Here's one for the women

[coolhouse]

As an interested observer of the ascent and decline of feminism,I am curious about how women in the biz view Madonna. She has certainly been around long enough and has touted herself as a role-model for younger women and girls,and I have noticed a certain amount of caution on the part of older stars(Joni Mitchell comes to mind) when called upon to comment on her. Anyway,has her long standing popularity and influence been good for women in general? Women in the music industry? Whaddya think ladies? (Guys can reply too but I'm really more interested in the feminine POV.) later, Mike

[Lee Flier]

Well... from this female's point of view, I think Madonna has been a terrible role model for women, and I've said so since the beginning of her career. For one thing, she still used sex rather than talent to get where she is. The only difference between her and somebody like Britney is that she controlled her own career and the sexuality that she portrays is one where SHE is in control, rather than a man. Although it's fine that she's in control of her own career, the sexual turnabout that she did is still really twisted IMO. I happen to love men and I happen to think women can succeeed at whatever we want to do without being ball busters. I don't need to feel like anybody controls anybody, and I think the message Madonna sends in that sense is a really bad one. Also, as I've said before on these forums, I get sick of people saying they may not like Madonna's music or image but they respect her for her "business savvy". I happen to feel that what you're selling counts as much as how well you sell it. IMO if you're a great salesperson but what you're peddling is poison, you don't deserve any respect. So never let it be said that I hesitate to offer an opinion about Madonna. :D --Lee

[timrocker]

Hi Mike, Lee, everybody; Has Madonna touted herself as a role model for young women or did the media at the time build that up? I ask because I really don't know. It might make a difference. It often seemed to me at that time that any woman who rose to prominence or whose name became a public item was immediately touted (though not with their own participation) as a feminist or a role model or both. It seems like a sneaky assumption to me that a woman who is successful is also either a feminist or a role model. Does any one else see that? Rhetorical question; What if what Madonna really is, is a success?

[Chip McDonald]

Joni Mitchell probably finds it curious to comment on someone who is only borderline a musician. IN FACT, it's sort of an insult to her to ask, it's like saying "you're a good musician, but of course look at your contemporaries, this is the category you're in". Madonna works hard, has great breasts, and behaves like a soddenly arrogant prick of a man. The one thing that should be said is that it's not that she's "struck a blow for feminism", but that *she didn't let being a woman slow her down*. Lee is such an exception. One of my best guitar students right now - basically my best as far as intuitive sense, smarts in general, is a girl that is totally ruined by the way she views herself in society. She doesn't want to try anything, stick it out, because she knows there's predjudice against her. She has a timerity that on the surface appears to be "girlish", but it's not a physical manifestation of being female, but an aquired habit. CONVERSELY though, I don't think she should turn into an asshole like Madonna. It's amazing that people like Joni Mitchell and Kate Bush happened, when considering social expectations of what women are "supposed" to do with their lives.

[Lee Flier]

Chip: I agree, if I were Joni Mitchell I'd find it insulting to be asked about Madonna. I've sometimes been asked who my role models/influences were, by people who assumed they were other "women rockers": "Oh, are you into Joan Jett? Or Heart?" Uhhh... no. :D But you have to keep a sense of humor about stuff like that. I also think that ANYbody who wants to be a musician has to be immune to caring what society "expects" of them, or they will never be able to withstand living the life of a musician. Tim: I think there have been a number of women who've just gone about their jobs and been successful without waving the flag of feminism or setting themselves up as role models. To some extent, ANY celebrity male or female, is going to be seen as a role model by some. But I think some people, Madonna among them, definitely invite it more by deliberately playing a role. Madonna's M.O. is to play to the media, give them an "angle" to capitalize on. So I don't think the labels the media puts on her are an accident whether she publicly says so or not. --Lee

[natty fred]

