Digidesign discontinues updates for 001

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Geoff:

quote:

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Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

Before the 001 we didn't have ANY of these options except the full-blown TDM system, which was affordable to only the few.

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Eric, I think you may have forgotten about Digidesign's NuBus Session 8 (which evolved into Pro Tools Project).

Geoff,

 

I didn't forget about NuBus Session 8, I simply didn't know it ever existed.

 

quote:

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Posted at Toronto AES, May 1994:

Session 8:

Digidesign's Multi-channel Digital Audio Production System used mainly in music production. Described as being the first affordable "studio in a box", this system offers on-board parametric EQ and stereo panning. Tracks can be grouped like a traditional consol, and editing or cutting and pasting can be performed referenced to a specific track or free form. MIDI integration is available by plugging into an external box.

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While not native systems, Session 8 and Pro Tools Project were low-end relatively inexpensive offerings from Digidesign.

I purchased one in April 1994 and used it until May 2000, when I replaced it with a Digi 001.

Best,

Geoff

1994 - that explains it. I was still recording to analog tape in those days.

 

It wasn't until the late 90's when I produced my first recordings on a DAW, in Digital Performer (not my gear).

 

I didn't know much if anything about Pro Tools until I joined these forums in 2000-2001, and noticed everybody bitching and screaming about this "evil" thing called Pro Tools. I thought to myself, "I've got to check this thing out...if everybody's so incensed by it, I'll probably LOVE it."

 

And I do! BUT..check this out, THIS is funny...

 

WAAAYYYY back in the early 80's, I had a drum machine called the Emu Systems Drumulator, and a friend (a drummer in fact) turned me on to these modification chips you could buy to replace the stock sounds in the machine...

 

...and who was making these chips??

 

The same guys who went on to found DigiDesign, and create Pro Tools.

 

 

Small world, filled with delicious ironies.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Henchman:

basically all an 001 is is one big key protection unit. It's an I/O box, not a dedicated processing unit. Basically all digi is really doing, is removing the code that enables the software to recognize the big "key"

Henchie,

 

That's a really oversimplistic way of interpreting how the system is designed to work.

 

The 001 PCI card and it's accompanying breakout box are not interchangable, but that dedicated hardware system is what makes the system so stable. You can take it or leave it, but some of us like it.

 

So when the next cool features become available, you'lll have to buy a new interface, and throw the old one out, as it will be worthless. Oh, and Mac users get to buy a whole new computer on top of it.

That is yet another vast oversimplification.

 

I don't know about you, but I actually use a 001 system, and it functions amazingly well. I don't anticipate the need to ever "throw it out," on the contrary. It will never be "worthless" so long as it is being put to use, and it will be, even after I get a 002R/G5 system.

 

I'll simply have a 2-room studio at that point, with the 002R/G5 system as Studio One, and the 001/G3 in Studio Two.

 

And I'll then hire a second engineer, and we can work on sessions interchangably between the two systems.

 

Once we get enough $$$ coming in, we add the HD/Accel system, and hire a 3rd engineer. And once again, ALL the sessions are cross-platform compatible with all three systems.

 

You see, Henchie? You are looking at this all wrong. Try to look at it as "in addition to" rather than "instead of." You are seeing limitation, where I am seeing flexibility.

 

That's the beauty of PT. You can "get" it, or choose not to.

[Salyphus]

Curve and Henchie are both right I would say.

 

It's true that it should be a simple matter for Digi to continue support for the 001, they are obviously trying to force people to upgrade. I guess it isn't enough $$$ to them just to charge for the latest version of ProTools. There's no reason they couldn't release a new PCI card, which is exactly what MOTU did. (though I am still waiting for one since January, but that's another story...)

 

Curve is also correct that there are ways to take a bad situation and make something positive out of it. And Digi has every right to do this, if they think it is a good business decision.

 

For myself, I will definitely consider this when evaluating Digi products in the future.

[Geoff Grace]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

I didn't forget about NuBus Session 8, I simply didn't know it ever existed.

Ah, well since I'm making an introduction, I should probably add a little more info about Session 8. Not only was it Digidesign's first low-end multi-channel DAW, I also believe it was also the first time that Digidesign released a product on PC. In fact, Session 8 was PC only until around the time I bought mine for the Mac. Also, while the original Session 8 hardware was a NuBus card and interface box, subsequent Session 8 hardware releases substituted newer PCI cards for the antiquated NuBus cards.

 

The Session 8 software bore little resemblance to the Pro Tools software of the time; and within a year or two, Digidesign decided to stop developing Session 8, offering users upgrades to a new low-end software dubbed "Pro Tools Project." This was the first stripped-down software version of Pro Tools and the precursor of Pro Tools LE and Pro Tools Free.

 

It's funny, one of my first memories of the old America Online version of Craig's SSS forum was of posters griping that Pro Tools Project wasn't as good in many ways as Session 8 had been...

 

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

check this out, THIS is funny...

 

WAAAYYYY back in the early 80's, I had a drum machine called the Emu Systems Drumulator, and a friend (a drummer in fact) turned me on to these modification chips you could buy to replace the stock sounds in the machine...

