HALion vs. Gigasampler

[Salyphus]

I sure would love to see Giga on the Mac platform as well, fwiw [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by seclusion: [b] Ya maybe.. I'm runnin a 1 gig 512 ram 3 drive on a raid system just for giga.. I doubt that if Logic(My other system) could handle that kind of abuse.. that even the dual processors are gonna flub still trying to pump out midi and audioand sampling and plugs.. Realize that I just set up my Gargitian Strings CD.. 15 F'in cd's loaded with awsome String stuff... Man ya gotta get that load off a main computer.. I still do 24-30 tracks of audio too.. Giga just purrse along nicely on it's own.. And I can eventually run 2 more 40 or 60 gig drives and load em up internally and not worry bout anything over heating.. ESX etc has a long way to go.. Brian[/b][/quote] Why do you have to "get that load on off a main computer?" I don't use my computer for recording or mixing, only MIDI, virtual instruments, and editing or occasionally processing a few tracks through plugins. Nothing a late model Mac can't handle. EXS24 and ES1 work well with my Logic sequencer. Halion may be worth a look, but I've had trouble integrating pure VST stuff into Logic. (NI stuff works great, though.) In other words, there's no freaking way I'm going to buy a hot, noisy, power gobbling PC (plus memory, audio interfaces, disks, etc) to sit there and play back Giga samples. Maybe it's worth it for your application, but not mine. Complexity is the enemy.

[soapbox]

Has anyone tried Gigasampler libraries with HALion yet?

[dansouth]

I'm working with a freeware version of HALion. It's called HALitosis. It's not the most attractive program, but a new version is released every morning.

[seclusion]

Untill you've heard the Gartian strings emsemble I can't emphasize how deep gigastudio is and can go.. Halion just looks at the 15 cd's and doen't know where to start.. We are talking about streaming possibly more than 2 gigs off a drive almost imediatlly.. I've read somewhere that Halion can't handle huge samples.. I've been using giga 96 reliably on it's own puter since July.. Rock solid and the interface is so simple. I've heard of people running logic, or Nuendo, Cubase etc. And gigastudio all on the same puter... For me I have over 60 gigs of samples.. And for "SIMPLICITY" in keeping my self sane.. I record in logic on a totally separate system so I don't accidentally mix them up.. Well that and I'd have to have lets see.. 1 raid array running 2 40 gig drives, another raid array running 2 30 gigs and a C:/ drive.. opps conflict, overheat.. My giga external sampler with dual 17" monitors and a mouse plus again over 60 gig's of Quick sound finding samples is also upgradable too and soo easy to edit... My drives are full I may be looking at one of them "Median" 4 drive raid external 1 rack mount drive systems that host up to 180 gigs for $1200 approx.. Incidentally I just have to plug that rack mount drive in the back of my raid card/ format and say an hr or 2 later, load her up. Oh yeah.. I'm really quiet.. Quietpc.com does power supplies, drive covers and chip fans... I do know there is a puter in my studio... Cause I have 2 17"ers lookin back at me. Puters are almost silent. Brian [ 11-28-2001: Message edited by: seclusion ]

[fv_dup1]

FWIW, I've tried Gigastudio, Halion (1.1), and currently own exs-24. It's interesting how so many people are quick to say "A is better than B" or "B is better than C". Really, it is more that "A is better than B - when doing this or when you need this". Similar reason why there are different kinds of hammers. You wouldn't use a sledgehammer to drive in a 1 inch nail would you? If any of these products suits your purpose than it is the best product for that purpose. None of these has to be the best for *everything*. While Halion and the exs-24 are quite similar to each other, for hanlding lots of extremely large samples (like the Garritan string library which I have not tried yet), GS is better suited IMHO. Many people who don't do large orchestral arrangements on computers using samplers and GS don't understand why. Anyway, I find that Halion and exs-24 are great when dealing with regular sample libraries (a-la S1000, E-mu, etc.). I love the fact that I can go back to a project and have all of my samples loaded when I load a song (I'm using Logic Audio btw) ready to go. No fumbling about with CD-Roms or storing full bank loads on a "projects" hard drive to load. Also, most of the samples seem to load faster. I don't see enough difference between exs-24 for me to want to buy Halion as well. I do plan on buying Gigastudio in the new year some time. This is a big reason why the soft-samplers have been so popular. I still think that hardware samplers have their benefits too and each has its own unique sound. ie, I use an E-mu E-5000 Ultra as well and some of the programming you can do on it is impossible to do on the exs-24 or the Halion. The filters sound better to me too. As you can see, each has its own strengths and weaknesses. When choosing a new sampler, softsampler, or Gigastudio, you need too look at your needs and buy the product that suits them the best. YMMV. Just MHO anyway, fv

[m2]

[quote]Originally posted by soapbox: [b]Has anyone tried Gigasampler libraries with HALion yet?[/b][/quote] I tried converting the GigaPiano using Halion, and it came out all fucked up! So, I'm sticking with Gigasampler. Macle

[soapbox]

Thanks [b]Macle[/b].