well personally Madonna is not one of my role models, I'm definately in the Joni Mitchell camp... Has Madonna been good for women in the music industry? errr, well only if you count the masses of talentless popette girly chick singers now poluting the airwaves with senseless dribble so they can ponce around in skimpy outfits in the vids as a good thing, Lately I have been pondering the lack of women instrumentalists in London, (maybe they do exist and I just don't know where they hang out) but it seems a bit odd to me. In Syndey, approx 20% of the musicians I played with were women (& I was freelancing 4 to 5 gigs a week), & the "Bass Player" shop in Sydney actually ran a TV ad solely aimed at attracting women to the shop. Here in London I have only heard one (yup just one) very good bebop pianist. Why is that? Does anyone think it's because women have been pigeon holed to doing only the "popette/chick singer" thing due to the careers of performers such as Madonna? I'm not sure but maybe there's something in that... Here in London the two biggest role models for yoof seem to be "Posh & Becks" Posh Spice! :eek: arrghhhh!!!! & David Beckham (he looks good in tight shorts :D ).... There only seems to be three women on this forum; Lee, Valky & me, are there more? In America, are there more women musos & studio nuts? or is it still rare to find one? just curious... peace, natty [img]http://www.theunholytrinity.org/cracks_smileys/contrib/fk/butterfly.gif[/img]

[coolhouse]

[quote]Originally posted by natty fred: [b] There only seems to be three women on this forum; Lee, Valky & me, are there more? [/b][/quote] Natty, I looked around for a thread called "do women post here?". I read it on one of the forums but couldn't find it again. BTW Nashville is swimming in female talent though I haven't seen as much on the tech side as in performing and business. I really appreciate everyone's response. I have always been mystified by the Madonna Mystique primarily because I've always been immune to it. I couldn't begin to tell you why so many men find her captivating and I never understood why so few women found her troubling. I guess for a while she married her sexual-depravity-as-personal-statement-schtick to feminist ideals and seemed to buy a "get out of being slagged by other female artists free" card. I think there's little doubt that she quickly formed a cynical"nudge and a wink"alliance with the media. She provided them with regular juicy copy and they kept her in the spot light. She seemed to have taken a page or two out of Mick Jagger's playbook and regurgitated them verbatim. The only difference is that she seems to believe her own press more than he does. These days I see more and more young women and girls who have stuffed themselves into the Madonna mold. It's a chilling prospect for a man with a nine year old daughter. later, Mike

[Uh Clem]

[quote]Originally posted by natty fred: [b]well personally Madonna is not one of my role models, I'm definately in the Joni Mitchell camp... Has Madonna been good for women in the music industry? errr, well only if you count the masses of talentless popette girly chick singers now poluting the airwaves with senseless dribble so they can ponce around in skimpy outfits in the vids as a good thing, [/b][/quote] Well, if we're stuck with senseless drivel - which is the undone euphamism known as the media, then sure - I'll take mine with a shot of girly chics in skimpy outfits to soften the blow. May as well make the best of it, right ;) .

[Tedster]

Joni Mitchell is the coolest. Good for you, oh Natty one... :D

[Lee Flier]

natty, there really aren't a WHOLE lot of women musicians or women in audio in the US either. As to why, I get asked this a lot, and I have no idea because whatever the reasons are have never applied to me. I wanted to be a musician and an engineer so I just took all the steps to do that, which I don't see as being any different for a woman than for a man. I also don't understand why musical "role models" for women have got to be women. My guitar influences were all male and I didn't see that as anything worthy of comment - that just happened to be what I liked. If you want to get into music, find people whose talent you respect and learn from them, and it doesn't matter what gender, race or whatever they are. People really limit what they can do by pigeonholing themselves and others. Glad to see at least a couple of other people who don't get the whole Madonna thing, anyway! :D I'm not much of a Joni Mitchell fan either but at least she is a legitimate talent and should not be compared with the Madonnas of the world! --Lee

[Intheether]

Coolhouse: I ususlly post on keybord or digital recording forum, but yes, I am female too. There are lots of female musicians, albiet, not = to the male populous but I think we're getting there. This forum isn't a true representation of the ratios (I hope anyway). Regardless, I am not a 'fan' of Madonna as such, but I do respect her as a force in the music industry. So what if she's a sex pot? She has a gorgeous body, takes care of herself and knows she can flaunt it. Erotica was her best album, but the whole sex book thing happened at the same time i.e. overexposure (literally). Remember she does have her own label and has signed acts like Alanis Morrisette. To me, it's about balance. Let them have Madonna - so long as I can have Tori Amos. I don't blame Madonna for the Britney's or Christina's. They are a creation of men who are at the helm of record companies, payola, and empty-vee. She didn't create it and is definitly in a class above them in terms of controlling her own image. Watch this all swing back to the 90's when acts like Sarah McLaughlin and Jewel - songwriters, not pop tarts, we're big. It's all about cycles. To Madonna's credit, she's successfully rode out every one. ~nel

[coolhouse]

