Going down the rabbit hole of searching for new baby grand

[cedar]

After realizing a dream of setting up a new music room - mentioned in another thread - my current baby grand developed a problem. I won't bore everyone with those details. But I've never been in love with this piano and the issue has prompted me to consider purchasing another baby grand.

 

Have any of you searched recently? It is quite an experience. On one hand, many say it's a "buyer's market" because people apparently aren't investing money for grand pianos as much as before. But the range of prices and available models is very daunting, particularly for someone not a technician.

 

Just limiting my options to Steinways - simply as a starting point - I am already overwhelmed by the choices. It so happened that Steinway was running a deal this past week, allowing you to trade in your current piano (regardless of make) and get "full market value" towards purchased of a new Steinway. But new Steinways ain't cheap. They do offer "heirloom" pianos (i.e., rebuilt or partially rebuilt), but those prices are still only about 15% off the prices for new pianos. And they now have a line of pianos under the name "Boston," which are manufactured with a Japanese company (Steinway design), and not hand-crafted.

 

Yesterday, I visited a couple of local shops where they purportedly update and renovate Steinways on the premises. The prices are much more reasonable, but still a huge range. And it's hit and miss whether they use actual Steinway parts. (The Steinway company says they never sell their soundboards and likes to claim that any piano renovated with non-Steinway parts isn't as good; the renovators naturally disagree.) But at least with these places, you usually get warranties.

 

Best way of getting a deal, of course, is to find private seller. Some sellers just want to get rid of their pianos and I think it is possible to get some amazing bargains. But this feels risky too. I think it is essential to get an independent technician to check out any privately-sold piano.

 

Aside from money, I also find it very difficult to evaluate pianos in environments different from my home. For example, I went to a showroom with about 30 pianos in a large warehouse-type room. I am sure any of those pianos would sound pretty different in my home.

 

Further, when trying out several pianos at one location, I question whether my opinion of one piano is affected by what I just heard from another piano. For example, one piano might be comparatively bright to another piano - making me wonder whether it is too bright. But if I just hear it alone, I might not consider it bright at all. Perhaps even worse is comparing pianos that I played at different locations and different days.

 

I'm not in any rush to make a decision, so maybe I simply need to wait until I find something that I unequivocally love.

 

Still, if anyone has any words of wisdom, please share.

 

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Words of wisdom? I don't have much. I know you are looking at higher-end stuff, so this shouldn't be a factor, but AVOID Pearl River! My old church got conned into buying one of their baby grands and from the day we got it one of the keys had something wrong with it where it would produce a loud metallic rattle noise when it struck the string. It didn't sound that great either. They bought it because, A. There was no pianist involved with choosing it and the Music Director (who only sang and played trombone) and one singer chose it, and B. It was a 50% off sale at a music store so they "only" payed $6500 for it instead of $13,000 for it. Absolute piece of garbage. Felt cheap too. I've tried a few other Pearl River pianos, and while I didn't notice anything wrong with the keys, they really still felt and sounded cheap.

 

 

 

That's all I have to say.

[cphollis]

If you go the piano dealer route?

 

Stick with top brands (see pianobuyer.com). Their opinions have corresponded with my real-world experience, including pricing. I'm not saying all brands from China are bad, but one has to be a lot more judicious. I had one experience with a Brodmann grand that sounded great when new but much less so only two years later. So be careful out there.

 

If you go used, wait for that gotta-have-it piano and deal hard.

 

Where I live, lots of folks buy baby grands for living room decorations (expensive ones at that). You know they never get played as they have a tablecloth over the top and it's festooned with decorations. Bring a piano tech to look at your final choice. Although if you stick with top brands and pianos that are still young, very unlikely you'll have a problem.

 

The other thing to consider in baby grands is a hybrid. I still love my AvantGrand N3 after several years. And it never, ever goes out of tune.

 

Finally, don't discount the appeal of a full-sized upright, e.g. Yamaha or similar. Although they don't have the same visual appeal, the sound is right up there and they take a lot less space.

 

As far as differences in sound between your room and where you're evaluating them, I've learned to spitball that. Most of my rooms are acoustically treated with very little reverb. Many piano stores are open spaces with a lot of reverb. So I just mentally adjust to the differences. Besides, you can do a lot with room acoustics if you have to.

 

Best of luck.