[soapbox]

By special request...BUMP!

[dansouth]

[quote]Originally posted by seclusion: [b]Untill you've heard the Gartian strings emsemble I can't emphasize how deep gigastudio is and can go.. Halion just looks at the 15 cd's and doen't know where to start.. We are talking about streaming possibly more than 2 gigs off a drive almost imediatlly.. I've read somewhere that Halion can't handle huge samples.. I've been using giga 96 reliably on it's own puter since July.. Rock solid and the interface is so simple. I've heard of people running logic, or Nuendo, Cubase etc. And gigastudio all on the same puter... For me I have over 60 gigs of samples.. And for "SIMPLICITY" in keeping my self sane.. I record in logic on a totally separate system so I don't accidentally mix them up.. Well that and I'd have to have lets see.. 1 raid array running 2 40 gig drives, another raid array running 2 30 gigs and a C:/ drive.. opps conflict, overheat.. My giga external sampler with dual 17" monitors and a mouse plus again over 60 gig's of Quick sound finding samples is also upgradable too and soo easy to edit... My drives are full I may be looking at one of them "Median" 4 drive raid external 1 rack mount drive systems that host up to 180 gigs for $1200 approx.. Incidentally I just have to plug that rack mount drive in the back of my raid card/ format and say an hr or 2 later, load her up. Oh yeah.. I'm really quiet.. Quietpc.com does power supplies, drive covers and chip fans... I do know there is a puter in my studio... Cause I have 2 17"ers lookin back at me. Puters are almost silent. Brian [/b][/quote] Brian, do you have a mix or two or three that we could check out?

[soapbox]

A lot of folks are starting threads about this subject now, so...BUMP!

[KikkyMonk]

Im actually more confused then when I started. All this talk about terabyte's worth of samples is making me nauseous. I think I'll fully research it when its time for me to make a decision. Thanks Dave

[Anderton]

I've loaded Gigasampler libraries successfully into HALion on Windows, and surprisingly, on my Mac G3 PowerBook. But there are a few cautions. HALion seems to have a hard time with compressed files, and with samples spread over multiple CDs. The solution in both cases requires Gigasampler, as you need to save an uncompressed version in the first instance, or load the CDs and save as one file in the second instance. What I like best about HALion compared to GS is that as a plug-in, it works within the frameworks I like to use - SONAR and Cubase. Also, the editing is very well done; it's quite easy to use, and it has been very reliable for me. In fact, the more I use it, the more I like it... This isn't a knock on Gigasampler, which is a more ambitious program, and requires corresponding computer resources. But don't sell HALion short. Being able to load Giga, Akai, E-mu, and Sound Fonts as well as regular WAV and AIFF files has really opened up a lot of possibilities for me that I didn't have before. The Akai translation is excellent, btw.

[seclusion]

[quote]Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com: [b] Brian, do you have a mix or two or three that we could check out?[/b][/quote] I'm getting there.. I'm learning a bit more first.. I've only used it on a few commercial spots, that doesn't show it's abilities... Plus I'm finding I feel like going to giga 160 so I don't have to dump 2-3 sample tracks to logic all the time.. I'm hoping this'll come together during Christmas. God I can't believe I've done a few tunes withOUT guitar.. Man I know I couldn't of said that even a few months ago.. FYI, I converted a couple of Akai 1000 string samples too.. Peter S(sorry I forget the rest). Orchestral strings Vol1.. I know they've been around a while but they are really noisy.. The Gartian Strings are 24bit, and sound so clear.. I'll get something up Asap.. Brian Realize too this is a 3rd party sample and the 16 cd library costs over $1600 Canadian.

