Do you think PC's are practical in today's world?

[LiveMusic]

I am basing this on me and three close friends. Every single one of us, our computing (PC) has actually been a disaster. I have been computing heavily for exactly 20 years. My original IBM PC (turned it into an XT) was very reliable with no problems for many years. My AT clone was too. Once past that, it started getting dicey. Since internet age, I've had one computer that did me well. A NEC laptop. Which finally totally died after three years use.

 

Since then, it has been chaos. Same for all of my three friends. I am no expert but if they didn't have me, they would be doomed. It's been a little bit of everything... hardware, OS, software, viruses, spyware. Now, viruses and spyware are wreaking havoc. Sometimes, it takes a day or day and a half to fix. There is no way they could afford to pay someone to fix this. I mean, at service charge rates, you could just throw it away and buy a new one.

 

So, I am asking you... are other people out there having lots of trouble? I cannot imagine how non-tech savvy people are dealing with this.

 

Among us four people, as I look back, it's been so effed up, I'm thinking now maybe it's not worth it. Maybe I should go to Mac. I don't know, maybe Linux. I just can't imagine how the average person is dealing with this stuff. Comments appreciated.

 

(Edited for crappy typing.)

[Thomas Wilburn]

Honestly, I run a decent firewall and a virus scan, and I've never had any real problems on any of my PCs (that I didn't cause--I can't blame that one reformat on anyone but my own dumb self). Don't install everything that asks you to press a button, and don't install anything by AOL. Stability should be a none-issue nowadays, what with OS X and Windows 2000/XP.

[Lee Flier]

I don't really know what kinds of hardware and software you and your friends are using, but there are ways to avoid most of these problems.

[Rog]

Ever since I switched to Mac I've not had any of these problems. I'm so glad I don't have to worry about spyware and viruses any more ... using my computer has become an enjoyable experience again!

 

There are things you can do to make life on a PC easier - don't use Internet Explorer or Outlook ever!

[Thomas Wilburn]

Originally posted by Rog:

Ever since I switched to Mac I've not had any of these problems. I'm so glad I don't have to worry about spyware and viruses any more ... using my computer has become an enjoyable experience again!

 

There are things you can do to make life on a PC easier - don't use Internet Explorer or Outlook ever!

Not using Outlook is not an option for me, nor is it terribly dangerous. Norton catches any virus in the preview window, and my firewall blocks any attempts at HTML spam. If I were really paranoid, I would just turn off the preview pane. Regardless, Outlook is very, very good at what it does. It is by far the best PIM I've used.

 

Likewise Internet Explorer--I know on a Mac it's a nightmare (I switched my mom over to Safari on her iBook), but I far prefer it on a PC. I had to use Mozilla for a couple months on my laptop at one point, and although it is a good browser, there are some things (OS integration, new windows, startup time) that it simply does not do as well. On the other hand, if you like tabbed browsing (I don't) or you want more sophisticated favorites/history management (I don't really care) Firefox is the way to go.

[Rog]

I don't know, Thomas.

 

Outlook is full of security holes and Explorer allows all kinds of crap to be downloaded and run without your knowledge.

 

I did a simple test ... I used Explorer for a week and ran Adaware and it turned up all kinds of nasty stuff. I ran Firefox for a week and it found nothing.

 

I think M$ have shot themselves in the foot by allowing only their apps to have total system integration and keeping out independant developers. This means that their apps (and hence Windows itself) are vunerable to all kinds of abuse that others are not.

 

Just a theory ...

[Gus Lozada]

no

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by Gus Lozada:

no

Uh, no WHAT? I'd like to know what you think but I have no idea what you are no-ing to.

[Rod S]

I dunno... I don't have most of the problems people have and I don't consider myself an expert.

 

I'm probably on my 10th computer since 1990, and had only single problems with two (Mac SE in college with busted HD - 3 months of use ; and a MOBO problem with a PC - 4 years of use).

 

The problem is people assume a PC is an appliance. It's not, and it will never be if things continue this way. You do need to know what you're doing.

