Have PA Speakers made Keyboard Amplifiers obsolete?

[Reezekeys]

Am I remembering wrong or didn't some of those Peavey amps have a non-defeatable limiter that squashed your sound when you had to turn up past a certain point?

[AnotherScott]

I think the bigger issue, these days, is that covid has made PA speakers obsolete.

 

My two-PA-speaker rig (+laptop & case), at a tiny restaurant I played a while back. No venue I've played has ever had a problem with this.

I've thought about using those little stools too. I wish they were set up so you could permanently attach them and just fold up the legs, I wasn't able to find one that worked that way.

 

I put mine on a black milk crate.

That's another good solution, especially if you use the milk crate to carry stuff, too... so you're not schlepping anything extra AND don't have to worry about where to toss the empty milk crates during the gig. ;-)

 

I was considering 2x RCF TT08 or MS KP408 until I read about Bose S1 Pro.

I haven't heard one, but I would not expect the Bose to give you nearly the volume and bass response of the others.

 

So it's not a straight stereo field then, interesting.

With two speakers behind and on either side of the keyboard player, almost no listener experiences a straight stereo field anyway.

 

why hasn"t any keyboard amp mfg designed an amp that is comparable to the flat broad frequency response of the typical modern PPA?

I tried the Motion Sound KP-408S. I think it's sound quality was on a par with the EV ZXa1. The one-box solution (compared to a pair of EVs plus a mixer) is a nice convenience (if not necessarily a money saver), but even its reasonable 40 lbs is still a bit of a bear to move for me.

 

This JBL Eon One Compact has BT mixing

I think the EV ELX200-12P does as well.

[Delaware Dave]

I bought a Peavey KB5 many years ago when I first started playing keys in my band. It weighs a ton and has a built-in extending handle and wheels. It's a total dud. The dullest, deadest sound of any amp ever made. It's still in the back of my gear closet. I tried to sell it and no takers. I can't even give it away.

I tried one, it sounded awful and actually the KB300 I had in comparison actually sounded 100% better.

 

Am I remembering wrong or didn't some of those Peavey amps have a non-defeatable limiter that squashed your sound when you had to turn up past a certain point?

Yeah, they did have the built in limiter but mine actually got pretty loud before the limiter kicked in.

[El Lobo]

This JBL Eon One Compact has BT mixing

I think the EV ELX200-12P does as well.

It looks like the JBL EON610 does too.

[toescuffe]

You are remembering correctly. I still have an old Peavey with a spring reverb unit built in. I have it set up in a rehearsal space where I never have to move it but a friend often borrows it for his uke! It sounds fine and I really appreciate the 4 band parametric that"s really makes it solid in any room. The only time it fails is when the band is playing really loud and I"m wondering why I can"t cut through and I look over and see that little yellow light flashing with everything I play.

[SteinwayB]

I have taken a somewhat different path. I have been struggling with finding good amplification to make digital pianos listenable. I have been through many PA systems including FBT and most recently RCF TT08 which were good but still sounded like piano coming out of a box. The only great speaker I heard was the Fulcrum Acoustics FA28a's but at >$7000 a pair they were cost prohibitive. I thought about using quality monitors and tried the Focal Alpha 80's but they did not sound better than the RCF's, had less power, no easy way to mount, and exposed drivers. Then I found a pair of Genelec 8050b's used at half-price. These speakers sound incredible, much better than the RCF's. The drivers are protected with grills, the alulminum housing is bullet proof, weight is 28lbs like the RCF's, and I was able to build an adapter so they can be pole mounted. The bass extension is excellent for their size and they play quite loud; plenty for a jazz gig, probably not loud enough for a rock gig.

[The Real MC]

Back in 1990 I bought a used Bose 802 with 802-C processor. The 802 is a PA speaker and it has been my stage monitor for keyboards since day 1. Many people who complain that 802s sound awful have not used them with the 802-C processor. I tried the 802 once without the 802-C and yeah it did sound awful. That 802-C box is crucial.

