Digital piano/Controller Longevity?

[jimkost2002]

Ive (hopefully) exercised due diligence before posting my question here to you, my forum bretheren.

 

Here goes:

 

Ive just purchased Keyscape and already own Omnisphere and am looking for a combo DP and MIDI controller that has RESPONSIVE action-quick key travel and return-good enough onboard sounds (AP, EP, Clav) and DURABILITY AND LONGEVITY (8-10 years

 

What I am specifically looking for in the responses here is REAL WORLD LONG TERM EXPERIENCES from road warriors whove used boards from the following manufacturers first:

 

In consideration

(in order of preference)

Yamaha CP 4, 33

Nord Piano 3/4

Nord ElectroHP 6/5

Dexibell

 

ON THE FENCE

Roland RD 2000 ONLY

Kurz

 

ABSOLUTELY OUT

Korg

Kawai

 

Ill also take responses from ANY others whove found WORKABLE LONG TERM SOLUTIONS with boards from ANY manufatcurer.

 

 

REMEMBER Im looking for DURABILITY AND LONGEVITY

Something thatll stand up to national and international tours.

 

My main concern in using a dummy controller is the computer or software glitching live so I want comparable backup sounds. APs are important but only in a personal pratice situation as my main focus is EP and Clav.

Quick and responsive action is a MUST, no RH3 sluggishness or Kawai clicking!

THANKS in advance, brothers!

Love,

JK

[The Real MC]

Ive (hopefully) exercised due diligence before posting my question here to you, my forum bretheren.

 

Being a MIDIBoard owner since 1989, the two DPs I owned - Yamaha and Korg - were not worthy of MIDI controller duties. Either they were too limited or their MIDI implementation was user hostile. Not worth the frustration.

 

Can't speak for the Nords, which are better suited for stage performance.

 

REMEMBER Im looking for DURABILITY AND LONGEVITY

Something thatll stand up to national and international tours.

 

That would pretty much rule out ANY DP.

 

When I gave up on DPs, I looked for a MIDI controller as good as the MIDIBoard... no one makes any decent standalone MIDI keyboards anymore. I wound buying a 2nd MIDIBoard for the road.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks RealMC !

What can I expect to pay for one these days?

(Agreed no-one makes decent MIDI controllers anymore!)

 

So, in your estimation theres no DP that is up to snuff? Not even CP 4?

 

I would really like a good hardware sound engine in case I have computer problems......

you know its always good to have backup:)

[Legatoboy]

I'd go with the Roland 2000, I think they are built better than the CP4 and it's non-piano sounds are very very good as are APs but I'm not a big big fan of their AP's to be honest.

.Their actions rival or equal the CP4 ...The RD2000 controller functions and Roland's Master Controller functions in general were always well laid out in their interfaces. I owned an A80 and still own an A50.

 

Mind you I do not own a RD2000 but have played them a number of times and believe they would hold up well and supply good sound backup. I believe it would hold up better than the CP4, Nords or Dexibell over time for touring nationally and internationally...just my opinion. Though, still hate their Mod./Bend Paddles!

[EscapeRocks]

Like the above: If I didn't have to carry the RD2000 myself, I'd go with that.

 

As it is, I have been gigging my PX5S regularly for four years, with zero problems. It is my 88 note controller for Mainstage.

[dongna]

I think it's pretty hard to question the reliability and durability of just about any Yamaha keyboard-- certainly any of their high-end keyboards, which the CP4 and CP33 certainly are. This is based on general comments I've read here since 2005, and elsewhere prior to that.

 

I can also vouch for Yamaha personally having owned an S90ES since the mid-2000's that has performed flawlessly, and a KX88 before that that performed flawlessly from the mid-80's or so up to when I acquired the S90ES.

 

Can't speak (personally) to the Nords, but based on the number of them you see on stage you have to figure they have to have a decent level of reliability.

 

Dexibell I feel is far too new on the scene to have any sort of a track record for reliability.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks Legatoboy!

 

My biggest concern with the RD is size and weight, hence my on the fence designation... Any RD 2000;owners care to chime in ?

 

If it were action alone Id prolly go CP4....but I am concerned about the plastic top long term.....

 

Dave Ferris or any other CP4 owners?

[The Real MC]

Thanks RealMC !

What can I expect to pay for one these days?

(Agreed no-one makes decent MIDI controllers anymore!)

 

Average price is $500. There's one on ebay now for almost 1500, but that is too much and it has older firmware.

 

So, in your estimation theres no DP that is up to snuff? Not even CP 4?

