I think online synth reviews are getting worse.

[Anderton]

Obviously the loops and books are a different thing considering the musical/educational value, but regardless.

 

Please note that none of my products are physical, they're all software downloads, and will be for the foreseeable future. So the environmental impact is the energy you consume downloading it, so you can just pretend throwing money at my products is feeding a tip jar If you're not interested in eBooks/samples/presets/loop, you can give what you got to someone who is.

[MAJUSCULE]

Good point Craig!

 

That being said, sometimes people would rather just send the cash and not have to deal with downloads/emails/etc.

[Dave Bryce]

In addition, brother davedoerfler has graciously agreed to become a moderator for that forum. We'll probably add at least one more...

.,..and brother miden will be joining him.

 

dB

[miden]

Yep I agree with Eric - there should be some way for members to contribute. It's NOT charity at all in my view, we pay annual subs to run various bits of software or use streaming services, and MPN is a service, one that I GREATLY appreciate, haha even if I rankle a few feathers at times

 

Maybe hook up with Paypal so we can maybe just do a recurring weekly payment...it's not like it's for nothing,. as Eric ( I think) was perhaps hinting at, we are getting something quite tangible from the website, even if not object (or product) oriented.

[RandyFF]

Wow, lots to respond to.

 

Dave you asked what to do to promote Gear Lab? I wasn't seeing the big picture, I was only focused on getting more attention within MPN. Like I said, a thread in all the other MPN forums that alert to the review taking place, and then that thread is brought back up to the top of the pile in all of the forums by posting that the review continues and contains these elements. We should at least take advantage within our own forums of the promotion possibilities.

 

Dr. Mike, as a non-analog gear head I have been enjoying your review. You've done what few have ever done, given me, as a beginning student of analog, insight and curiosity regarding a synth I'd never heard of and would have never considered, to the point where I've been wondering if I should make the big effort to get one!

 

For me there's just an overwhelming avalanche of new synths that have flooded the market, haven't really understood why you needed so many flavors. But in your review I start to grok why this one is so insanely fun and sounds incredible, and how accessible it is to not-super-technical people like me (not-very-technical is only in these circles, within the general population I'm above average).

 

So it looks like what you're really talking about is wanting to be compensated for considerable effort and expertise but not wanting to or able to rely on the YouTube means of doing so.

[Dave Bryce]

Yep I agree with Eric - there should be some way for members to contribute. It's NOT charity at all in my view, we pay annual subs to run various bits of software or use streaming services, and MPN is a service, one that I GREATLY appreciate, haha even if I rankle a few feathers at times

Don't we all...

 

Maybe hook up with Paypal so we can maybe just do a recurring weekly payment...it's not like it's for nothing,. as Eric ( I think) was perhaps hinting at, we are getting something quite tangible from the website, even if not object (or product) oriented.

MPN does already have a Paypal account, of course. The MPN Shop would be difficult to run without one.

 

Are you guys suggesting I just post some kind of link to it somewhere and let people send as much $ as they feel like whenever they feel like it? I know I'm an old guy, but that seems a bit odd.

 

I built a Patreon page at one point as well, but never got around to doing anything with it...and they take all sorts of chunks of it.

 

As Craig said - we always figured people would prefer to buy something at the Shop.

 

dB

[MAJUSCULE]

Here's a compromise I just thought of:

 

Depending on whatever the server etc. costs are, you could put an item for purchase in the shop as, say, one day or week or month of those costs. You could have an option for a few different levels and if people felt like it, they could always add several of these time chunks to their shopping cart at once to get to whatever amount they wish. Traffic continues to flow to the shop, maybe someone decides that they actually do want this or that piece of merch, if not, there's still the concrete feeling of paying for a specific length of forum costs and contributing to the ongoing vitality of the community.

 

Does that crap stick to the wall or nah?

[RandyFF]

Charity? Considering the model of the internet is to be mostly free of charge, that alone demolishes previous ways of earning money / being compensated for time/resources spent. And considering it's giants like Google that are the main beneficiaries of this system, the old notions of embarrassment for asking for charity don't apply.

 

Craig, you've done all of this forever. I remember the Expert reviews on Harmony Central, which is the format of GearLab- love it! You've done this long enough that if you feel like it amounts to begging or charity when you need financial support, then something is rubbing you the wrong way. I mean you're delivering quality, well-reviewed product, your worth should be evident.