[John Sayers]

It appears that the second puter just running gigastudio is the way to go. A friend recently played me the most rich full musical creation which was mainly coming from gigastudio on it's own puter. Fantastic - the bosendorfer (spelling??) piano is amazing but its a 1 gig sample. Can't wait to hear the strings you are talking about. Come to think of it - that was probably what I was hearing. :) cheers john

[soapbox]

Bump (by request).

[usicMa]

So, more importantly, who is "requesting" these bumps? :) can you tell them to keep asking you to bump this thread for me....Cool Thread!

[Squids]

I have both HALion and Gigastudio and love them both. The EXS24 is also really cool. Are there any rules that say you can only pick one? Ok, your budget maybe. Still, most people just a few years ago could fork over thousands for their studio so it's all relative. This stuff is CHEAP by comparison to the hardware. The thing I would consider is what sounds you are really getting for your money. After all the specs alone don't make music, but sounds at your fingertips is another story. I am bringing this up because that's what I do. I am a sound developer. I make Akai libraries so you could use one of my company's libraries with any of the softsamplers- I am unbiased. But, a sampler without the sounds is a shell with possibilities- a blank slate. Now, these days samplers at least come with some sounds. How good are they though for the money? Will those sounds cover your needs? Probably not. You'll need to buy some sample libraries to make those products really do something for your music chances are. If you want a sample player that does come with a lot of the sounds you probably want then you might want to consider SampleTank and-or our very own Sonic Synth (which comes with SampleTank LE but has Sonic Reality sounds in it). Over 2 gigs of highly usable sounds I am talking about with integrated DSP effects. For some you could get this instead of a softsampler (especially if you want to PLAY more than tweak) and for others like me you could have this and a couple other VSTi samplers or GigaStudio. Each instrument has it's postive points that might mean something to you. But, in all fairness, I thought someone should bring this up. Figures it would be someone who makes sounds and has a sample player VSTi that just came out! :) Forgive me, I am just trying to hip you to some aspects of software sample playback if you didn't know already. If you care to read about this stuff go here: http://www.sonicreality.com

[Dan South]

[quote]Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy: [b]Just a little word to the wise from someone on the inside... Giga is going to be getting...um...quite a bit cooler sometime soon.[/b][/quote] Okay, Jeff, it's like January, now. Just when IS it that Giga is going to be getting...um...quite a bit cooler? I haven't seen any big announcements from NAMM. I might as well buy HALion today and hack on that for six to nine months while I'm waiting for this new revelation to materialize.

[Alndln]

All I know is when I load one sample into a VST sampler my cpu registers between 20-30%,when I do the same with Giga my cpu meter doesn't even register,not to mention that VST romplers aren't entirely stream based like Giga and eat more ram as well.I need my Ram and Cpu for plugs/tracks/Vsti's.I'm basing this on the free piano Sampltank Rompler v/s Giga and not Halion.I also like the Giga editor for creating my own samples and not sure if Halion or the EX has the equivlent.For me so far I'm happy with Giga and have found no reason to switch or get both.

[seclusion]

Sorry I'm late on the little sample of the strings.. They have this Majestro Strings thing, that lets one take control of the samples even further.. (Bowing up and down). I'm trying to get it all in my brain.... That's why when people spell my name brain I'm very quick to correct them.. Brian Possibly Sunday night.. There is a very good sample of Gigastudio on the [url=http://www.northernsounds.com]www.northernsounds.com[/url] forum Someone there did a little take totally in giga... Sounds pretty good... I'm trying to top it.. Later :confused:

[Brittanylips]

[quote]Originally posted by Jeff, TASCAM Guy: [b] Giga is going to be getting...um...quite a bit cooler sometime soon. [img]http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] - Jeff[/b][/quote] Enough with the crap, now port the damn thing to Mac OS X. NOW!!!!!!!!!!!! (and then I'll buy it). Please.... Thanks, B-Lips

[jomag2000yahoo.com]

Unity which was/is vey popular on the Mac, is coming out with a Giga library compatible program for all you MacHeadz :D . It should make you all happy now that you dont have to tread into PC territory. The guys at Bit Headz really spoke about Giga with alot of respect even though they are competitors, Way Cool Dudes. Its called Unity Session and will list for about $649. I'm still excited to hear what Tascam will be doing with Giga Now the designers can refocus on software design. I definitely wouldnt underestimate them. It seems that the Giga is becoming the new standard in sample format. It makes sense that HALion, and Unity Session will support/ convert them, Hopefully EXS will follow also. AKAI format just isnt enough anymore. Wouldnt it be odd if AKAI's new samplers could read Giga libraries, with 512 megs of ram they should have no problem. jOmAg