 

...and who was making these chips??

 

The same guys who went on to found DigiDesign, and create Pro Tools.

Eric, it's a small world, isn't it? Thanks for sharing that.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[Alndln]

Originally posted by mikegrijak:

If I may ask, how many simultaneous channels are we talking about in your case, and at what resolution and bit depth?

In my particular case not much but the 5+ms is a bit too high for me.It's when your try to use FW in live situations like 16+ in at 24 96 that things break down.Forget about live input of plugs with a Powercore on the same bus or higher resolutions or a HD on the same bus,but no problem with PCI.In fact most manufacturers plainly state the limnitations at different resolutions.My point with FW is,it's fine for most situations like an 002 or similar setup but it's not the solution for heavy duty pro use.If FW was such a great technology with no bottlenecks Digi would have moved their HD systems there long ago before the 002.I look at FW as a nice temporary solution.Again,for heavy duty use,we need a better solution.

[Henchman]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

That's a really oversimplistic way of interpreting how the system is designed to work.

[/QB]

Really?

Well other software manufacturers can get their sofwtare to work numerous type of interfaces running on MAc's as well as the numerous types of motherboards and configurations for PC's.

Yet Digi can't find a way to get their software to work on their own dedicated hardware? BS. They have obviously decided to drop the 001 so you HAVE to buy a new interface to get the newer future software updates.

 

It's the only way to get more money in. Because why else would you buy a different interface, when the samplerate and bitdepth is still the same. As long as that doesn't change, then there's no reason to upgrade what you've got. So they drop older interfaces, not becasue they HAVE to. But becasue they want to.

[Geoff Grace]

Henchman, I think you made a good point.

 

However, it should be noted that the top sample rates on the Digi 002 and HD systems are higher than the top sample rates on the Digi 001 and MIX systems.

 

At the same time, it should probably also be noted that, as of yet, few people seem to desire to record at those high sample rates.

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[nursers]

Just to repeat a little - my understanding is that the G5 units have a totally different PCI setup or something where the voltage is different, making the Digi 001 redundant on that platform. Although you would think the possibility exists to create some sort of 'adapter' to sort the issue.

[Alndln]

Originally posted by nursers:

- my understanding is that the G5 units have a totally different PCI setup or something where the voltage is different.

64 bit PCi-X slots.RME and M-Audio's cards are already compatible and I think Motu as well,in fact I think M-Audio offered some sort of trade in at some point.

[Henchman]

Originally posted by nursers:

Just to repeat a little - my understanding is that the G5 units have a totally different PCI setup or something where the voltage is different, making the Digi 001 redundant on that platform.

As I satedt before. What about those using PC's?

[Alndln]

Some new Athlon 64 boards have 64 bit Pci-X slots as well (Tyan Boards),but also include one 32 bit legacy slot as well.Most 64 bit compatible PCi-X cards are also 32 bit backwards compatible(RME,ect.).

[Salyphus]

The slots are PCI-X compatible, but PCI-X is not a requirement. In fact, as far as I know no PCI-X audio solutions are available yet. The voltage difference is what makes the cards incompatible.

 

As I mentioned above, there is no technical reason they can't offer a trade-in program for a new PCI card, as their competition has done. This is a conscious decision on their part.

[Rail Jon Rogut]

They do offer a trade in from the 001 to 002.

 

Rail

[Salyphus]

Originally posted by Rail Jon Rogut:

They do offer a trade in from the 001 to 002.

 

Rail

That's not the type of 'trade' I am talking about.

 

Was I unclear or are you just being a smartass?

[nursers]

Originally posted by Henchman:

Originally posted by nursers:

Just to repeat a little - my understanding is that the G5 units have a totally different PCI setup or something where the voltage is different, making the Digi 001 redundant on that platform.

As I satedt before. What about those using PC's?

Didnt realise Digi meant PC versions as well. Then they DO suck.

[where02190]

Originally posted by Rail Jon Rogut:

They do offer a trade in from the 001 to 002.

 

Rail

It's not a trade, you give them $700(the cost of the 001 basically) and you get the 002R. What do you actually get? Better converters, but most of us have upgraded our converters to outboard that are better than even the 002R's already, 2 more mic pre's that have no pad and are too hot to handle alot of high end mics, with phantom power switching on the back of a rack mount unit....what were they smoking when they thought that was a good design huh? Oh lets not forget the +4/-10 switches also on the back.......oh and OSX only, so lets dump another $130 on a new operating system and learn it......

[where02190]

sorry, double post.

[KenElevenShadows]

Any time people say, "Oh, yeah, you just upgrade from Digi001 to Digi002!" you have to think, "Do you just feel that I am made of money and have nothing better to do than go and reconfigure my computer by purchasing and learning another OS, switching everything over, dropping another $700-800 on something that offers no appreciable upgrade (I, like many other people, bypass the converters and use outboard mic preamps because Digi's converters and preamps totally blow), etc.? That's not even an upgrade, after all that's said and done. I would have just blown $800-900 and a wasted a bunch of my time to get absolutely nowhere. No, customer support, customer service is customer service, and should not involve a NON-upgrade. I completely agree with Where's position on this.