 

Asking to be compensated for top level reviews is hardly charity. Its just the business model hasn't matured or come forward yet. We are still in the early early days of the internet.

 

One model that comes to mind is what Sweetwater and some of the larger music stores are doing. They make money off of the sales, so this is a form of advertisement, which can be written into operating costs. So being employed by a music store is one avenue. This of course has its compromises, particularly needing it to more upbeat than studious, and on the shorter side. The advantage however is getting know to a larger public and hopefully getting your foot in the door with manufacturers.

 

It's mostly uncharted territory re the manufacturers.

--- A HUGE problem with modern boards is how complex they are, and depending on your tech capabilities, how daunting and inscrutable they can be. So you and your merry band of co-collaborators produce fun-to-watch video instruction manuals.

--- And the prequel to the video manuals is the review of the board you've done that highlights its features and gives you the basic orientation for getting around on the board, the Quick Start guide. So that someone who's watching / reading the review gets the sense of being able to get busy with the board! That sells!

 

Basically you form a production company that does

- Video manuals sponsored by manufacturer

- In-depth product review that is the prequel to the video manual and give basic operation overviews, sponsored by music store and manufacturer

- Full-production video promotions paid for by manufacturer

- Consultant to manufacturer for creating product lines

 

You become a one-stop-shop for reviews / quick-start guides, video manuals, promotion and consulting.

 

And the point of a company like this is that you're JUST large enough that you can have a proper business manager. Unlike one-man-shows, you're not stuck doing everything, and hopefully you're doing the jobs you're the most suited for.

 

And who says YouTube has the absolute monopoly. Build it into your model that talented folks who come under your production umbrella get their share of credit and compensation, like any number of video and audio production companies. Easier said than done, but there are business models where you've got significant resources from the manufacturer that make this possible.

 

For example, one of the big three, possibly Roland, wants a more iphone level of popularity. To crack the mass market would be revolutionary in the music industry, there's no real precedence. Even a partial success at this would open a floodgate of funding and future projects. Cracking into the mass market could be part of the business model, at the least it's one angle to pitch yourself to the manufacturers.

 

Possibly this gets too commercial at some point, you're more like the publicity department than journalists doing a review. But, so what? At different stages of this evolution of the business model it'll feel like writing ad copy. But at other stages, when this production company has better established itself, you'll be known for awesome video tutorials and quick start reviews/guides. Not everything will be commercial, it's new territory to define, and only as a group would you have the resources to make this happen.

 

Much more to say but best to get this off.

 

Randy

[Dave Bryce]

Here's a compromise I just thought of:

 

Depending on whatever the server etc. costs are, you could put an item for purchase in the shop as, say, one day or week or month of those costs. You could have an option for a few different levels and if people felt like it, they could always add several of these time chunks to their shopping cart at once to get to whatever amount they wish. Traffic continues to flow to the shop, maybe someone decides that they actually do want this or that piece of merch, if not, there's still the concrete feeling of paying for a specific length of forum costs and contributing to the ongoing vitality of the community.

 

Does that crap stick to the wall or nah?

Nah. The server is not the issue. Paying the best guys I can find for their work is more what the income stream is about.

 

dB

[Anderton]

Basically you form a production company that does

- Video manuals sponsored by manufacturer

- In-depth product review that is the prequel to the video manual and give basic operation overviews, sponsored by music store and manufacturer

- Full-production video promotions paid for by manufacturer

- Consultant to manufacturer for creating product lines

 

You become a one-stop-shop for reviews / quick-start guides, video manuals, promotion and consulting.

 

We've actually thought about this! We have enough experienced people to create a Media Services company, and Lord knows, the music industry could use this The hard point is going to be selling the ideas to companies. This is something I've done forever, people know who I am and what I do...just today, another company approached me about needing documentation.

 

If we can do this for a few companies and show we can do it, the next step will be turning away all the people who want it. Easier said than done, though...

[MAJUSCULE]

Here's a compromise I just thought of:

 

Depending on whatever the server etc. costs are, you could put an item for purchase in the shop as, say, one day or week or month of those costs. You could have an option for a few different levels and if people felt like it, they could always add several of these time chunks to their shopping cart at once to get to whatever amount they wish. Traffic continues to flow to the shop, maybe someone decides that they actually do want this or that piece of merch, if not, there's still the concrete feeling of paying for a specific length of forum costs and contributing to the ongoing vitality of the community.

