Action, schmaction.

[drawback]

Its the last frontier for hair-splitting, folks.

 

If you can hit, you can time up any fastball.

[MAJUSCULE]

[video:youtube]

[Nathanael_I]

Yes, I think Nord is going there with the new Piano4. While no one can confirm, they seem to be doing something with the triple sensor to improve finger/sound connection. This is a good direction. What could Kawai or Yamaha do in this dimension if they really applied themselves? I bet it would be shockingly good. Then the final frontier would shift to amplification/sound reproduction, but that is solvable if the wallet is willing/capable.

 

I have an optical MIDI rail in my Kawai RX-7 grand piano. I cannot get the velocity curve to match in MIDI what the piano is doing acoustically. 8 bits of MIDI just isn't enough. It's not that I can play 128 velocity levels consistently - obviously no one can do that repeatedly. It is that the dynamic range of the piano from soft to loud is smooth and seamless but in MIDI, you have to use a curve to compress that expression, and then the sound doesn't match. I bet it is not an accident that the $50K Bosendorfer system for their grands uses 1024 levels. It just takes more resolution to accommodate what a high-end grand is capable of.

 

What is interesting is that outside of Ravenscraft, we haven't had someone go after making ONE piano sound as good as possible. They customized their own controller to work with their sample, and reports from side by side playing are that it is very, very excellent and close.

 

I would think that Kawai or Yamaha could do this even better given their resources. Put a 40GB top sample, with modeling inside a Kawai MP11 type action with long key pivots, etc and then use a sensitive optical sensor with high resolution ala VAX77 or something. With the right feedback from Yamaha and Kawai concert artists, the feel could be dialed in and baked into firmware. I bet the resulting instrument could be better than all but the finest acoustic pianos.

 

The instrument cannot weight 30lbs, but it could be exquisite in the feel/touch department. Many here would not gig with it. But as a piano replacement? Even at 100lbs it would be a marvel, and truly worthwhile.

 

Someone will do this over the next 5 years. It won't be any good for playing organ or synth. And the less compromised it is, the better it will be for piano playing.

 

Maybe no one in a function/covers band will care - piano is just one timbre. But for some, piano is not "a" timbre, it is "the" timbre, and those people will care deeply.

 

 

[mate stubb]

Casio PX-5S driving Pianoteq is a combo being used successfully. The Casio can output high resolution velocity, and the software can respond in a completely nuanced (modelled) fashion.

[Nathanael_I]

Pianoteq with my VAX77 is a very expressive combination. The VAX is not close to a piano action, however. But it is high-res MIDI and makes a surprisingly connected experience. Shame that none of the really high end actions will output high-res MIDI.

[cphollis]

Yes, I think Nord is going there with the new Piano4. While no one can confirm, they seem to be doing something with the triple sensor to improve finger/sound connection. This is a good direction. What could Kawai or Yamaha do in this dimension if they really applied themselves? I bet it would be shockingly good. Then the final frontier would shift to amplification/sound reproduction, but that is solvable if the wallet is willing/capable.

 

I have an optical MIDI rail in my Kawai RX-7 grand piano. I cannot get the velocity curve to match in MIDI what the piano is doing acoustically. 8 bits of MIDI just isn't enough. It's not that I can play 128 velocity levels consistently - obviously no one can do that repeatedly. It is that the dynamic range of the piano from soft to loud is smooth and seamless but in MIDI, you have to use a curve to compress that expression, and then the sound doesn't match. I bet it is not an accident that the $50K Bosendorfer system for their grands uses 1024 levels. It just takes more resolution to accommodate what a high-end grand is capable of.

 

What is interesting is that outside of Ravenscraft, we haven't had someone go after making ONE piano sound as good as possible. They customized their own controller to work with their sample, and reports from side by side playing are that it is very, very excellent and close.

 

I would think that Kawai or Yamaha could do this even better given their resources. Put a 40GB top sample, with modeling inside a Kawai MP11 type action with long key pivots, etc and then use a sensitive optical sensor with high resolution ala VAX77 or something. With the right feedback from Yamaha and Kawai concert artists, the feel could be dialed in and baked into firmware. I bet the resulting instrument could be better than all but the finest acoustic pianos.

 

The instrument cannot weight 30lbs, but it could be exquisite in the feel/touch department. Many here would not gig with it. But as a piano replacement? Even at 100lbs it would be a marvel, and truly worthwhile.

 

Someone will do this over the next 5 years. It won't be any good for playing organ or synth. And the less compromised it is, the better it will be for piano playing.

 

Maybe no one in a function/covers band will care - piano is just one timbre. But for some, piano is not "a" timbre, it is "the" timbre, and those people will care deeply.

 

 

To me, you're basically describing my Yamaha AvantGrand N3. Not sure of the sample size (don't care, really), but it definitely has that grand piano finger/key connection thing going on. Play it for a bit, and you quickly forget that it's electronic. I've had mine for several years, and it keeps making me smile.

 

And it's never, ever going to a gig.

[Nathanael_I]

There is the Kawai Novus NV10 in the same category - has a real grand piano action in it. And at 250+ lbs, it also wouldn't be gig bound.

