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Acts that Should Retire!!


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Jeff, I'm glad you got the humor in this. It's more like "Hey, who do you vote off the island?", not "We should machine gun these people who are useless detritis on the face of humanity."

 

Interesting you should mention Joni Mitchell. Lefsetz just did a great, and highly appreciative, piece on her. He also manages to find unknown groups that are really, really good.

 

The subject of knowing when to give up is a tough one. For example, Steve Winwood is touring again. Yet he's not a nostalgia act, but a still-vital musician with a lot to say, and a classy way of saying it. Good for him. I must admit the only way I found out what he was doing was because Lefsetz got permission to send out an MP3 to his newsletter subscribers with one of Winwood's live tunes. It was great.

 

But I also understand what's getting under Bob's skin. The endless "farewell" tours, the repackaging of the repackaged greatest hits packages, that sort of thing. And it's not just musicians. There are actors who keep mining the same vein over and over and over again. Does that make them bad or evil? No. Does it make me less interested in what they're doing? Yes. Should they keep doing it? Sure, as long as they want to and the audience digs it, that's fine. They've earned a place in the sun.

 

I also think part of the issue is disappointment. A lot of people love an act, and want the magic to continue. But sometimes it can't, and they don't want to admit the magic isn't there because they want that magic so badly.

 

I thought this thread was going to kick off a humorous, "boy-I-sure-am-getting-tired-of-[fill in the blank]" type of thing. I never expected it to take this kind of a turn, but that's interesting in itself. And reassuring, for some strange reason.

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Man, I agree entirely.

 

Being a critic of creative things... holy hell, how do you do that? It's (mostly) pretty simple to write a critique of something tangible... a car, a synthesizer, a microwave. The maker of the thing claims it does certain things. So, as a reviewer, you are expected to have a high level of expertise in the field for which you write. Take a Craig Anderton... he's going to know the entire history of a product category, the world of competing products and so on at the drop of a hat. So you can check specifications, confirm functionality, and for the subjective parts ("How good are the string sounds?"), you rely on your experience in the category to provide an educated opinion.

 

But a movie? A song? A sculpture? An oil painting?

 

I've never understood how those critics do what they do. While I'm comfortable writing a review of a guitar that may have plenty of subjective content, I'd have a hard time writing a review where the whole freakin' thing was based on my definition of good and bad. At least I can comment on how well the frets were finished, what type of inlays were used on the fretboard and other things that are tough to argue against. ;)

 

- Jeff

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I guess I need to lighten up, too.

 

This thread was seriously starting to bum me out. I mean, on the one hand, ya got everyone complaining about how all the the new bands around today SUCK; then, on the other hand, ya got all these people who want all the old bands to give it a rest.

 

According to my calculations, if we eliminated all the new artists and all the old artists, that would leave us WITH NO MUSIC AT ALL!

 

Heheh... OK, I'm lightening up now. :D

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Wine tasting -- try critiquing wine in print!! If it was left up to me, the reviews would go "Uh, it tastes pretty good and it gave me a buzz, so thumbs up." Well, maybe not quite that bad, but you get the point...
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Although I laughed simply because I can't stand most of the artists listed in Bob's article (past their peak? With the exception of Fleetwood Mac, I wasn't aware any of them ever HAD a peak! :D ), I have to agree with the consensus that as long as people want to see a band and are willing to buy tickets for it, there's no reason to call for their retirement. I may not understand WHY people would pay money to see them :D , but they do, and nobody's forcing ME to go, so whatever.

 

But Jeff, I have to disagree about the Stones. Yeah, their tickets are WAY overpriced. Yeah, their last record sucked donkey balls. And yeah, Jagger's solo albums REALLY suck donkey balls. However, I've seen the Stones on recent tours and they're always genuinely into what they're doing, work their asses off and put on a really entertaining show. There are always some surprises, both in their song selection and stage show. I doubt they'll be retiring any time soon, and more power to 'em, although I wish they'd do a tour of smaller venues and get more down'n'dirty with it as they get older.

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Kendrix brought up Tom Petty...