 

Remember that the target market of DPs is home pianos or worship or education, where there is little need for MIDI controller duties. I am not confident that a DP can serve as a MIDI controller, especially when I see no controls on the panel for changing MIDI parameters. You'll understand better when you play a real MIDI controller.

 

I would really like a good hardware sound engine in case I have computer problems......

you know its always good to have backup:)

 

Go the module route. For touring, a backup module is much smaller cartage than a backup DP.

[jimkost2002]

Thanks again, MC!

 

(sigh) nobody makes hardware modules anymore.... except Dexibell and the Roland Integra.......(sigh)

[dongna]

I think it's pretty hard to question the reliability and durability of just about any Yamaha keyboard-- certainly any of their high-end keyboards, which the CP4 and CP33 certainly are.

I have to amend my prior comments-- I forgot that the CP4 is made from a plastic shell to keep the weight down. For long-term road use that is worth considering.

[jimkost2002]

my concern as well, dongna.....

 

and, frankly, reliability and dependability is why the Nords are on the list.....

[lvercaut]

Thanks again, MC!

 

(sigh) nobody makes hardware modules anymore.... except Dexibell and the Roland Integra.......(sigh)

 

and GSI !

[Dave Ferris]

If it were action alone Id prolly go CP4....but I am concerned about the plastic top long term.....

 

Dave Ferris or any other CP4 owners?

 

Jim, I might not be the best person to speak of long term durability on the CP4. I bought mine in May of 2014 and the first couple of years I was using it fairly frequently. But in the last year and a half, I've been playing acoustic piano almost exclusively on I'd say 75% of the gigs. The other 10% a keyboard is provided. So that leaves about 15% of the time I've been using the CP4. I actually play it more in the office everyday then I do on gigs.

 

All that said, I haven't a second's problem with the action, keys sticking, etc. But you might want people like Tim Wat or Bobby Cressey to chime in as I'm certain they are using it much more in the field then me. I would get a substantial case for it for sure.

 

You didn't ask and it doesn't have anything to do with build quality or durability, so it might be OT but I thought I'd pass it along fwiw.

 

I recently had a live experience, in the studio, with the RD2000. I've played it multiple times - at NAMM, in the store A/Bing with the CP4 - but never used it in the heat of battle.

 

So back at the end of July I played at a bass player's studio who holds regular jazz sessions and records them for posterity. He had been using the CP300 for many years but bought the RD2000 recently.

 

Before we started, I was hearing it back through phones in stereo and thought it sounded pretty good while just playing it alone. But when the group started playing (3 horns and rhythm section), I found it just not sitting very forward in the mix of bass & drums. It seemed invisible during comping when one horn was soloing or multiple horns were playing the heads. Needless to say I never had that experience with the CP4. Or my two previous Nord pianos - NP88 & NP2.

 

Basically when I was soloing the piano just had this sort of bland, vanilla and not-alive sounding character. Also due to my perceived lack of presence on the 2000, I was instinctively playing harder and digging in more unnecessarily then I do on my Yamaha. That in turn causes tension and affects the overall musical flow on my solos.

 

I'm fairly certain after that particular session, in a fairly controlled studio environment, even if someone was schlepping it for me, I would pass on the Roland.

[Legatoboy]

I pretty much based my suggestion for the RD2000 on build quality and sturdiness in traveling well, not necessarily weight or the AP sound....what was mentioned by Dave concerning it's AP sound I have found to be true, and also in regards to many other Roland AP patches on various instruments of theirs. For me the Yamaha AP sound in general holds up better in varied ambiences and band settings. Solo the RD is probably fine! And I have heard it well at other times also from other folks using one in band setting so it is a bit confusing in terms of that to me...just think the thinness of AP samples, though detailed cause the issue in varied ambiences...the body of the actual tone seems thin and transparent when mixed with other ensemble instruments as Dave mentioned. Why, not 100% sure?..the sample tone itself, the filters, the Amp Env they use, the D/A converters..I EQed it 7 ways to Sunday. What then? I could never really nail it down ...think it's the converters or something in that region of the instrument(s) . . . Always found their EP sounds 'Meh' but usable!

 

But there is much to like in the RD2000 as a controller... and it's other sounds including Roland Clavs which I personally like and their synth/orchestral sounds can be very very good.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Thanks again, MC!

 

(sigh) nobody makes hardware modules anymore.... except Dexibell and the Roland Integra.......(sigh)

 

and GSI !

 

And Yamaha still has their Motif Rack XS.