 

It seems almost everything I do nowadays involves a PC - my night classes gets notes posted on the internet, I do the hw assignments and send a lot of them thru email, my mt. biking trips get planned thru email, I do all my music recording, I collaborate with musicians in other cities using MSN messenger (not the best way, but it works), participate in boards like this, use software like word, excel, powerpoint, do all my financing, just did my taxes on the PC, I correspond with people thru email in 6 different countries and probably over 50 cities.... and on and on.

 

Practical? Hell yes.... A bit of a bitch to use sometimes, well, I always figure it comes with the territory. I haven't had a virus in a long while... luck? I dunno.

[Gus Lozada]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

Originally posted by Gus Lozada:

no

Uh, no WHAT? I'd like to know what you think but I have no idea what you are no-ing to.

your original question was:

 

Do you think PC's are IMpractical in today's world?

Answer: NO.

 

A well configured PC is still a great music-making tool. If it can make good music, can do a decent job as an office machine too.

 

Actually I do have two PCs and a Mac. One PC for office stuff (this one!), one specially for Music (it has internet, only used to get patch updates and register software) and the Mac for working in the road making music and checking e-mai.

[Lee Flier]

I agree with Rog - I avoid Microsoft products for any Internet activity like the plague. I use Mozilla (Firefox for browsing and Thunderbird for e-mail) and have had no issues with viruses, worms or spyware. Mozilla's email software also has a great spam filter.

 

Keep in mind too that a lot of spyware gets installed via popup windows on web sites. Mozilla has great popup management (another good reason to use it) so that eliminates a lot of spyware. Also don't install anything from AOL, and many (ahem) file sharing and porn sites install nasty stuff. RealAudio contains spyware as well, and some of it still loads even if you uninstall it. Run Ad-Aware or other anti-spyware software to get rid of it.

 

The problem is once you've got spyware, that makes you vulnerable to lots of other software incompatibilities and crashes because the spyware just sits in the background eating up your computer's resources. Eventually it's bound to crash something.

 

Use a network hub that has a hardware firewall, too, if possible. They're cheap, and don't eat resources like software firewalls.

 

I use Mozilla, a hardware firewall, avoid the known software containing spyware, and have Windows 2000 installed, and I've never had any real problems.

[LiveMusic]

Originally posted by Lee Flier:

I use Mozilla, a hardware firewall, avoid the known software containing spyware, and have Windows 2000 installed, and I've never had any real problems.

So, part of my question was if the average person is having hell out there. I use a computer probably about 60+ hours a week. I mean, actually IN USE, not just on. Two of these three friends might be considered average, another is more a heavy user. I just can't imagine how average people deal with this crap.

 

And another thing, spam. I've reduced it alot (yeah!) but man, what a waste of time.

[phaeton]

you *do* realise this thread will eventually turn into a flame war, right?

 

btw:

 

There is no way they could afford to pay someone to fix this. I mean, at service charge rates, you could just throw it away and buy a new one.

 

and

 

I just can't imagine how the average person is dealing with this stuff. Comments appreciated.

 

My comment:

 

The average user these days will call up their ISP Support Staff and bitch and moan and complain and demand that their computer get fixed, and fixed for free. If the problem gets solved, they will often go out and download all the dumb shit again that got them in the same place they were before, then call up and bitch about it to their ISP again. Ad Infinitum.

 

This is a big piece of why I have such a bad attitude all the time.

 

Now, obviously software problems are either Microsoft Windows® related, or virus/parasite related (which at its core is also Microsoft Windows® related).

 

Hardware problems are because there is a lot of shit hardware being produced these days. It's no different than any other manufactured product- As time goes on, the price and quality go down. Corners get cut, factories get outsourced, etc, blah blah. At lot of this is caused by budgets being cut, either because execs want to keep more money, or because vendors have driven the prices down and poisoned the market. Gateway computer corp. is the first and biggest offender in this regard, and now they're starving themselves out of business.

 

Unfortunately for the Mac folks, like it or not, the Mac is becoming more and more PC-like, and as a result it's starting to inherit rock-bottom low-budget hardware made in SE Asia by starving children too. I know saying this will piss a lot of people off, but it's the unfortunate truth- open up any Mac and look inside.