 

I would have to disagree. While I like his catalogue pretty much throughout, I wasn't too keen on his last two: Echo, and Last DJ. However, despite my distaste, I thought his heart was in it more than a few of his other releases.

 

Everyone's a critic. :P

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EW & F...

 

Labelle...

 

Frankiln...

 

Berry...

 

Rick james is actually sounding good now, clean and sober with Tina M...

 

Others...

 

Los Lobos...

 

Anything from Oak Ridge

Label on the reverb, inside 1973 Ampeg G-212: "Folded Line Reverberation Unit" Manufactured by beautiful girls in Milton WIS. under controlled atmosphere conditions.
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Originally posted by Jeff Da Weasel:

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

But Jeff, I have to disagree about the Stones.

Well, yeah, of course you do. Cause you're you. :D

LOL... nahhh... in all seriousness, if I really thought they sucked now, I'd be the first to say they should save their dignity and give it up. I've said as much about a few other bands I used to like back in the day, unfortunately.
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Most music is crap. But even the very best artists ususally have no more than three good albums in them. The exceptions to this rule can be counted on your fingers. So, in a way, everyone should retire (from recording at least) after doing three albums.

 

Rock artists need to continue their careers with a little more dignity. Many jazz artists conitnue to refine their skills throughout their working lives and they keep doing interesting work by working new contexts, i.e. different size bands or varying instrument lineups, collaborations with other players (including young players), albums with themes etc.

 

OTOH constantly adopting the trend of the week can seem quite pathetic, so maintaining your core competency (as they say in business) is important.

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Originally posted by Jeff Da Weasel:

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

But Jeff, I have to disagree about the Stones.

Well, yeah, of course you do. Cause you're you. :D

 

- Jeff

THANK YOU, Jeff...

 

And don't act like you didn't have that come'n, Lee!!! :P

Super 8

 

Hear my stuff here

 

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I was a Modern Languages English/French major in college, and if that doesn't put me on the present govt radar, I won't bother to lock my doors. Anyway, I also wanted to write. Few "great" critics are noted for any other genre (French word, mon ami) of writing prowess than criticism. The same applies to music, art, theatre, dance and movie critics. They evaluate stuff that they really can't do well themselves. I have never heard this guy's show and don't know if he's grousing as a devil's advocate, sincere analyst , dilettante or snob.

 

A thing is worth what someone will eBay for it.

We can't easily control what other people spend their time and money doing, but critics find it their job as consumer reporters to influence your decision.

 

Henry

He not busy being born

Is busy dyin'.

 

...Bob Dylan

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<>

 

I've been getting his newsletter for years, and if there's one thing of which I'm certain, it's that he is as passionate about music as anyone in the world, period. Everything he writes is based on the fact that loves music. He hates to see it debased, exploited, or worse yet, ignored, and he's always looking for music that creates a deep, emotional connection with the listener. Some of his best writing has been about how particlar music has affected him, or made connections in his life.

 

He's an acquired taste and he doesn't always hit the mark, but when he does, he is 100% dead on. His mailing list reads like a who's who of the music industry. He may rag on musicians sometimes in a "c'mon, wake up!" kind of way; his only real ire is reserved for those who he feels are destroying the industry's soul.

 

He's also a Mac fanatic, although he owns a PC, and although he's against stealing music, he believes that file-sharing can save the music industry IF it's done right -- convenient, easy, and preferably, done on a subscription basis rather than a track-at-a-time basis.

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Originally posted by Anderton:

<>

 

Well, his gig is to editorialize, and to provoke discussion. It was probably unfair to just post this without some background, he has a particular sense of humor but also likes to get folks to think. Some people think he's a lame idiot. Some people think he has a real clue on where the music biz is at these days. I don't agree with him all the time, but he always makes me think. And that's the point of posting something like this...

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree, Craig. The only thinking he provoked from me was that he's a self absorbed ego maniac with a rather large chip on his shoulder. Making the point that one feels there are acts that have stayed longer than, perhaps, they should is one thing. Lefsetz is just a mean little man.