 

Does that crap stick to the wall or nah?

Nah. The server is not the issue. Paying the best guys I can find for their work is more what the income stream is about.

 

dB

 

Sure, it doesn't have to be labeled as "server costs", but whatever you want to call it, it would be a pre-determined amount for an item which would only exist in name.

[Dave Bryce]

Craig is right.

 

We've actually been trying to beat this concept into a digestible, marketable form for, well, months. Where we've gotten stuck is beiung able to demonstrate the value of the Gearlab, mainly because we haven't been that successful in getting the community to engage.

 

If there were a whole bunch of people poking around and commenting on that absolutely fabulous Hydrasynth review that Mike Metlay just did, it'd be easier to show the value to other manufacturers. The community participation is a huge key...and without it, thew cioncept justy isn;t that interesting to the manufacturers.

 

We figured for sure something as cool as the Hydrasynth would get a ton of attention, and Mike really did nothing short of a killer job. Mike actually moved Heaven and Earth to lay hands on one and hold onto it for a while - they're kind of hard to get at the moment.

 

Go check it out...and please...leave a comment.

 

dB

[RABid]

Take a look at some of the other sites, and some of the revenue streams that other sites and YouTub creators enjoy.

 

Talk Bass forums have levels ranging from free to gold. Supporting level allows you to post items for sell and increases your message box. Gold level eliminates adds. It seems to work really well for them. Talkbass has a lot more adds than MPN, but they seem to be careful about the type of adds. I never have a problem with aggressive adds on that site.

 

Patreon - While I hate YouTube channels that frequently beg for Patreon membership, there are a few that do it right. Example, Cuckoo gives Patreon donators access to the samples and patches that he normally sells.

 

Amazon Affiliate Program - I know what you are thinking. ... "Has RABid lost it? ... But just listen. YouTubers are making good money reviewing products and putting in links to the product on Amazon. They get a cut of sales. A small cut, but when 1000 people follow the link. And it is not just a cut of that linked item, it is a cut of everything the person buys when they follow the link. Just think about it. Sign up. Put a link at the bottom of the page for the popular forms. Or maybe a banner ad. You don't have to review anything, link one of Craig's books. Then someone like me that want to help support the forum can come here and click the link before shopping at Amazon. Does not cost me a penny. The forum gets 3 to 8 percent of my total, depending on the type of items I buy. It is a way to support the forum without costing me anything.

[Dave Bryce]

Sure, it doesn't have to be labeled as "server costs", but whatever you want to call it, it would be a pre-determined amount for an item which would only exist in name.

 

I just can't get around the fact that it feels weird making up a phantom product to get $, and arbitrarily picking a pre-determined amount isn't something with which I'm comfortable....just like you're not comfortable buying a beanie. Just not how we're wired...

 

Sorry...I totally get what you're trying to do and completely appreciate it, but it just seems to me there's a better solution. We'll find it.

 

dB

[MAJUSCULE]

Fair enough! I wonder how your son would feel about it...

[RandyFF]

Basically you form a production company that does

- Video manuals sponsored by manufacturer

- In-depth product review that is the prequel to the video manual and give basic operation overviews, sponsored by music store and manufacturer

- Full-production video promotions paid for by manufacturer

- Consultant to manufacturer for creating product lines

 

You become a one-stop-shop for reviews / quick-start guides, video manuals, promotion and consulting.

 

We've actually thought about this! We have enough experienced people to create a Media Services company, and Lord knows, the music industry could use this The hard point is going to be selling the ideas to companies. This is something I've done forever, people know who I am and what I do...just today, another company approached me about needing documentation.

 

If we can do this for a few companies and show we can do it, the next step will be turning away all the people who want it. Easier said than done, though...

 

Yeah, look at guys like Rich Formodoni. He does an OK job, he just seems continually stretched too thin.

 

Bottom line, the PR departments are not taken seriously. This mentality needs to start from the company, that you're not just selling potential, you've providing a road map and friendly assistance as well. That message alone puts you in the same sphere as Apple, the original selling point, that you provide awesome, beautiful technology that's user friendly. And that creates a groundswell of interest. That's what your selling the heads of the companies, not just department managers.

 

Well done video manuals have the potential to transform this industry.

[Anderton]

Damn, that's an insightful post.

[Dave Bryce]

Take a look at some of the other sites, and some of the revenue streams that other sites and YouTub creators enjoy.