 

You can buy quality PC parts, but you have to do a lot of research and hunting around. Yes that is a lot of work for the average person to have to do, and it *is* too much to ask, IMHO. And after everything is all said and done, you can still get jacked by stuff like the wrong stolen formula for capacitor dialectrics (i've bought 3 motherboards over the last 2 years as a result).

 

So who's fault is all this? It's the industry itself. Mainly the industry being influenced by a number of big businesses, and I might say the big-business-mongering politicians have fostered their ability to do that, but that's a whole nuther bucket o' snakes.

 

Bottom line Neil, is yeah, it fucking sucks, man. I understand your frustration, and i feel your pain. I'm waist-deep in this shit every day and i hate it. I used to adore computers, i used to love video games. But there is just too much pain involved, and it's pain that doesn't have to be there. I don't suffer from these problems myself (I use Linux and FreeBSD), but instead i suffer from everyone else's.

 

At the end of the day, when i've listened to 25-30 people cursing and swearing and demanding a resolution to problems they've brought upon themselves.... or after mitreing through the long, arduous process of cleaning up a machine, and the thanks you get is "well, i'm glad you've fixed my computer, but unlike you i don't get to sit in front of one all day. I've got to go do some real work now so, bye." and a thousand other variations of condenscending remarks, i stop wondering.

 

I stop wondering "how is the average user supposed to deal with this?", and start wondering how the average user is going to cope when guys like you and me get to the point where enough is enough and we refuse to help them.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Originally posted by Rog:

I don't know, Thomas.

 

Outlook is full of security holes and Explorer allows all kinds of crap to be downloaded and run without your knowledge.

 

I did a simple test ... I used Explorer for a week and ran Adaware and it turned up all kinds of nasty stuff. I ran Firefox for a week and it found nothing.

 

I think M$ have shot themselves in the foot by allowing only their apps to have total system integration and keeping out independant developers. This means that their apps (and hence Windows itself) are vunerable to all kinds of abuse that others are not.

 

Just a theory ...

The only stuff Ad-Aware ever catches on my system anymore are tracking cookies, and that was after running no spyware prevention for 7 years. I'm not thrilled about even that small amount. But they don't break my computer, and they don't seem to be eating my pets or bombarding me with spam, either, so I can deal. Other than that, I have had no security problems with Outlook or IE. This is especially the case because like any sensible person, I have the auto-update running in the corner of my screen as we speak. No computer should be left without critical updates, no matter what the OS.

 

To me, Outlook's security holes are twofold--the preview pane opens HTML when I don't want it to, and there is an auto-execute bug involving virii that was fixed in the XP version. The former is fixed with one firewall rule, and wouldn't happen at all except I'm too stubborn to stop using the preview pane to read my mail. The latter is a non-issue with Outlook XP or a decent virus scanner, which again, no computer should be without.

 

I suppose I could convert to a third-party program, but I've got better things to do with my life. I like the tech as much as anyone else, but at some point I have to actually use the computer and not just tweak it endlessly. And I like the integration with the OS: it is immensely helpful to me that I can turn any file window into a browser with just a few keystrokes. I am a huge fan of being able to treat FTP sessions as regular explorer windows, especially since I'm not allowed to install LeechFTP here at work. It also means that IE windows open instantly--there's no loading time, practically speaking.

 

On the other hand, now that I'm back with IE, I do miss the popup blocker from Mozilla almost as much as I loathed its refusal to alter window behavior, its bizarre use of the Ctrl-O shortcut (why in the name of God would I want it to default to opening local files?), and waiting for it to launch. There are good and bad sides to this whole debate.

 

But in getting involved in the whole "M$ SuXors!!!" debate (I hate that little M$ twitch people develop, too: they deserve the money, in my opinion, if only for Windows 2000, PocketPC, and Visual Studio), we're missing the point of this thread. If Livemusic is having trouble getting those computer running reliably, it's probably not directly Microsoft's fault, because mine is running fine without massive third-party intervention. I'd recommend AdAware and user education. You can't treat a computer--ANY computer--like a toaster, no matter how much Gates and Jobs want us to believe it. They are complicated systems, and people need to know how to take care of them properly.