[Mighty Motif Max]

Weight limit? My Motif XF8 has held up great. 2x a week gigging for much of its life. The Montage would be the closest thing. Made out of metal and wood. Therefore 63.5 pounds.

 

 

At or around the 47 pounds of the RD-2000 would be the Kurzweil Forte @48lbs, which many forumites like, the Kurzweil Artis 88 @46 lbs (not sure on the construction material of this one), the Kurzweil Forte SE @40lbs. Also there is the CP40 from Yamaha, but I think it has the same build or a lesser one than the CP4.

[MoodyBluesKeys]

Kurzweil PC3 series - very usable as a MIDI controller, you can set most knobs and sliders to any MIDI parameter needed. Good internal sounds. Well built (but not lightweight).

Possibly the later series like the Forte - I don't have one to compare. I do have five PC series - PC2, PC2X, PC3, PC3X, and PC361. one of the five has had problem with internal analog sound output, could be fixed, but I run the SPDIF output into a DAC and still use it. Mechanicals have stood up well on all of them.

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

Kurzweil PC3 series - very usable as a MIDI controller, you can set most knobs and sliders to any MIDI parameter needed. Good internal sounds. Well built (but not lightweight).

Possibly the later series like the Forte - I don't have one to compare. I do have five PC series - PC2, PC2X, PC3, PC3X, and PC361. one of the five has had problem with internal analog sound output, could be fixed, but I run the SPDIF output into a DAC and still use it. Mechanicals have stood up well on all of them.

 

The PC3K8 weighs in at around 54lbs. Since he is on the fence about the RD2000 based on its weight, at 48lbs, I'm not sure if he would like the PC3 or not. We'll see, I guess.

[Zalman Stern]

... What then? I could never really nail it down ...think it's the converters or something in that region of the instrument(s) . . .

 

What are you proposing the converters might be doing?

 

The only simple explanation I can come up with for significant thinness issues, outside of the sampling/modeling/synthesis quality just not being there, is an instrument is doing something interesting with the stereo image and it is being summed to mono in the mix. The solution would be to pull the mono output off the board or to pan the two outputs appropriately.

 

I have experience with the RD2000. I like the action and find the user interface better than a lot of the competition. Sounds are certainly competitive and the two most recent expansion packs are pretty cool. E.g. if you're into organ sounds that expansion covers a lot more ground than the base set. Build quality seems good, but I'm not really one to judge re: what is needed for heavy touring.

 

GSi makes the DMC 122, which has a lot of MIDI configurability. Of course it is a dual manual waterfall board, not an 88-key piano style one.

 

My impression was rack modules are pretty easy to come by on the used market even if they're not current products. These should be pretty reliable. I expect this market has been diminished by VSTs and Mainstage on an iPad, etc.

 

Someone mentioned Dexibell being new to the scene, but I'm pretty sure they've been manufacturing for other brands for a fair while. Its more the name that is new than the product.

 

The current approach to technology doesn't really engineer for bomb proof longevity in anything consumer oriented. Ask yourself whether you can buy something good enough for enough less that replacing it in four or five years rather than eight or ten doesn't totally piss you off.

 

-Z-

 

 

 

[Mighty Motif Max]

I forgot to mention the Viscount Physis K4EX, at 43lbs. A very serious controller. The EX version has the sound board installed. Never seen one so I can't comment, but I know that at least two forum members have one of the models. @hardware I believe is one of them.

[jimkost2002]

If it were action alone Id prolly go CP4....but I am concerned about the plastic top long term.....

 

Dave Ferris or any other CP4 owners?

 

Jim, I might not be the best person to speak of long term durability on the CP4. I bought mine in May of 2014 and the first couple of years I was using it fairly frequently. But in the last year and a half, I've been playing acoustic piano almost exclusively on I'd say 75% of the gigs. The other 10% a keyboard is provided. So that leaves about 15% of the time I've been using the CP4. I actually play it more in the office everyday then I do on gigs.

 

All that said, I haven't a second's problem with the action, keys sticking, etc. But you might want people like Tim Wat or Bobby Cressey to chime in as I'm certain they are using it much more in the field then me. I would get a substantial case for it for sure.

 

You didn't ask and it doesn't have anything to do with build quality or durability, so it might be OT but I thought I'd pass it along fwiw.

 

I recently had a live experience, in the studio, with the RD2000. I've played it multiple times - at NAMM, in the store A/Bing with the CP4 - but never used it in the heat of battle.

 

So back at the end of July I played at a bass player's studio who holds regular jazz sessions and records them for posterity. He had been using the CP300 for many years but bought the RD2000 recently.