[AnotherScott]

The Genelecs spec at max SPL of 110 dB, so yeah, not really electric band volume. (The RCFs spec to 128.)

[Stephen S]

You are correct, Dave. We still make the "ac" versions of the FA Portable products upon request.

 

As a general comment on this thread - the PA speaker game has changed quite a bit over the past 10 years or so. There are now a number of really great choices for powered PA speakers at (relatively) modest cost. This was certainly not the case 15+ years ago.

[MotiDave]

PPAs have an advantage of multi-purpose utility as well. Some gigs we need more PPAs for monitors, I"ll throw mine down and we can run a balanced mix with keys so i get both my keys monitor plus vocals and some other bits mixed in (guitar if its far other side). I generally always hear bass well enough no matter where i am, those guys are all deaf i think

[Nathanael_I]

I have Genelec 8351a's in the studio and the Fulcrum Acoustics FA22ac for my PA "tops". This is an interesting comparison because both are active speakers, with built in amps and DSP. Both are coaxial designs that honor the "point source" principle of speaker design. Both are designed by some of the finest speaker designers in the world. They are both "state of the art". They are both marketed with a complete set of performance metrics, including off-axis response, that let you know what the speaker is actually capable of. I own them because they both met the same technical criteria.

 

I had both speakers set up in my studio for some time, side by side. Interestingly, the Genelecs play lower and are solid to about 30Hz in room. The FA22ac's are definitely rolling off at 40hz, but that is normal for PA - one uses subs for this. (My PA has BassBoss subs that are flat to 27Hz - they are also sold with full measurements). The imaging of the Genelecs is exceptional. The tweeter in the Genelec is smoother than the horn in the FA22ac's (no surprise). But I'd have no issues mixing on the FA22ac's. To me, the FA22ac's "feel better" to listen to. The music just feels great and effortless and free. The FA22ac's transient response is shockingly good. They are essentially a very loud reference monitor. And they do go full PA loud, and still sound great. As my drummer said after hearing the full Fulcrum/BassBoss system at 75ft, "That's the best "loud" sound I've ever heard". A mix engineer friend was putting up his mix reference tracks and hearing all the same details as in his control room. They are truly excellent. You can easily judge reverb and compression settings at 75 feet. Choice of piano sample is easily distinguished at 100 feet. It's mind-blowingly good "loud" sound.

 

In the end, the Genelecs are best at being studio monitors. They'd never be loud enough for a gig with a rock drummer or any dispersed audience (like outdoors) - they are in the limiters at 110dB SPL, which sounds like a lot, but not once you are throwing distances and the inverse square law comes into play. The Fulcrum are much better at being used for PA purposes, with great subs, crossed over at 80Hz. Run that way, they deliver better sound than I've heard out of much more expensive PA's (and definitely better than most "studio" monitors".

 

Neither are low cost, but they are also not expensive for the performance they deliver. There are many other products at the same price that do not deliver the same objective and subjective results. If you want the quality of Genelec's best monitors in the form of a PA system? The Fulcrum Acoustics tops with BassBoss underneath will deliver auditory excellence with solid, full volume, no roll-off bass below 30Hz. (Yes, I am willing to deal with industry standard dual 18" subs, not stuff that fits in your trunk...)

[SteinwayB]

I confess I have not gigged with these yet so the concerns regarding volume and projection are certainly valid. My jazz gigs are generally in small to medium venues with a quintet where the horns are NOT amplified. I can say these monitors get quite loud and should have no trouble projecting over the horns. If I have a gig that requires more volume I would likely use IEM's to protect my 59 year old ears.