[Mjazz]

If you're not set on Steinway, you might check out the Yamaha CX series (maybe C3X for a small studio, 6'1"), which first came out in 2012. I never liked the older Yamaha C series, but to my ear the CX are very different and have a great sound, also nice action. They come in a range of sizes.

 

One good thing about Yamahas (from a shopper's perspective) is that there seems to be much more consistency from one to the next than there is with other brands, especially Steinways, which seem to vary hugely. I love what I think of as the "Steinway sound," but from what I've been able to tell, only a relatively small percentage of Steinways actually have it!

 

You're right ... the problem of trying to compare different pianos at different places (even different locations within the same dealer's showroom) on different days having heard different pianos before and after is fairly overwhelming!

[nickd]

Could you pick your preferred make/model, then hire one for a few weeks or months to really live with it, before you commit to buy?

 

In the UK, there's various dealers do 'hire then buy' schemes, where they'll deduct part of the hire fee from the final price if you go ahead and buy.

[stoken6]

Bring a piano tech to look at your final choice.

This. And pay them (or a gift) for their time.

 

Finally, don't discount the appeal of a full-sized upright, e.g. Yamaha or similar.

Personally I don't get the satisfaction from an upright action. From my teens I learned on a baby grand - and it's the same piano in my front room today that my kids are learning on.

 

Good luck in your quest.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[cedar]

I grew up on a nice Yamaha upright, but once you get used to a baby grand, it's hard to go back.

 

I also am hoping that the room where the piano will live can one day be used to make pretty good recordings.

[cphollis]

I grew up on a nice Yamaha upright, but once you get used to a baby grand, it's hard to go back.

 

I also am hoping that the room where the piano will live can one day be used to make pretty good recordings.

 

I think it depends on the specific instruments in question. A top-brand full-sized upright will give you a better experience than a smaller baby grand from an inferior brand.

[Lady Gaia]

I completely agree with the advice to stick with an established brand that has a reputation for quality and service, but Id caution against getting too fixated on any one brand. Play a variety of pianos in your price range and see what you connect with in terms of action and tone. You might be surprised if you keep an open mind. Historically excellent brands can get complacent and charge more for less where an aggressive investment by a competitor can take years to be reflected in a reputation shift. Frankly, price is more strongly associated with legacy reputation than quality.

[cphollis]

Play a variety of pianos in your price range and see what you connect with in terms of action and tone.

 

The key part of this phrase is "in your price range".

 

Otherwise, you'll end up buying a Ferrari when you started looking for Hondas. Well, that's what happened to me.

 

Seriously, though, Lady Gaia has a point. There are some less-well-known brands that really shine when you sit down to play. Hence my suggestion to take some time with pianobuyer.com.

[re Pete]

Heard a concert pianist perform yesterday at a church that just bought a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin BB 7 footer. Pianist said Ravel and Rachmaninoff preferred these over Steinway.

 

It sounded amazing. Bass was to die for, and middle, upper range notes clear as a bell.

[Jazz+]

Does it have to be a baby grand? I personally would never by such a little piano, too much is compromised in string length. No bass or tenor . I would buy a used 6-8 foot long Baldwin, or Mason and Hamlin (careful they had several periods of cheezy years) , Yamaha or maybe Steinway but you pay extra for the name. A baby grand is like the bass string length of a Yamaha full upright or maybe even less.

[tnelson]

What worked for me 25 years ago was to contact one of the best piano techs in the area (then CT, MA, NY), who participated in meetings of the local piano tech guild. The techs meet and network a lot, so they hear about many pianos in the area. Chris and I discussed my general interests and price range and stayed in touch. The piano tech guilds sometimes have pianos in various stages of restoration as teaching projects, they share info about clients thinking about selling, estate sales with pianos, pianos being prepared for sale, etc. Pianos that may not appear in stores, online listings, etc. They generally already know a lot about the condition of the pianos in question. It took about 6 months before she found me the right candidate. I ended up with a lot more piano than I'd imagined, and at a great price. Of course, Chris became my tech who then expertly serviced the piano for the next 20 years until I moved to the West Coast....

[cedar]

Yes. Has to be baby grand, between 5 1/2 and 6 feet. I happen to like that size and its best for the room

[cedar]

Im on the train now but will do a trip report later from my just-completed visit at the Steinway showroom in Manhattan. Sure to thrill and amuse all.