 

Before we started, I was hearing it back through phones in stereo and thought it sounded pretty good while just playing it alone. But when the group started playing (3 horns and rhythm section), I found it just not sitting very forward in the mix of bass & drums. It seemed invisible during comping when one horn was soloing or multiple horns were playing the heads. Needless to say I never had that experience with the CP4. Or my two previous Nord pianos - NP88 & NP2.

 

Basically when I was soloing the piano just had this sort of bland, vanilla and not-alive sounding character. Also due to my perceived lack of presence on the 2000, I was instinctively playing harder and digging in more unnecessarily then I do on my Yamaha. That in turn causes tension and affects the overall musical flow on my solos.

 

I'm fairly certain after that particular session, in a fairly controlled studio environment, even if someone was schlepping it for me, I would pass on the Roland.

 

Thanks as always for your sage advice, Dave! Youve confirmed my suspicions on the RD in a playing environment as well.... since our musical situations in one area are similar I know that when my environment crosses over from 1965 and before to 1970 and beyond, the RD would get swallowed into the melee!

 

Ill ask Tim and Bobby too, thanks!

[jimkost2002]

Calling Tim Wat and Bobby Cressey!

Hows the CP4 holding up in the real world for you guys?

 

At this stage its either CP4 (feel) or Nord (durability).....

[jimkost2002]

 

 

The current approach to technology doesn't really engineer for bomb proof longevity in anything consumer oriented. Ask yourself whether you can buy something good enough for enough less that replacing it in four or five years rather than eight or ten doesn't totally piss you off.

 

-Z-

 

 

 

Yeah, Zalman, I think the 5 year timeline is more realistic......

Nothings built like my Vintage Vibe or Moog......

[timwat]

Calling Tim Wat and Bobby Cressey!

Hows the CP4 holding up in the real world for you guys?

 

At this stage its either CP4 (feel) or Nord (durability).....

 

Hey Jim,

 

So I've had no reliability issues with the CP4 to date (knock on wood). The only glitch I've had is with the five-band graphic eq, where the middle band fader seems to have broken. My tech says he can drop in a replacement very quickly but I've been lazy about bringing it in and it really hasn't detracted from me gigging it regularly.

 

Yes, it's plastic rather than Nord metal, so I've always been careful about handling it, how I put it on the cart, etc. But I never use it on gigs where soft case isn't appropriate and I always handle it myself so the plastic seems to be holding up fine so far.

 

And of course, the action is still quite superior to any board I own, so all that frustration I'm currently going through with other boards - not an issue with the CP4 and i can just focus on my playing.

 

So that's my report so far...

 

Tim

[jimkost2002]

Thank you Tim, thats great to hear!

I forgot to ask.... how long have you had yours and did you buy it new?

Also, have you ever used it as a MIDI controller for software?

[Al Quinn]

I havent had any problems with my CP4. Its a pleasure to play. Ive used it as a midi controller. My needs are limited: just select sounds in Mainstage with the CP4s patch buttons and, for that, it works fine. If you want knobs, buttons, and faders to tweak your sounds the CP4 falls far short. Ive owned many Yamaha keyboards through the years and reliability has been flawless. My perception / experience is that theyre a well run company that understands quality very well.

 

My gripes are that I found that UI for Midi setup counter-intuitive but with some persistence (and frustration) I got through it. Also, when using the Performance Direct Select mode to select Mainstage patches via the CP4s patch buttons the Performace Select Button flashes. Perhaps this wouldnt bother others but I find it distracting and put a piece of black tape over the button.

 

Jim, youre welcome to check out my CP4 and Mainstage setup if that helps. I understand youre in Brooklyn so Im roughly 60 miles east in Center Moriches.

[jimkost2002]

I havent had any problems with my CP4. Its a pleasure to play. Ive used it as a midi controller. My needs are limited: just select sounds in Mainstage with the CP4s patch buttons and, for that, it works fine. If you want knobs, buttons, and faders to tweak your sounds the CP4 falls far short. Ive owned many Yamaha keyboards through the years and reliability has been flawless. My perception / experience is that theyre a well run company that understands quality very well.

 

My gripes are that I found that UI for Midi setup counter-intuitive but with some persistence (and frustration) I got through it. Also, when using the Performance Direct Select mode to select Mainstage patches via the CP4s patch buttons the Performace Select Button flashes. Perhaps this wouldnt bother others but I find it distracting and put a piece of black tape over the button.