 

That means not opening attachments (most viruses still spread this brain-dead way, no crazy Outlook hacks or Windows vulnerabilities), not installing whatever a web-page tells you to install, and nothing (as Lee said) EVER by AOL. These are rules that we can all agree on, no matter what the OS or the browser.

[Rog]

That's another angle Phaeton. Once word gets out that "you know a thing or two about computers" you're in trouble. Every time a family member or friend has a Windows problem I get a call.

 

These days I just say, "oh, that's terrible ... you'd better get someone in to fix it"

 

My bro is a mechanic, he doesn't get people calling him up to fix their car on a Saturday morning ... well, not for free anyhow.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Originally posted by phaeton:

Bottom line Neil, is yeah, it fucking sucks, man. I understand your frustration, and i feel your pain. I'm waist-deep in this shit every day and i hate it. I used to adore computers, i used to love video games. But there is just too much pain involved, and it's pain that doesn't have to be there. I don't suffer from these problems myself (I use Linux and FreeBSD), but instead i suffer from everyone else's.

 

At the end of the day, when i've listened to 25-30 people cursing and swearing and demanding a resolution to problems they've brought upon themselves.... or after mitreing through the long, arduous process of cleaning up a machine, and the thanks you get is "well, i'm glad you've fixed my computer, but unlike you i don't get to sit in front of one all day. I've got to go do some real work now so, bye." and a thousand other variations of condenscending remarks, i stop wondering.

 

I stop wondering "how is the average user supposed to deal with this?", and start wondering how the average user is going to cope when guys like you and me get to the point where enough is enough and we refuse to help them.

Preach on, man, preach. I'm there. Just because my system runs the way it's supposed to, I'm tired of teaching people the same simple rules for maintenance over and over again. My girlfriend wants to know why I refuse to take tech support jobs instead of looking for writing/editing positions, and this is why: all the fun is gone from using a computer any more.

[LiveMusic]

I bought my mom a used computer. Crap. Took it back. Got another. Hard drive failed. I realize, used systems. But if I get her another and crap starts going wrong and I am not here, she is dead. She can't afford somebody to fix it. Heck, just teaching her to use a mouse was (still is) a challenge. I'll have to really think through it to get her something simple and stable cuz if something goes wrong, it will be trouble.

[Rog]

Originally posted by LiveMusic:

I bought my mom a used computer. Crap. Took it back. Got another. Hard drive failed. I realize, used systems. But if I get her another and crap starts going wrong and I am not here, she is dead. She can't afford somebody to fix it. Heck, just teaching her to use a mouse was (still is) a challenge. I'll have to really think through it to get her something simple and stable cuz if something goes wrong, it will be trouble.

I had a similar dilemma when a friend using Win 2k got a virus.

 

I advised to her buy an eMac and and copy of OS X for dummies and she's never been happier.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Depending on what she's going to use it for, you might try something like the Dana, which is a PalmOS laptop, or a WindowsCE machine. They have a touch screen, they are durable, they are easy to fix, and they won't give her as many confusing options. They are also not typical virus targets, and they tend to turn on and off instantly. These are attractive features for many people, and are as close as most of us will get to "information appliances."

[Thomas Wilburn]

While we're at it, I don't recommend a Mac OR a Windows machine for the proverbial grandmother. Mine could manage to send either one to the dumps in a hurry. Recognize that those people need to do only about three things: browse the net, send and recieve e-mail, and do basic word-processing. Then find the dumbest, simplest, cheapest machine that will do just those.

 

I really like the Windows CE laptops. They are rom-based, so you're not going to destroy the OS any time soon, and they can operate in a familiar fashion to a "real" computer while still being virus/spyware immune. Seriously, consider one. They're cheap on eBay.

[LiveMusic]

She sells Avon. Avon has a website online that she would place her orders on. I don't know if they have accounting software or not but if they don't (or a 3rd party vendor), I would be surprised. But just placing her orders is the main thing she wants to do. I've seen the site. A web database order-entry system.

 

So...

 

place her orders (twice monthly)

browse the net

email

maybe accounting software (not mandatory)

 

Would it work to do this?