 

Talk Bass forums have levels ranging from free to gold. Supporting level allows you to post items for sell and increases your message box. Gold level eliminates adds. It seems to work really well for them. Talkbass has a lot more adds than MPN, but they seem to be careful about the type of adds. I never have a problem with aggressive adds on that site.

 

Patreon - While I hate YouTube channels that frequently beg for Patreon membership, there are a few that do it right. Example, Cuckoo gives Patreon donators access to the samples and patches that he normally sells.

 

Amazon Affiliate Program - I know what you are thinking. ... "Has RABid lost it? ... But just listen. YouTubers are making good money reviewing products and putting in links to the product on Amazon. They get a cut of sales. A small cut, but when 1000 people follow the link. And it is not just a cut of that linked item, it is a cut of everything the person buys when they follow the link. Just think about it. Sign up. Put a link at the bottom of the page for the popular forms. Or maybe a banner ad. You don't have to review anything, link one of Craig's books. Then someone like me that want to help support the forum can come here and click the link before shopping at Amazon. Does not cost me a penny. The forum gets 3 to 8 percent of my total, depending on the type of items I buy. It is a way to support the forum without costing me anything.

Here's another obstacle that you guys may not be considering:

 

MPN as it has been for the past decade and change was not designed to be nor run as a money-making business. That's why we were able to get it away from the Future guys. I believe TalkBass was designed with making money in mind, first and foremost. So were pretty much all the sites you just mentioned. All of them have budgets to pay people to run them. We don't.

 

We rescued the forums to save the forums, now the main goal is to find a way to get better content and make MPN a cooler place to hang. Make sense?

 

Yeah, sure...maybe the goals need to change some. We're trying to find a way to do that without disturbing the groove here. That's really important; otherwise, this page would be covered in banners, like some other music forums.

 

 

Bottom line, the PR departments are not taken seriously. This mentality needs to start from the company, that you're not just selling potential, you've providing a road map and friendly assistance as well. That message alone puts you in the same sphere as Apple, the original selling point, that you provide awesome, beautiful technology that's user friendly. And that creates a groundswell of interest. That's what your selling the heads of the companies, not just department managers.

 

Well done video manuals have the potential to transform this industry.

 

dB

[Groove On]

How are you choosing products for the online store so you don't become a competitor for potential advertisers? That sounds like an awkward line to walk.

[nursers]

Yeah I've got to fully agree with what Eric says. I pay out US $10 a month to one author to allow him to write his next book and in return 'all' I get is emails with the chapters as he writes them and a character with my name on it. he's not some amateur, and I don't begrudge it because I get a lot of it but none of it's physical product. I mean, I just released an album and a bunch of kind people bought the digital download even though they didn't need to.

 

I think it'd be worth a discussion on how a Patreon or equivalent approach would work. It doesn't mean content needs to be locked off from people, or you could even throw merch in as a yearly reward. There's all sorts of options

 

(edit: when you don't realise there's another whole page of discussion that says what you were trying to say better )

[Groove On]

Spitballing but what about a Music Player Youtube Channel? Don't go nuts polishing it, give us the good, the bad and the ugly. Just pick a topic and videoconference/livestream it for 10-20 minutes and point people to the website. Use whatever moderators are available - or invite a special guest. For example, I'd love to hear you guys jawing about the walloping music gear sales during the lockdown. After that fact, you can quick edit the stream and upload the edited "good bits". But we don't need polish, just do it authentically. This will at least drive people to the website and give it a higher profile.

 

Examples of what that might look like - Joe Rogan, Tim Pool, Hoover Institution, What Da Math and Dave Rat.

 

One reason to just "do it" - warts and all, is that it will get you feedback into what people are interested in. You can fine tune it over time.

[Anderton]

Let me pull things back into reality for just a second.

 

We do this because we love it. My Sound, Studio, and Stage forum has been going since 1995, so I've had over 25 years to bail if I didn't love it

 

The issue is, can we take this to the next level where it can be our gig? Where it's the first thing we do in the morning, and the last thing at night?

 

Can we support ourselves doing what we love, and what we think other people might love as well?

 

Do people even love what we love enough to support it?

 

We'll keep this going no matter what, but damn, I'd sure like to take this not just to the next level, and several levels beyond that.

 

But do people even want that? My sense is...

 

Maybe.