[Dan South]

I have no problem buying a Giga system if necessary, but I'd like to try a more efficient approach than buying a PC, a PC monitor and keyboard, PC memory, a PC SCSI adapter, a PC hard drive, and a PC sound card. I'd rather just buy a program for the Mac hardware that I already own (multiple machines). I would REALLY like to get some impressions of FIRST HAND USE of HALion 1.1 with the Giga libraries, but I've been asking this question for a while without getting any responses. Isn't there ANYONE out there who's using HALion 1.1 this way? ANYONE? Looks like I'm just gonna have to break down and try it myself... :D

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

Warning: long, self-serving post ahead. I do [b]not[/b] use this forum to promote the gear my company makes, so I'm hestitant to even contribute to this thread. If you're a Steinberg user and Halion works for you, then go for it. Or, if you're a Mac user who doesn't want to trigger Giga from a seperate PC in your studdio, Halion could be fine for you. Just for information's sake, I'll post a condensed highlight of a document that Giga Guru Dave Casey produced for our own sales reps. Just some stuff to keep in mind: [b]1. Giga is a standalone application that can used with any DAW/sequencing app.[/b] Halion can only be fully implemented within Cubase and Nuendo. If you’re running Pro Tools, Digital Performer, Cakewalk or other DAWs, you’re out of luck. The obvious benefit here is that it can function in two very distinct situations: a. You can run Giga and your chosen DAW application simultaneously on the same machine. The MIDI inputs into Giga show up as optional output destination choices within your DAW/Sequencer. Processing is split between both applications, and if you are using a multi-client sound card (able to output audio from two separate applications at once) your audio can be split as well. b. Giga can run on its own dedicated machine. Although Giga can run quite effectively on one machine with the sequencer, the program can really shine when you dedicate a machine to run it separately. Because Giga can run as a separate application, you only need to make MIDI connections between the two machines, and you are ready to go. In this scenario, Giga functions much the same way that any other sampler, keyboard, or sound module would interface with your computer running the chosen sequencer. This option is the perfect solution for Mac users, and is how most Mac users implement Giga into their studios. [b]2. GigaStudio’s latency performance is superior, especially with more intricate arrangements.[/b] Steinberg is touting some pretty impressive latency specs, but they are a little misleading if one looks closer at how they are computing this measurement. Many companies who show off low latency numbers are doing so by measuring the delay from the program to the sound card only. When evaluating a computer’s latency performance, especially when it comes to a musical instrument like a keyboard, it is important to include the "front end" delay of the system as well. a. A note is struck on keyboard b. MIDI message is sent to the computer c. Computer processes the MIDI message and sends it to the application (Giga for example) d. Giga fires the chosen sample e. Computer processes the audio f. You hear the audio out of the sound card. Using this complete calculation, Giga is able to deliver total latency specs of 3-10 miliseconds. Another thing to keep in mind is that due to the kernel level (below Windows OS) functionality of Giga, this latency spec is for all 160 voices. With Halion, because it is functioning at User Level (firmly seated in the Windows OS), as you start to stack up more voices at one time, you will increase the latency accordingly. Furthermore, Halion’s performance is directly related to the system settings within Cubase or Nuendo. [b]3. Giga’s implementation of disk streaming technology is far better than Halion’s.[/b] Here are the main areas that the two programs differ: a. RAM Buffering. Although both programs stream the samples from the hard drive, both still require a small bit of each sample to buffer into RAM. This is necessary because there is not a hard drive on the face of the earth that is fast enough to instantly start streaming multiple samples at the touch of a key. Although Halion and GigaStudio use RAM buffering, how much is used is very different between both applications. Gigastudio buffers the first 64K (roughly 1/4 of a second) of each sample, while Halion gives you a variable slider that goes between 1 and 4 seconds of each sample loaded into RAM. For comparison, we will use the Halion default setting of 3 seconds of buffering per sample on the TASCAM Gigapiano, which includes 408 individual samples: • RAM needed to open Gigapiano on a computer running Halion: 121 MB • RAM needed to open Gigapiano on a computer running Giga: 26 MB b. The Big Balancing Act. Halion has to function within the Windows hierarchy. Halion provides a work around for it’s short performance leash by providing a sliding scale to shift system draw between RAM and CPU muscle. You can load more samples by reducing the buffered portion of each sample to 2 seconds or less, but this will increase the load on the processor. On the flip side, you can pre-load more of each sample (3-4 seconds) and take the load off of the CPU…but this will reduce the amount of samples that can be loaded at once. On the other hand, Giga is able to deliver the highest polyphony count using the same amount of each sample as a buffer. This means that you will get 160 voices while still only buffering the first 64K of each sample. This is achieved through Giga’s use of the kernel level code, bypassing the bottleneck phenomena that goes along with Windows interfacing. [b]4. Halion is showing poor performance when it tries to work with Giga sound libraries.[/b] Of course, this is subjective and is going to vary from case to case. As you've probably noticed, it has been reported on numerous newsgroups, bulletin boards, and first-hand from end users who have actually done the Giga to Halion conversion, that Halion does not do this translation very well. Instruments that are created for Giga take advantage of a lot of Dimension controls (layering, cross-fading, key-switching, note-off samples) that many times do not get translated correctly. The sheer size of many of these instruments, and the way that Halion manages its sample buffering, makes it nearly impossible to utilize many of the really cool instruments created specifically for Giga. [b]5. Halion’s polyphony and performance specifications are misleading, and are only as good as the computer on which it’s running.[/b] At a glance, Halion's spec seems really impressive. But if you break down what is actually being said here, it is curiously misleading to say the least. A single computer streaming samples from the hard drive will only be able to achieve a certain amount of voices at one time, regardless of how many times it is opened on that one PC….period. GigaStudio is considered the king of the hill in the this department with its 160 voices of polyphony. This is achieved using the kernel level application driver, and is still considered a major engineering feat. There are few Halion users who have actually given any thought to the statement of "up to 256 voices"…….there are few computers that can deliver this voice count with an application that exists in the user mode of a PC that interfaces through the Windows operating system – let alone x8 uses on one system. Anyway, this is obviously our own propaganda, so take it with a grain of salt. But everyone seems pretty confused about this whole thing, so I just wanted to give you some info (lest my silence be interpreted as acquiesence in this matter, or lack of knowledge). Two last things: you should probably consider some of TASCAM's other technological strengths when you think about what might happen in subsequent versions of Giga. I can't (and don't want to) say any more about that, but getting on the Giga train early might be doing yourself a favor a little while down the line. That's it. Keep talking about this. Talk is good. - Jeff