[CowboyNQ]

I completely agree with the advice to stick with an established brand that has a reputation for quality and service, but Id caution against getting too fixated on any one brand.

I'd support this philosophy generally. Whether you're buying pianos or cricket bats, it doesn't hurt to remain brand agnostic to ensure you get the best item to suit your needs. Particularly if you're shelling out reasonable $$$.

 

I bought a baby grand a few years ago and bounced around between three brands for a while - although to be fair you're playing the big leagues where I was mucking around in the amateurs. Steinway was sadly well beyond my means!

 

Good luck on what I'm sure will ultimately be a very rewarding purchase.

[Dave Ferris]

I'm with J+ in that I've rarely played any piano under 6' that I would've cared to own.

 

Just know at Steinway Hall you're going to find extreme high prices on new Model Ms - 5' 6" and Model Os -just under 5' 11".

 

Without price range, it's hard to recommend which route to go.

 

Rebuilds maybe. But only a handful of people doing restoration I would recommend. And as mentioned, for anything of higher quality i.e. good, that you'd want to keep for a lifetime - the prices would reflect the quality of work.

 

Pianomart or local Craigslists maybe. Again budget enters into it before recommending a specific brand and model. Also if your space has limitations and you simply can't fit something at least 6'.

 

Also the thought that a "larger piano" will too overwhelming for the space is a fallacy, generally. A good tech can voice a piano down. My D is in a 20' X 20' space. Not exactly concert hall dimensions. Yet it's been meticulously voiced and regulated by some of LA's finest techs over the years so it's sounds optimum for the space.

[Bobadohshe]

Does it have to be a baby grand? I personally would never by such a little piano, too much is compromised in string length. No bass or tenor . I would buy a used 6-8 foot long Baldwin, or Mason and Hamlin (careful they had several periods of cheezy years) , Yamaha or maybe Steinway but you pay extra for the name. A baby grand is like the bass string length of a Yamaha full upright or maybe even less.

 

I agree. I'd really shoot for 6' minimum.

[doctorpong]

I agree with checking with a Piano tech before buying. The tech that I use for my upright knows quite a bit about the different models for the different brands, and he thinks that there are quite a bit of difference between different models (e.g. sizes) of baby grands for the same brand. Mainly not as much as how they sound (he does have his preferences, but of course this is subjective), but how well different sizes hold their tune for each brand (and how hard they are to tune).

[Dave Ferris]

Since you are a Jazz aficionado, I would recommend the latest Yamaha C3X model you can find. Which might prove a challenge to find used since the CX models have only been out since 2012 I believe.

 

Big difference between the older C series and newer CX models, as Mike mentioned earlier. New would be great !

 

I feel that particular model offers the best value, consistency from piano to piano, tonal quality and can fit in most smaller spaces without being too obtrusive.

 

The Yamaha C3/C3X and C7/C7X are probably two of the most popular pianos in the world.

[cedar]

I'm with J+ in that I've rarely played any piano under 6' that I would've cared to own.

 

Well, I guess it depends on what you're used to playing. I've been playing a Story and Clark 5 1/2 foot piano for the past decade at my home. Every piano I've tried this past weekend has been a big improvement.

 

6' is probably the limit for my room. There are various Steinways that come in at 5' 11". Still, I have played a number of Steinways at 5' 7" and they sound pretty damn good to me.

[cedar]

Moments ago, I spoke with a guy who lives about 90 minutes from me. Selling his Steinway Model O from 1902. The photos make the piano look stunning. He explained that his wife - a piano teacher - bought the piano about 25 years ago, after it had been refurbished. (He had no idea what actual work was performed to it.) But wife died 2 years ago, and he's asking $15K.

 

If the outside of the piano is any indication, his wife likely maintained it well. But it hasn't been tuned in the past 2 years. So now I have to decide whether to make the drive to hear this untuned piano. And then I'd have to find a local technician willing to come with me.

 

Just one part of the search.

[cedar]

So here is my brief trip report about going to the Steinway showroom:

r

I went because they happened to have just had a promotion, whereby they offered to give full value to one's piano if credited to buying a new Steinway. I knew the new Steinways would still be out of my price range, but I was curious about their "economy" brand, "Boston." (Boston is mass manufactured with someone in China, I believe, but designed by Steinway.) A new Boston (5' 11") runs for $31K or so (though I theoretically could have gotten $10K for my current piano credited).