 

Then the next question is whether they attach value to it. My time is worth so much to me - I'm on the wrong side of the mortality curve, and I still have much more to share - but who knows whether it's worth much to anyone else. Maybe "10 COMPRESSOR TIPS YOU MUST KNOW OR YOU WILL DIE!!!" on YouTube is what they want. And that's fine, too, because then I can spend more time in the studio, and swimming, and being with friends, instead of trying to figure out how to make MPN.com go where we want it to go.

 

And now, it's off to the studio for more on my 2020 project...knowing full well that probably most, if not all, of you have never heard the 2016, 2017, 2018, or 2019 projects. But I sure had a good time recording them Ultimately, isn't that what matters? It's what matters to me, and to the people who want to hear what I'm up to next...because every year is different.

 

We'll see what happens.

[Dave Bryce]

I think it'd be worth a discussion on how a Patreon or equivalent approach would work.

 

As mentioned in an earlier post, I created an MPN Patreon page a while ago - just never did anything with it. It's live, though.

 

 

Spitballing but what about a Music Player YouTube Channel?

 

MPN YouTube Channel

 

Craig is absolutely correct when he says that the main motivation for us doing this is because we love it. He's also right when he says it would be killer if we could find a way to make this our main gig, and we are actively exploring whether we can achieve that goal.

 

That would be so cool. We have so many good ideas, you can't believe.

 

dB

[Groove On]

Spitballing but what about a Music Player YouTube Channel?

MPN YouTube Channel

dB

Any plans to have a Music Player show that's Joe Rogan / Tim Pool style? Something that's conversational on current topics? They certainly get the numbers. Heck, you could start getting up every morning, starting today and I'd tune in.

[MAJUSCULE]

Though there's no video, I highly recommend David Holloway and CowboyNQ's podcast "The Keyboard Chronicles".

 

And btw, I realized you could pledge to the Patreon without any rewards tiers selected. So yeah, while some of you might have the whole "I joined the forum in the year 2000" brag, I can say that I'm the first official MPN Patron

[nursers]

Though there's no video, I highly recommend David Holloway and CowboyNQ's podcast "The Keyboard Chronicles".

 

Thank you kind sir. And to link in with the discussion on this thread, I've just posted something on lessons learnt with the podcast down on the podcasting forum. We don't do video, because for what we do it just plain isn't needed and most people listen to podcasts in their car or whilst exercising etc.

[RichieP_MechE]

And btw, I realized you could pledge to the Patreon without any rewards tiers selected. So yeah, while some of you might have the whole "I joined the forum in the year 2000" brag, I can say that I'm the first official MPN Patron

I've just claimed the #2 spot

[Dave Bryce]

Any plans to have a Music Player show that's Joe Rogan / Tim Pool style? Something that's conversational on current topics? They certainly get the numbers. Heck, you could start getting up every morning, starting today and I'd tune in.

I would actually love to do that. Hanging out with the brethren on Zoom, combined with a podcast I did a few days ago with a few friends from the hip-hop industry (damn, that was fun!) have got me thinking about doing that. Just have to figure out a few details.

Hey, y'know...I'm the Director of Sales and Marketing for the company that makes Cloudlifters. We could probably sponsor it, too.

Hmmmm...

@Eric and Rich - thank you both.

 

dB

[jazzpiano88]

Any plans to have a Music Player show that's Joe Rogan / Tim Pool style? Something that's conversational on current topics? They certainly get the numbers. Heck, you could start getting up every morning, starting today and I'd tune in.

I would actually love to do that. Hanging out with the brethren on Zoom, combined with a podcast I did a few days ago with a few friends from the hip-hop industry (damn, that was fun!) have got me thinking about doing that. Just have to figure out a few details.

Hey, y'know...I'm the Director of Sales and Marketing for the company that makes Cloudlifters. I could probably sponsor it, too.

Hmmmm...

@Eric and Rich - thank you both.

 

dB

 

This would be gold! The right host interviewing key players, influencers and visionaries over the history would be compelling and a great documentation of history.

I don't think the Joe Rogan model is the one to shoot for. Joe interviews mostly unknown up and comers in comedy and commentary (there are exceptions).

 

I would go with the Lex Fridman model where he spends 1-2 hours with the main contributors and influencers to the field (in his case AI).

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/user/lexfridman/videos

[Dave Bryce]

I would go with the Lex Fridman model where he spends 1-2 hours with the main contributors and influencers to the field (in his case AI).

That sounds like the podcast Dave Holloway is doing.

 

dB