[henryrobinett]

Thanks for the biased overview. Much appreciated in these quarters. I would like to point out that many DP users are succesfully using Halion with VST Wrapper. I can't speak from first hand knowledge but many users on Motu-Mac have reported success and like it a lot. I'm seriously considering it myself.

[Dan South]

Okay, I'm not gettin' much useful information here, so I've decided that it's time to stop talkin' and start doin'. I ordered a copy of HALion 1.1 today. I also ordered a couple of Giga CD-ROMs. I'm going to try to get them to work under Logic on a Mac using a MOTU 828 interface. This is about as far from the optimal situation as possible, because - - I'll be using something other than Giga to play Giga programs/samples. - I'll be accessing these programs and samples on an operating system for which they were not designed. - I'll be running HALion as a VST instrument under Logic, which has good but not perfect VST2 support. - The audio interface is not one of Giga's approved products. In other words, if this works, ANYTHING will. If it doesn't, I'll consider other options, including discussing the problems with Steinberg, Emagic, and MOTU as well as buying a complete Giga system. I don't see that I have anything to lose, however, because I'll still have Giga libraries that I can play from Gigastudio, and I'll have HALion and the HALion libraries that I can use on my Ti laptop. I figure that, if there's any chance that I can avoid giving more money to Bill Gates, it's worth a shot. :D Please feel free to check back for reports in a week or two.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

[quote]Originally posted by Dan South: [b]I don't see that I have anything to lose, however, because I'll still have Giga libraries that I can play from Gigastudio, and I'll have HALion and the HALion libraries that I can use on my Ti laptop.[/b][/quote] Souds like a great plan to me! Hope it works for you. Which Giga libraries are you getting? - Jeff

[Alndln]

Uhh Jeff,wev'e been using "all" Vst and Vsti thanks to the wrappers($60.00)in Sonar.

[Jeff Klopmeyer]

[quote]Originally posted by Alndln@hotmail.com: [b]Uhh Jeff,wev'e been using "all" Vst and Vsti thanks to the wrappers($60.00)in Sonar.[/b][/quote] Cool. Any effect on latency? Inquiring minds want to know. :D - Jeff