Counting vs feel when playing in bands

[Dr88s]

Last night a band I occasionally play with tried With A Little Help From My Friends (Joe Cockers version). I mentally count out the song in 6/8. Every time I tried to play it just by feel, I would come in horribly early or late on the louder hits relative to the drummer. If I mentally counted throughout the whole song, the timing was fine.

 

I realize that Im rarely counting when I play songs in 4/4, but I obviously needed to do it for this song,either because of the 6/8 time or just because there are a lot of hits after dead space / rests for drum fills.

 

I got to wondering how many of you regularly are mentally counting while you play - especially in a band situation - and how many of you are able to get by on feel alone.

[vonnor]

For me it's more a matter of "feel" than actual number counts. I kind of mark the beats in my head as the song is played. It helps me play the rests too, and not short-cut the note timing. Half the joy of playing in a group is everybody nailing the hit after a longish rest.

 

~ vonnor

[stoken6]

IMHO it's the ultra-slow tempo, not the triplet time, that makes it much harder. Take a triplet feel like that Cocker song, but at 85bpm. I bet you can go: |CCCCDE|FFFFED|C tacet| and come in accurately on bar 3 beat 1 - without anyone having to sing "I found my thrill...".

 

(Pedants' note: I feel both "Blueberry Hill" and Cocker's "Friends" in 12/8, but I presented it in 6/8 as it's easier to read, and to be consistent with the OP).

 

(Pedants' note 2: Anyone who complains to me that the apostrophe should be before the S will need to prove as a prerequisite that there is only one pedant).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Stokely]

Counting in certain spots...and hoping to hell everyone else is counting too

 

Almost always if I'm counting it happens in fills coming out of a bridge etc...odd parts in other words.

[BluMunk]

My old band used to do "Everybody's Got Something to Hide, Except Me and My Monkey".

 

I know when to come in with the vocals at the top by feel, but every time I tried to count it I'd come in incorrectly.

[Legatoboy]

For a rock song like Derek and the Dominos " Tell the Truth" I'm counting..so easy to get lost in a tune like that...otherwise I hate to count as a general rule ....

[Bill H.]

It's been years since I've played "A Little Help From My Friends" - but if I could go back in time and take a video, it would probably show me tapping a foot and maybe even nodding my head in 4/4 time during the breaks. That's what would have worked for me.

 

And that's basically it. Do what works for you. If it involves counting it out in 6/8, go for it.

 

A bit OT: As a DJ I'm constantly counting, because I'm bringing elements in for mixing before they're going to actually appear in the mix. It's the only way I can get it right.

[Outkaster]

I never do. It kind of ruins the experience. I learn it and practice it so it becomes ingrained. My feel is 90% of it but I do work at technique also. That is the zen of it, stuff you do on the side directly affects a lot of this.

[Ian Benhamou]

Depends on the song for me. Most of the time, feel is all that's necessary. For trickier time-signatures, sometimes counting is a must. But even then I find it better to practice a ton while counting it until the feel becomes ingrained in you and completely natural. This way you could focus on your feel instead.

[El Lobo]

Depends on the tune and the arrangement. Mostly it's feel. Sometimes the particular section requires counting so we all come in at the right place.

[ElmerJFudd]

There is no separation between counting and feel. If you count without the right feel it comes out wrong. If you feel without knowing where 1 is it comes out wrong.

[MAJUSCULE]

In terms of this tune, it might help to feel the bigger 4 beat, as well as the smaller triplet subdivisions. That way you can sway and feel the backbeat, but also break it down and count through. There are some tricky pauses but, like most everything, deliberate practice will get you there.

[psionic11]

Swung stuff feels more natural to me. Probably from playing jazz trombone in my formative teenage to college years.

 

Rock is mostly by feel too, unless there's some tricky riff or odd time signature where I have to count, until it becomes ingrained, then it's back to feel.