[quote]Originally posted by nelz: [b] It's all about cycles. To Madonna's credit, she's successfully rode out every one. ~nel[/b][/quote] No doubt. One of the reasons I started this thread was that she has been around for so long. I wondered what people thought of her from the perspective of a long and successful career that has passed it's most controversial stage. BTW the post I was telling Natty about yesterday(do women post here too?)is on the MPER forum. later, Mike

[D. Gauss]

nothing wrong with madonna. she never wanted to be a musician, she wanted to be famous. big difference. the thing i respect about madonna is that she doesn't deny anything and that usually deflates whatever controversy surround her. a certain mr. clinton could have learned a thing or two from miss m. ....... -d. gauss

[coolhouse]

[quote]Originally posted by d gauss: [b]. a certain mr. clinton could have learned a thing or two from miss m. ....... -d. gauss[/b][/quote] I believe Mr. C has expressed an interest in getting together with Miss M. for the purpose of "learning a thing or two". :D later, Mike

[rold]

[quote]Originally posted by coolhouse: [b] I believe Mr. C has expressed an interest in getting together with Miss M. for the purpose of "learning a thing or two". :D later, Mike[/b][/quote] LMAO - I wouldn't put it past him :D

[Laurie Z.]

Another woman steps up to the plate! Nelz - I'm with you. Good for Madonna for creating an image (actually, many, changing throughout the years) which works for her and has allowed her a huge amount of control in her career. The only Madonna album I've ever felt driven to purchase was the one with William Orbit (I'm a big Orbit fan), and I think it's a good piece of work. But overall, I prefer "Live to Tell" of all her songs. I thought she was a flash in the pan when she was in her "Lucky Star" period, like many, but if you watch her career, she's been brilliant in keeping her music (and look) contemporary and viable. She's earned the right to call her own shots. Anyone who pulled off as many consistently strong hit songs as she has in this fickle industry deserves a certain amount of respect. She's pushed the taste envelope many times, but...that's how you get publicity in this media-driven society of ours. I'd prefer a society which bases its musical role models completely on musically creative criteria, but that's not how we are, unfortunately. We'll see how long the current crop of "young thang singers" lasts... lz (ummm - female instrumentalist - yes, we're here!) [url=http://www.lauriez.com]www.lauriez.com[/url]

[strat0124]

Well I'd like to have Lucinda Williams cut on this thought.....shes battled the heavies a long time, her and Bonnie....and a host of others. Madonna is an excellent business woman fo sho.

[Lee Flier]

[quote]Originally posted by strat0124: [b]Well I'd like to have Lucinda Williams cut on this thought.....shes battled the heavies a long time, her and Bonnie....and a host of others. Madonna is an excellent business woman fo sho.[/b][/quote] Well, once again... I don't really respect anybody simply for being an "excellent businessman/woman", and I don't understand our society's inclination to respect people for that, if what they're selling is shallow crap or worse. What's up with that? I became aquainted with Lucinda Williams early on in her career when she was playing in tiny bars in Los Angeles. I thought she had a pretty big chip on her shoulder and was not particularly impressed, to be honest. Bonnie Raitt is another story, I ran into her quite a lot around L.A. too. Definitely a woman after my own heart - just goes about doing what she does and has a great time and no BS whatsoever. I don't recall ever discussing Madonna with her, so I won't presume to speak for her on that, but if I were to take a bet on it I'd bet Bonnie doesn't think much of her. My favorite quote ever about Madonna comes from one of my guitar heroes, Richard Thompson: "I find her deeply not interesting." Therefore it pains me greatly when so many people make such a big deal about her as if she's some sort of cultural icon. I guess that's a sad statement about our culture and maybe explains why I don't relate to it very well... but whatever, I'm quite positive that I'm having a better time in life than Madonna is. :D And by the way it is really refreshing to see some totally cool women on this board like Natty and Valky who obviously stay focused on the really important stuff like honesty and love and good humor. That rocks! --Lee

[henryrobinett]

I've never gotten anything from Madonna and I certainly don't think she's a good image for women or men to take on. But it s the world we know and live in. For a few years I played and worked closely with Jessica Williams, the most phenominal female jazz pianist alive and one of the most phenomenal pianists anywhere, regardless of gender. I was disappointed at seeing first hand at how mercilessly male oriented and unforgiving the music world, and perhaps especially, the jazz world is. You just have to continue knowing who you are and being the best you can be, beyond the bounds the world expects of you. Again regardless of gender, race, or creed.