 

Jim, youre welcome to check out my CP4 and Mainstage setup if that helps. I understand youre in Brooklyn so Im roughly 60 miles east in Center Moriches.

 

Thanks for the kind offer, Al....

Im not worried about on board controls as Keyscape has a template for CP4 and I have a a Nektar Panorama for the synths.....

[jimkost2002]

Hi friends, thanks for all responses!

 

I first tried a Dexibell Vivo S3 as I was curious and couldnt get a good read when I auditioned the S7 at Sam Ash on 34th.

 

Loved the build, very impressed with the features couldnt connect with the onboard AP sound no matter how much I edited it or the keyboard touch.

Surprisingly, the Rhodes and Wurli were EXCELLENT, especially after editing the bell of the Rhodes.

 

Dexibell is really going to be a MAJOR player in the DP world, they will only get better!

Kudos to them and I for one will pay close attention to them in the coming years!

 

I tried a CP4 and of course LOVED LOVED LOVED the action and onboard sounds, but I found the build quality of the case to be, surprisingly, a bit too flimsy for what it will need to withstand in its life with me, so.....

 

Itll be Nord Piano 4 for me.... I had a chance to try one at a friends studio and the newer action (debuted on NP3) was ALMOST identical to the CP4.

 

And, what REALLY turned my head was the new Royal Grand 3D in XL size. Warm, rich and also bright and cutting when needed. I was able to get mutiple dynamic levels and found it hugely inspiring. It didnt hurt that I was audtioning the Nord thru a pair of high end Focal nearfield monitors, either!

 

Thanks again, yall!

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Ferris]

I tried a CP4 and of course LOVED LOVED LOVED the action and onboard sounds, but I found the build quality of the case to be, surprisingly, a bit too flimsy for what it will need to withstand in its life with me, so.....

 

Itll be Nord Piano 4 for me.... I had a chance to try one at a friends studio and the newer action (debuted on NP3) was ALMOST identical to the CP4.

 

And, what REALLY turned my head was the new Royal Grand 3D in XL size. Warm, rich and also bright and cutting when needed. I was able to get mutiple dynamic levels and found it hugely inspiring. It didnt hurt that I was audtioning the Nord thru a pair of high end Focal nearfield monitors, either!

 

 

Interesting Jim. I played the NP3 a couple of times and while I felt a definite improvement over the NP2 - which I owned for a few years - I didn't feel it approached the CP4's action, regarding ease and fluidity of my playing. Has the NP4 been tweaked so it plays better then the NP3 ?

 

Color me very curious about the Royal Grand, especially for Jazz. But I don't need yet another DP for the little I'm using them on gigs these days.

 

Jim, I hope you get a good one that doesn't exhibit the clacking key noises that plagued the NP3. Perhaps by now they've rectified that issue. In any case good luck with it.

[jimkost2002]

I tried a CP4 and of course LOVED LOVED LOVED the action and onboard sounds, but I found the build quality of the case to be, surprisingly, a bit too flimsy for what it will need to withstand in its life with me, so.....

 

Itll be Nord Piano 4 for me.... I had a chance to try one at a friends studio and the newer action (debuted on NP3) was ALMOST identical to the CP4.

 

And, what REALLY turned my head was the new Royal Grand 3D in XL size. Warm, rich and also bright and cutting when needed. I was able to get mutiple dynamic levels and found it hugely inspiring. It didnt hurt that I was audtioning the Nord thru a pair of high end Focal nearfield monitors, either!

 

 

Interesting Jim. I played the NP3 a couple of times and while I felt a definite improvement over the NP2 - which I owned for a few years - I didn't feel it approached the CP4's action, regarding ease and fluidity of my playing. Has the NP4 been tweaked so it plays better then the NP3 ?

 

Color me very curious about the Royal Grand, especially for Jazz. But I don't need yet need another DP for the little I'm using them on gigs these days.

 

Jim, I hope you get a good one that doesn't exhibit the clacking key noises that plagued the NP3. Perhaps by now they've rectified that issue. In any case good luck with it.

 

Dave, my understanding is Nord fixed the clacking key noises earlier this year-I dont know from exacly which serial number, however.....

 

Nord says it has improved the action in its promo literature and I would deem it correct from my audition!

 

Yeah, I was REALLY surprised I would like the NP4 as much as I did!

 

I had EXACTLY the same feeling playing the NP3 as you did, so I didnt have Nord in consideration until I actually tried the NP4!

 

Those Focal Nearfields helped a LOT, i am sure (at $2800 a piece, they had better !!)