 

At present, I've settled for a clear distinction between home studio and stage. I have a mint RX-7 in my studio. I can play it any hour of the day or night. This is not "settling" in any normal usage of the word. Pure delight. Then there are stage keyboards. Right now, I mostly play a Kronos, but will likely get an MP11 or CP4 in the spring. Going to wait for NAMM and see if anyone makes anything new or updates anything.

[Dave Ferris]

I'm super spoiled- I had the annual regulation on the D about 4 months ago and it's just magnificent right now. In fact when Terry Trotter, my former teacher and mentor came by for a rehearsal for a show at Vitello's, he said this one of the nicest playing and sounding pianos I've played. And he's played a few pianos in his long career.

 

Other nice ones as of late - the Fazioli 212 at Pierre's Fine Pianos was dreamy. As were a few of the Yamahas at Keyboard Concepts. I played both the CX 6&7 and the handmade CF6 (extra wow on that one !). I think the action might be the same in both - but don't quote me.

 

And I'm pretty certain Steinway is improving the set up and prep on their showroom Bs, at least here in LA and probably Steinway Hall in NYC too. I played three down at the Bev Hills store. Anyone of them would have been incredible to own.

 

Just returned from another morning at the church with the Grand Stage -- yuck. I have nowhere near the nuanced control on the Korg as I do with the CP4. But happy not to have to schlep anything.

 

The Nord Piano 3 was an improvement but didn't knock me out. When I have the time to get over to Burbank, I'd like to see if the NP4 is more refined and easier to play.

[David Emm]

Between the madness of really poor actions and the growth of mini-modules like the Roland Boutiques, I'm resigned to (and acceptably happy with) a couple of lesser controllers. I lean in and drool a bit over the Prophet X (not literally, ugh), but you have to go to that price point to get a decent keybed, generally. M-Audio's Hammer 88 is one nice exception. I'm physically past being able to seriously engage a real piano, so a part of me would almost like to buy an old D-50 as a controller. That thing had a gratifying touch-to-response factor I've barely felt outside of $3k-$5k instruments since. Hey, get Grampa a drink. He's tuning up about decades-old effing synthesizers again!

 

[Al Quinn]

+1 on the D-50 action: I find it surprisingly easy to express myself with.

[Nathanael_I]

I lean in and drool a bit over the Prophet X (not literally, ugh), but you have to go to that price point to get a decent keybed, generally. M-Audio's Hammer 88 is one nice exception. I'm physically past being able to seriously engage a real piano, so a part of me would almost like to buy an old D-50 as a controller. That thing had a gratifying touch-to-response factor I've barely felt outside of $3k-$5k instruments since.

 

This is my experience. My Solaris has a great synth action in it. The wheels are fantastic. Heavy, with just enough resistance that they can be manipulated in extremely fine manner. With the right programming, sounds can be very expressive. I believe this is Fatar's top synth action, and I have another keyboard that has this action as well. Both are excellent instruments and north of your $$ figure. The new Minimoog Model D has a good keyboard as well, but again, it's over that figure.

 

If I was to get a ModX, it would not be to play the keyboard - I'd probably just use it as a "module" that came with a free keyboard. I've just never been happy with any of the "bargain" actions.

 

At the end of the day, isn't an instrument about how it feels to play? I've never understood wanting an action-compromised instrument to save price. Make a module, but don't make a crappy keyboard! But then again, I may be in the rocking chair next to you yelling at the kid with an Octatrack to get off my lawn. That kid doesn't even care if there's a keyboard. He or she could go on for hours though about drum pad sensitivity on groove boxes....

[David Emm]

>> If I was to get a ModX, it would not be to play the keyboard - I'd probably just use it as a "module" that came with a free keyboard. I've just never been happy with any of the "bargain" actions.

 

Likewise, although the MoDX invites you to interact with it upfront, SuperKnob and all. Using it as a slave would be a bit clunky logistically, so a desktop module version sounds appealing. The rise of shite keybeds had a lot to do with me ending up in-the-box. I'd love to have the JP-80 keyboard as a controller, but I can render what I like well enough with my motley substitutes.

[synthizen2]

Most of the time, "budget" boards have mediocre-to-poor actions. But sometimes they don't. Sometimes you get surprised.

 

i.e., my MOX8 (probably also applicable to MOXF8)-- when I went to buy it, I thought "okay, it'll have shoddy action but I'll deal with it in order to get Motif sounds in a lightweight board". Turned out the action was not a compromise at all. Really good GH weighted action. They compromised on the shell, but not the keybed, on that one.

[Quai34]

+1 on the D-50 action: I find it surprisingly easy to express myself with.

My second keyboard on top of my stage 2 88 and which is the second one I use the most to control all my other modules is my trusty D50 from 1986....And it takes AT from the Stage 2....

[jimkost2002]

I agree with regards to Nord Piano 4.

 

Also, as a controller the response in astounding.... Im using it for Keyscape AP, EP and Clavs ...also Omnisphere with pitch and Mod weels of a Subsequent 37.... the NP transmits and recieves PB and Mod messages, hurrah!

 

As to the OP, yeah, I can hit curve balls and sliders with anything you put in front of me, but its helpful to not have your left brain concentrating on workarounds with less than optimal actions, when you want to shut it off completely and give yourself over to right brain and subconscious during performance!