[ChiefDanG]

Had a tricky passage in a song recently - accents answering a vocal, gaps with an odd number of beats. Tried counting at first, but it came together when I learned the words and sang it (off mic) - flowed a whole lot better.

Also like what Biil H. says. Sometimes a ballad is helped by sub-dividing the beat (counting or foot-tapping in 8s, not 4s). But if 6/8 is messing with the flow, try to groove with the underlying 4/4 instead.

[Tom Williams]

One of the biggest bug-a-boos in my current band is that several members play by feel -- and never get the bleeping transitions at the right time.

 

I can't even communicate in terms like "This phrase lasts four measures, and the next phrase starts on the And of Four."

 

Ideally, the band would learn by counting, and then move it to muscle memory afterwards.

[cphollis]

Pretty simple in the bands I play in. If you can't get it by feel, we're going to count it out. Yes, I know you hate that.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Most people I've played with can't go by feel (or SHOULDN'T) because they mess up coming in and a lot of things. Causes messes.

 

Me personally, I count because even though I have a decent ear, those other people aren't necessarily going to do their part right. I'm sort of the person that if people lose their place, they figure out where I am and come back in. I use the ear to tell when I need to hold it together, and count on other parts. Especially important on sections with multiple time signature changes (i.e. 3/4 to 4/4 and back every other measure which amounts really to 7/8 but no one else counts it - yikes).

 

 

So feel if I know that everyone's going to stay on track, otherwise counting and feel both. Counting is essential sometimes.

[Mr. Nightime]

We do "Does Anybody Know What Time It Is" with the horn intro (me, on keys mimicking the horns.)

There is the section that has 6 bars of 5/8, followed by the bar of 6/8, then back to the 4/4.

 

I play that entirely by feel. If I try to count it out, I'll screw it up every time. The only time I've counted it is in rehearsal, trying to teach it to the drummer.

 

[Joe Muscara]

(Pedants' note 2: Anyone who complains to me that the apostrophe should be before the S will need to prove as a prerequisite that there is only one pedant).

[psionic11]

(Pedants' note 2: Anyone who complains to me that the apostrophe should be before the S will need to prove as a prerequisite that there is only one pedant).

 

I very much notice spelling and grammar, but usually bite my tongue. So there are at least 2 pedants present, making your apostrophe after the "s" correct.

 

Sometimes I wonder though how soon proper use of apostrophes will go the way of the white rhino.

[psionic11]

One of my pet peeves is when the rest of the band, especially the drummer, misses those dang "and of 4" upbeats. As bass player in charge of groove grammar and syntax, I often resort to dramatic and obvious gestures aimed at the drummer to remind him to "accent" and/or "crash"! He enjoys it, and I think the audience does too.

[CowboyNQ]

One of the biggest bug-a-boos in my current band is that several members play by feel -- and never get the bleeping transitions at the right time.

This comment nails it. Me to bandmates: "If you need to count to get the timing right, count. It's not friggin' illegal and it's good enough for Mike Mangini..."

 

Personally I need to count for trickier timings and changes in certain songs, particularly if there are no other instruments in play at that moment for me to cue off. Sometimes with enough repetition that requirement dissipates after a while, sometimes not.

[Losendoskeys]

99% of the time I don't count - it would be pretty pointless with Genesis trying to remember the time signature anyway!

I only count the number of bars if there is a section which doesn't stick.

[I-missRichardTee]

Last night a band I occasionally play with tried With A Little Help From My Friends (Joe Cockers version). I mentally count out the song in 6/8. Every time I tried to play it just by feel, I would come in horribly early or late on the louder hits relative to the drummer. If I mentally counted throughout the whole song, the timing was fine.

 

I realize that Im rarely counting when I play songs in 4/4, but I obviously needed to do it for this song,either because of the 6/8 time or just because there are a lot of hits after dead space / rests for drum fills.

 

I got to wondering how many of you regularly are mentally counting while you play - especially in a band situation - and how many of you are able to get by on feel alone.