 

So I walked into the showroom for the first time and felt like I was in a different world. Everything was immaculate and stunning. Met the very smooth sales person. Played the Boston for about 30 minutes. It was nice, but lacked the warmth of a true Steinway. Then she let me play one of the brand-new Steinways (I think model "M"). Because I was enjoying myself, I played that for about 20 minutes, even though I knew it was far out of my price range.

 

Sales person also told me that the refurbished Steinways they sell are only about 15% off the prices of brand-new pianos. But added that they occasionally sell used pianos (for example, from the 1990s), which are more reasonably priced (yet still in the $40-50K range).

 

At that point, I snuck out of the place as the salesperson looked at me with feigned sympathy.

 

Then tonight, I visited a local guy looking to sell a Steinway from the 1920s for $13K. It sounded good, but needed work.

 

So the search goes on....

 

This is quite an education.

[Bobadohshe]

6' is probably the limit for my room. There are various Steinways that come in at 5' 11". Still, I have played a number of Steinways at 5' 7" and they sound pretty damn good to me.

 

Would take a 6'10" Yamaha or Kawai over a 5'11" Steinway probably 8/10 times (comparable age).

[Tom Williams]

I don't know how they have held up, but in the 1980s I would have loved to get either of the two Young Chang pianos that were at the Richmond Piano Rebuilders. In my opinion the 5 and 6 foot YCs had timbres comparable to 7 and 9 foot Major Brand grands. I've seen YC grands on Craigslist for $1000-$4000 dollars.

[jerrythek]

I'm surprised to see the advice about getting an upright instead of a baby grand. The action is so different... no vertical piano will ever give the touch experience (and ability to control dynamics) that a horizontal piano will. It's simply the mechanics of the action design. I long for a horizontal piano to practice on... I can neither fit one in my space nor afford it.

 

 

[Tom Fiala]

I have a refurbished Steinway, Model S, circa 1935ish by serial number, that was restored by a non-Steinway brand piano shop. They did a beautiful job. When I was looking, I played a number of instruments, including Bosendorfers, other Steinways, and so forth. But this particular one kept calling my name, because of how it sounded.

 

It's now about 17 years later...and I still love it.

 

Go and play the contenders, and wait for the all-important emotional connection to the instrument. Good luck!

[Reezekeys]

I'm with Dave F here. Newer Yamahas are just great for jazz. My nephew has a C5 - not the "X" series, just a 2009 C5 - and I know I'd be happy for the rest of my life with that piano. From what you say the C5 might be too big for you (it's 6' 7"), but I think I might find a way to make it work!

 

This is the piano Dan Z really shows it off nicely here too, especially towards the end. This and the C7X I played at the Honolulu Blue Note are two of the best pianos I've ever experienced and that includes a meticulously rebuilt and well maintained Hamburg D. They each have their strengths, with some characteristics that might be a little "better" than the others. In the end, when it's in your space and you've been playing it a while, I truly believe you'll forget what those differences are. I definitely understand what you're going through now though!

 

[video:youtube]

[Dave Ferris]

Rob, thanks for posting that video. Yeah Dan is a FINE player and a very nice recording too ! He really makes that C5 sing !

 

Years ago he drove down from his home all the way up in Marin County to buy my CP5. What a surprise to learn he was your nephew. Talk about a small world !

 

Yes, I've met more then one Jazz player here that prefers Yamaha over even Steinway. As I've posted before, I've been fortunate to own two before I acquired my D. The C7 and S6 were both fantastic.

 

Both the C7X and CF6 are out of this world, dream pianos to own. Definitely gives a B a run for it's money. Although the C7X is 6" longer of course.

 

I feel a big part of the attraction is the consistency from piano to piano, model to model. And the clarity on the new CX/CF pianos are incredible. Although I hear the new Steinways, within the last two years, starting to be more consistent , at least among the Bs I've played.

 

Again, if size were an issue, the C3X, or even better, CF4, would be my choice for pianos around the 6' area in length. Especially for Jazz.

[cedar]

I must have played 40 pianos over the last 4 days, in various locations. If nothing else, I've managed to do a lot of playing!

 

Now at the stage of narrowing down the field to a few places.

 

Thinking seriously of one Mason Hamlin AA (6'2").