[Victor_D]

QSC powered speakers will do the trick heaps better

[rickp]

I'm a fan of Gallien-Krueger MB210 bass amps; they're relatively light, look decent on-stage, and provide enough sound reinforcement and center fill to make it unnecessary to sweat getting a good keys monitor mix.  A very small amount of tweaking of the high and low mids on the amps yields a very nice piano sound with no thinning of tone in upper regions, and great sound for organ, pads and strings.  I've also used QSC K8.2's and K8.10's, and still use them set up as monitors in venues that prefer no amp backline.

 

The pic is of 2 GK MB210's and 1 GK MB115 used this past Saturday night (the middle GK is for LH bass).

[Stokely]

Blast from the past!

Based on my (and the band's) last 7-8 years, I'd say that PA speakers made amps endangered (not extinct); and IEMs have made PA speakers a bit scarce.  Only our bass player uses an amp or speaker, and then only sometimes.  I've used my DXR10 only 3 or 4 times.  I'm normally just too close to the drummer to stand it, if I have the option to avoid it.   Also, even on big stages I'm now pretty addicted to stereo monitors!  If I was often on big stages far from a drummer, I'd get another speaker and get the best of all worlds.  I do like the open air energy of speakers.

[RABid]

What I don't like is that the new EV cabinets are adding so much digital stuff that I don't want. Digital effects, digital mixer instead of analog, a small screen and push knob for a menu diving setup, blue tooth. I just want a simple full range speaker with 2 or 3 inputs and maybe a volume knob for each channel.

[The Real MC]

Since the thread activity of 2020, I had moved to a new job and new state.  I knew a guitar player there, we both go back to high school; he roped me into his band.  We were playing some venues with small stages, forcing my hand to acquire a PPA.  I got a QSC KW122 which really sounds good, as good as my Barbetta but louder.  I deliberately chose something with no onboard digital effects, no EQ, no LCD - just a simple mixer with integrated amplifier.

"Keyboard amplifiers" are just outclassed by PPAs.  I no longer want one.

When it involves an electromechanical keyboard like Rhodes, Whurly, Clav, etc it's a different story.  Those can benefit from a tube guitar or bass amp, I like how they color the tone.

[MRkeys]

My experience over 40 years has been limited. 

Had one of the first Peavey kb 300 amps made. Heavy, honky, and didn’t keep up with the huge bass and geetar amps. 

 
So, stacked a pair of Peavey SP2ti. Plenty loud, Heavy and lost some of my hearing. 
 

So, Jbl 15G2. Circa 2000 or so. My monitor and sent to mains also. Started popping (loud!) when any switch was turn off or on in the house.
 
Got an alto TS 308. Actually decent at lower volumes but had a boomy low end I hated for keys. No EQ to fix. This was a lightweight grab for practice and things.

 

A few months ago I got a Yamaha DZR10. Emphasis on the “Z”. Love it!

40 lbs w cover but still easy to carry with the small size and handles. I have always chased EQ with every amp. Not this one. Where ever it gets set still  sounds great! Noticed price dropped after I $$$$ for mine. 
 

Motion sound stuff gets great reviews, would have loved to try one!

[kenheeter]

I use a pair of Mackie DLM8s. They sound great, have kick-back stands built in and can accept a monitor feed and not send it back out to the house. Very compact, tons of power, quiet, small.  I'm very pleased with them.

[Anderton]

Given how easy it is to process keyboard sounds, an FRFR system makes it easier to have the keys sound the same live as they do in the studio.

 

Because I double on guitar and keyboards, I switched from guitar amps to keyboard amps in 1968. It was easier to dirty up the guitar than clean up the synth sounds. In 1999, I started playing through PA amps and that's still my #1 choice. Even did a festival gig with a Bose L1 that had a feed to front of house. 

[cphollis]

When I became a band leader, I lost *all* interest in keyboard amplification.  My digital keys always sound wayyyy better through a nice PA and chi-fi IEMs. 

 

I still bring my CPS SSv3 to casual gigs and plunk it sideways on a stand, side speaker facing down.  Powerful little monster, everyone notices.  Stereo effects like leslie sound awesome, APs not so much.