A little bit OT

 

How about this tune ( which for about a NY Minute, I thought OP was referring to )

How many different counts, feels, idioms do you count in this amazing song??

I think the drummer is master session ace Jim Keltner, but other drummers are on session as well including Jim Gordon.

My head is spinning from the great naturalness and fluidity ( thanks to drummer mainly and perhaps Leon Russels piano too ) in how they mix idioms and merge them... This is a unique track for me.... Because I hear so many familiar grooves going on, either simultaeously or criss crossing.. If this was merely being counted it would never be this seamless and danceable. This is a masterpiece that should be studied or preserved for posterity because it captures so many different idioms.

[video:youtube]

 

With a world class drummer like this, you might get away with little or no counting... he is making it easy. But chances are slim that you or I will EVER play with such a drummer as this "monster"..

When I listen to this track, I say to myself, which count would I use, for my basic pulse? I hear more than one or even two. I wish the more analytic types would discuss this performance from the complex rhythmic side. It is a blend of big band feel, rock feels, half time feels... Just love this masterpiece of feel and multi grooves.

 

I have had the honor, privilege of playing with drummers like this, long ago... and frankly I have never been the same, because once you taste this flavor, it is hard to settle for less, and often much less. That is why I have said to myself, if I had a chance to play with an A list drummer, I might consider sacrificing my salary just to re experience the thrill of this kind of rhythmic flexibility and swing.

My first experiences were almost 50 years ago, but about 10 years ago I played with such a drummer for just two sets. And I swear I almost had a heart attack, it felt so wonderful. You guys and gals don't know until you experience it. Eric Clapton said somewhere on YT that there are ( literally, in his opinion ) FIVE great drummers in the world. I know what he means. Since many of you are part timers, with other income support... just for the fun of it.. you should consider hiring a famous drummer and have the whole band give them their salary... I know, you will say no way, it's not fair, and maybe the drummer would feel uncomfortable doing so... but I am telling you, you have no idea what a difference it makes.

 

[Six-string-man]

[quote

 

Sometimes I wonder though how soon proper use of apostrophes will go the way of the white rhino.

 

 

I think that in most places were well past that stage unfortunately.

[WesG]

I play that song. I never noticed a bunch of different counts, but I agree that it's a masterpiece.

 

I still can't get the horn stabs sounding full enough, though. I play them right over the piano section of an RD800, brought in with a damper pedal. I keep wondering if I wouldn't be better off just playing them on the organ, all 8s. I can only muster two fingers at a time in my right hand accurately...the top note and a P4th down. I wonder if I should cheat and transpose one of the horn voices up a major third? No....that would make M7 chords. Argh. Anyhow.

 

I also play the version by The Box Tops. The guitar player in that band simply could not get the intro to start on the and of one until I counted it out about a hundred times at rehearsal one day. He always wanted to start right on the one....same issue with Baby Please Don't Go. I bet we could bring that one back into the repertoire now.

 

[Outkaster]

I also feel there are varying degrees of feel. When I audition people I can tell the first minute of the song. I also can tell by the approach of the instrument, I don't even have to play it.

[WesG]

Feel is an interesting thing. There are players locally with far better chops than me, but I feel like they play the notes at the wrong time, particularly when comping regular quarter or especially 8th notes. It's so hard to describe. It's like they are way too uptight.

[PianoMan51]

Seems to me that counting and feel come from different parts of our brains. It can help to use both, but of course you have to practice using both.

 

Here are two cliches from real life:

 

1. The player with impeccable feel who cant hang with an irregular timing unless he woodsheds it at home. Cant count.

 

2. The player who can sight read Methenys First Circle, but seems sterile in a simple blues. Cant groove.

 

If counting is uncomfortable for you, the good news is, you can learn! And its a very helpful skill to guide the groove part of your brain when needed.

 

 

[re Pete]

I play in a big band. We've been rehersing with digital metronome last couple weeks to get really tight. Sure can be painful, but it works.