 

I'm no Britney fan. Not in the least. But I don't see why you think she should throw in the towel just because she's made enough money to be comfortable the rest of her life. So what? She obviously enjoys performing, as do the members of Styx, Fleetwood Mac, etc. Perhaps Bill Gates and Donald Trump should stop working for similar reasons? You seem to have produced quite a bit of written work. Perhaps you should give it up because someone out there with a big mouth doesn't appreciate it. (I know, I know. That's a stretch. But if I've learned one thing in this world it's that even the most beloved or respected members of society have their detractors.)

 

This could have been an interesting discussion had it not begun with a loud mouth whose own mediocre talent (Judging from this piece.) is solely to attack others via his paid soap box. Perhaps if he really wanted to provoke someone to think about the issue, he should have the conversation with some of his intended targets available for comment.

 

And, BTW, I have great respect for critics who take care to be fair, who take care to argue the merits of art based on its' intended audience. (Siskel & Ebert were well known for judging action movies and teen/college goofball movies based on the genre expectations rather than their own love/hate of the genre, in general.)

It's easiest to find me on Facebook. Neil Bergman

 

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fntstcsnd

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<>

 

Because based on interviews and such, it seems she really isn't getting a very good handle on all the fame and fortune aspect of her gig. I don't think she needs to flog herself for the sake of the public.

 

She can always come back if she wants to, and she'll be in a stronger position than if she burns herself out.

 

I realize this is a bit out of character with the premise of the thread -- that an act should retire because they're spent creatively -- but she seems pretty spent emotionally and physically, and that's why I would recommend retirement.

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<< You seem to have produced quite a bit of written work. Perhaps you should give it up because someone out there with a big mouth doesn't appreciate it.>>

 

I can honestly say that I have switched careers a few times because I felt I didn't have anything more to say. For example, I used to do a lot of analog design work, but after a while, I knew that period was over.

 

For some reason, I've never felt that way about writing. But someday I'm sure I will, and will move on to something else. Or at least write a lot less.

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.............<>

 

...........Because based on interviews and such, it seems she really isn't getting a very good handle on all the fame and fortune aspect of her gig. I don't think she needs to flog herself for the sake of the public.

 

.........She can always come back if she wants to, and she'll be in a stronger position than if she burns herself out...

 

_______________________________________________

 

"Hello, yeah Brittney? Some guys say that because of interviews and such, you don't seem to have a very good handle on your fame and fortune, so, uh...gee I'm sorry to break the news but ya gotta quit now, okay? We thought it might just be a random thing, but it seems that Bob has also agreed and, well that pretty much seals it.....But hey, you can come back later if you want to...if you get a better handle on your fame and fortune of course...and then you'll be in a stronger position. But for now, ya gotta quit. Sorry. Bye".

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Interesting. So if you were a friend of Britney's, Dano, you wouldn't urge her to take a break considering she seems exhausted and burned out? You wouldn't try to tell her that maybe fame and fortune ain't all they're cracked up to be, and she should count her blessings and figure out something more satisfying to do with the rest of her life, considering she won't be limited by financial burdens?
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As long as an act still genuinely loves what they're doing, and as long as someone wants to hear them, I'm all for them continuing their careers for as long as they want. While I agree with many of the points made in the article, and never liked some of the bands (or dislike their later work), I think any sort of manditory retirement is silly. I take issue with our society's emphasis on youth and looks, and just because someone ages doesn't mean they lose their musical talent. However, if they're just in it for a buck and they're well past caring about the music / art, I think that will reflect in the performances, songwriting and recordings. That's when they should hang it up, and for a lot of the people on Bob's list, that point has come and gone. But it's not my place to tell anyone when that point has been reached.

 

I do agree with the "ClearChannel must die" posts though. :D

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<<"Hello, yeah Brittney? Some guys say that because of interviews and such, you don't seem to have a very good handle on your fame and fortune, so, uh...gee I'm sorry to break the news but ya gotta quit now, okay?". >>

 

I have opinions, and I'm not afraid to use them .

