I'm trying to get the #$& out of the US as a break to my own emotional problems! :P:wave:

 

Come with me... we can cry together into the deep blue sea...

 

Valky

Thanks! There's no doubt we'd find the best restaurants in all of Asia! :D

 

Again, thanks to everyone. I'm going to be fine, and all the concern and advice is very helpful and deeply appreciated. It's good to know that people care.

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Originally posted by steelandre:

My point was that I see a lot of people getting hurt in relationships because , they "invested a lot of time in a relation".

Usually, ( I'm not talking about Ken here but generally speaking ) "investing", according to your opinion on relations, is the keyword here. It implies that there is a profit to be made off of the investment. If the investment doesn't "pay off" people are dissapointed and in pain. "Investing" in a relation is no garantee of a succesful outcome.

What I was trying to make clear is that if they don't expect a reward in return for the investment the relation would possibly be more unconditional.

Sigh... yes, I understood perfectly well what you were saying, and I know a lot of people believe it. I'm from California you know - lot of New Agers out there. :D But, sorry I don't have any patience for people who try to re-invent human nature (as if such a thing could be done). The reality is that love between adults isn't unconditional, nor do I believe it should be. People "invest" in relationships because they do (and should) not only want to give but to get. They want to build lives together, they might buy a home together, have children, support each other's life ambitions. These are all things that require "investment" in each other, and the expectation that the other person is going to consider your feelings in their actions. And no, that investment does not have a guaranteed outcome of course. That's the risk of a relationship which is always there. You can try to minimize the risk by not falling too hard too fast, and getting to know the person well before you make a commitment. But the risk is still there and you can't make it go away by telling yourself you don't expect anything from the relationship. That's silly. A truly satisfying relationship DOES require commitment and "investment" in each other. If you don't own up to your own expectations of a relationship, it's a cinch you will get hurt and/or hurt the other person.

 

Life is a lot more complicated than trying to minimize risk and pain at all costs, and so are people. Sometimes the MOST valuable experiences can be gained by allowing yourself to deeply experience pain instead of trying to "make yourself feel better" as soon as possible. Being in a lot of pain sometimes feels like the only appropriate way of showing respect for the depth of a relationship (and that includes respect for yourself, for having chosen that person as a long time partner). It seems from reading Ken's last post that that is in fact how he feels, and personally I respect that. I realize it's not a very popular viewpoint these days but I think it's a valuable one.

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