[Thomas Wilburn]

The accounting software would have to be written for Windows CE. If the firm has a PocketPC version (for PDAs) it will run on a WinCE laptop.

 

Other than that, everything should work fine. They come with IE 4.something or another, there are other browsers available, they have Word/Excel built into ROM (a fairly nice version), an Outlook e-mail/contacts analog, and there's lots of shareware. The processor will probably be either an ARM or a MIPS, so you're not going to get any viruses, but it won't run regular Windows stuff without recompilation (the OS hooks and API are almost exactly the same, but the binaries are different). They do multitasking, as if that will matter to your Grandma (although it does mean she can leave e-mail running in the background), and they will open almost every PC file known to man (which in her case, means .jpg, .html, .mp3, .doc, .xls). In other words, they are binary compatible for non-executable files, but not for programs.

 

The other option that occurs to me is an internet appliance made by 3Com for a while. I don't remember the name of it. Audrey, maybe. I think the WinCE machines are going to be more "computer-like" and therefore easier for her to learn and you to troubleshoot, if it comes to that.

[Thomas Wilburn]

The short answer, then, is yes. Sorry for being so verbose.

 

cewindows.net has a lot of good information, I think.

[Anderton]

I have two PCs, desktop Mac, and PowerBook. All are humming along just fine.

 

The "office" PC runs Windows 98SE and AOL. I use it for the net and as most viruses are targeting XP/2K, and AOL filters stuff out pretty well, I'm doing okay with that. When I'm really paranoid, I do internet from the Mac.

 

The XP music computer has never seen the internet and never will!

 

The Dual G5, although DOA, worked fine once I fixed it. OS X is to 9.2 as XP is to 98SE.

 

BUT I also know what I'm doing (sorta) and I understand that alot of this must be mystifying to the average user.

[phaeton]

BUT I also know what I'm doing (sorta) and I understand that alot of this must be mystifying to the average user.

 

Yes, a big part of it is having a clue. I know that sounds mean to say and all, but it is unfortuately true.

 

I guess i should also say I don't look down on people that don't understand or know, because ignorance isn't particularly a crime in itself, and the Windows OS for example, is designed to make you feel inferior and make you feel that you are dependent on someone, and/or that you need someone like Microsoft to look out for you.

 

It's the ones that don't want to learn or understand, and want to shift responsibility for their actions from themselves to someone else. These are the people that have 15 viruses on their machine, and they know it, but don't care.

 

Meanwhile their machine has been infecting 700 computers an hour for the last 5 months.

[Salyphus]

Originally posted by Rog:

Ever since I switched to Mac I've not had any of these problems. I'm so glad I don't have to worry about spyware and viruses any more ... using my computer has become an enjoyable experience again!

 

There are things you can do to make life on a PC easier - don't use Internet Explorer or Outlook ever!

This is very true.

[Thomas Wilburn]

Originally posted by Saul Asner:

Originally posted by Rog:

Ever since I switched to Mac I've not had any of these problems. I'm so glad I don't have to worry about spyware and viruses any more ... using my computer has become an enjoyable experience again!

 

There are things you can do to make life on a PC easier - don't use Internet Explorer or Outlook ever!

This is very true.

Except when it's not. But that's a whole other thread.

[KenElevenShadows]

I had heard that a large majority of viruses attack Outlook. I use Eudora Pro (the free version), which probably isn't the greatest prize, but works perfectly fine. I don't see that it's any better or worse than Outlook, anyway. But if the large majority of viruses do indeed attack Outlook, that would be one step towards lessening the problems that one has.

 

A good firewall (I use ZoneAlarm Pro) and anti-virus also helps.

[Robman2]

For music, I wouldn't use an internet connection anyway. Seperate PC altogether.

 

For work, the firewall and pro virus stoff catck a ton of stuff.

 

I'm adverse to Mac because of the cult and cost.

 

FWIW.

 

R

[Henchman]

The only time my PC screws up i when I screw it up by installing a new beta/experimental driver or similar.

 

I use Mac's at work, and they drive me crazy. I gotta give it to Jobs. Convincing people to spend piles of cash on something that in no way is any better than a PC.