 

I cannot NOT have opinions. Lee understood exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not sitting here as Mr. God dictating what Britney Spears should do, any more than when I write an article on how to get cool sounds by mixing DAWs and hardware processors, that I expect everyone to mix their DAWs and hardware processors. My interest is to throw ideas out there and see what happens; that's how I hear different ideas and learn things.

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Second thoughts...

 

I normally don't like to reveal too much of my life in here, but I gotta say something about my Britney Spears comment.

 

I had a very close friend die because of not being able to handle fame and fortune. This is a sensitive subject with me. When I see people like Britney Spears and Courtney Love, I can't help but think that these people should get out of the public arena ASAP, for their own good. Moralistic? Misinformed? Whatever. I would love to be wrong, that would be far better than being right!

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Which got me thinking...

 

Led Zeppelin. John Bonham dies, and they're outta there. I can't help but think that at least some element of the reverence for LZ is because of their non-exploitative exit.

 

Or Abba, who was offered some obscene amount of money to reunite for a tour. They turned it down, and I respect that a lot.

 

Now, if they thought they could recreate the magic, fine. Then they should tour again. But their refusal is telling me that to them, there are some things that are more important than money. I don't know whether it's integrity, that they hate each other, that they just aren't motivated...whatever. All I know is that they knew when enough was enough.

 

And I guess it's time to say the same thing about my flurry of posts!

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NO SHIT, Craig. I've run into quite a few "famous" people myself and many of them are profoundly unhappy. Some of the ones I've known died as well. :( Others got their shit together and were glad I was there for them... a musician who didn't abuse alcohol or drugs, didn't care whether I (or they) were famous or not, and had found things to do that were more satisfying.

 

It's sad that so many people blindly chase fame and fortune having no idea what it really does to people. And the worst part is that practically no one feels any compassion for anyone who gets destroyed by it - after all, famous people aren't "supposed" to be unhappy, it's "supposed" to be the greatest thing in the world to be rich and famous. So if someone is unhappy in that state they're either roundly derided by the people around them, or everyone tries to deny it, thus reinforcing (for the famous person) the idea that they're really a loser for being unhappy. No one wants to question the basic idea that wealth and fame are the holy grail of existence. And even fewer people who are riding on the money and prestige train of a famous person, would ever talk to them about alternatives that might make them happier - even though the person may desperately need to hear such things from those who claim to be their friends.

 

Like Craig, I don't say this out of any kind of fussy moral judgement, or a wish to tell anybody else what to do. I say it because I wish there were some way to spare so many people from being hurt.

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I can't remember how many interviews i've read of people i've admired that will say something to the effect of "The huge stadiums and hotel rooms are nice, but we all miss just hitting the clubs/touring on an indie label with a few amps and a standard drum kit. We made more money then, slept more, ate more, had more time to enjoy things."

Dr. Seuss: The Original White Rapper

.

WWND?

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I haven't checked this post 'till now... interesting stuff...

 

Originally posted by Phait:

This is probably ironic but as much as I enjoy Reznor's music in Nine Inch Nails, I'm starting to wonder whats up with the stuff after all these years and he just turned 39.

Naw... rumors say that he's cooking a new album produced this time by Rick Rubin. BTW, Tool's Maynard James Keenan is like 40, and still kickin' with APC and other projects. I don't think those guys should retire. (I'm wondering whatever happened to Trent's studio at New Orleans, though).

 

Some acts that should retire... Aerosmith, Metallica, Cher, KISS... The Stones?... ohh and Britney and Jessica Simpson and her husband whatever his name is, and all the American Idols...

 

...and William Hung. :freak::D

Who Put The ' M ' In MySpace?

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Last year I worked on a show, it had one of those 60's (or 50's, or 70's) bands

 

I don't remember the name of the group. I THINK it was one of the "Motown" groups

 

It may have been

The Spinners

 

Or one of those groups (Drifters, Chilites, Stylistics, etc)

 

One of the cats was wearing an adult diaper, he could probably only walk 25 ft at a time, couldn't do the dance routines, had to sit on a stool 1/2way thru a song...severe loss of vocal control, probably also suffer from hearing loss...

 

It was very painful.

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