[Dasher]

How long should a company have to continue to support a product with new software versions?

 

Answer: until it's bug free and works 100% of the time on a given (and published) hardware platform.

 

A friend of mine who is well known in the business bought the 001, and spent many hours with tech support trying to get it t work - after having consulted them for recommendations for the hardware in the first place.

 

At first, he got pretty good response, but as the weeks went by, and they continued to give him instructions which he followed to the letter, he finally got sick of trying and went to logic on the Mac... Very unhappy, because he wanted to take his projects to LA for mixing/mastering at top-quality pro rooms.

 

I also agree with Where, except I saw the writing on the wall way back when they released an 'upgrade' for Sound Designer II for the Akai S900: the original package sold for $700, the upgrade was $400, plus you needed a $2495 hardware interface, and oh, yeah, it won't run on your computer - a new Power Mac is a requirement - $6K for an upgrade to a $700 package. At that time the head honcho was Peter Gotcher - I managed to get him on the phone (we were vague acquaintances) and I told him, "Peter Gotcher, you got me - but you'll NEVER do it again."

 

The only ProTools software I will run is PT Free, and that only to configure my DP files for transfer to a PC-based PT system, which I occasionally have needed to do.

 

But for those who appreciate paying twice as much for TDM plugs, and outrageous prices to be 'pro-compatible', go for it...

 

Dasher

[Valkyrie Sound]

OK.....

 

If anyone is interested in selling their 001... I may be interested...

 

Valky

[Rim]

I'm still running PTLE 5.3.1 w/001 on a PC. I was considering upgrading to 6 and then getting the VST-RTAS wrapper but I won't now. It doesn't make sense to throw more money into it since it's EOL. I'll still use it for as long as I can and I still like PT in general. There are some things that irked me about PT (especially the S/PDIF bug that blew away my PT install) which I don't know is fixed in 6. I also don't like the fact VST and DX are not supported (not directly anyway).

 

Anyway, it seems to me there are a lot of good choices in hardware and software available. I haven't started looking at pricing but it seems I could get a good interface and software for $700. And if the software is compatible with DX, I may not lose the investment I made in Waves Gold Bundle.

 

I do underastand that products will eventually become unsupported, especially in the computer industry. It is a shame, though, that Digidesign is not making a better upgrade pricing of 001 users to 002R. It doesn't seem to be to be a good way of promoting brand loyalty. A simple business fact is that it takes more money to get a new customer than it is to keep a current customer. Unless things change, it seems to me that Digidesign will eventually lose me as a customer. Not that I expect that to scare Digi, , but I wonder how many other people will view it the same way.

[where02190]

You've got more than the $700 upgrade fee to spend, you can still sell your 001 for a few bucks, giving you over a grand to spend, and there are many options of hardware/software combinations other than PTle to choose from that will give you better hardware and way less limiting software.

[Duhduh]

Originally posted by where02190:

You've got more than the $700 upgrade fee to spend, you can still sell your 001 for a few bucks, giving you over a grand to spend, and there are many options of hardware/software combinations other than PTle to choose from that will give you better hardware and way less limiting software.

Hmmm...You only get the $700 upgrade when your trade-in your old unit.

[Curve Dominant]

posted by Ken:

Any time people say, "Oh, yeah, you just upgrade from Digi001 to Digi002!" you have to think, "Do you just feel that I am made of money and have nothing better to do than go and reconfigure my computer by purchasing and learning another OS, switching everything over, dropping another $700-800 on something that offers no appreciable upgrade

Dude! C'mon. You need to re-think the hierarchy of your situation.

 

You don't NEED to upgrade as long as your system is working within your budget.

 

If/when your budget demands a bigger system, you will HAVE the budget to upgrade.

 

In other words: If you get accounts which demand something more than what your 001 will deliver, your accounts will pay for that.

 

In the meantime, your existing system will fill your needs. Not "wants" perhaps, but we all "want" what we don't have, and Digidesign is not a welfare agency.

 

(I, like many other people, bypass the converters and use outboard mic preamps because Digi's converters and preamps totally blow)

Ken,

 

Audiophilism is the last refuge of the artistically-challenged. I believe you are too good to paint yourself into that corner.

[where02190]

Originally posted by Duhduh Reinhardt:

Originally posted by where02190:

You've got more than the $700 upgrade fee to spend, you can still sell your 001 for a few bucks, giving you over a grand to spend, and there are many options of hardware/software combinations other than PTle to choose from that will give you better hardware and way less limiting software.

Hmmm...You only get the $700 upgrade when your trade-in your old unit.

Right, so if you take that $700 you were going to spend on the trade-in and add to it what you get selling your 001 ($300-400) you've now got over $1000 to spend for new software and hardware.

[KenElevenShadows]

Originally posted by Curve Dominant:

posted by Ken:

Any time people say, "Oh, yeah, you just upgrade from Digi001 to Digi002!" you have to think, "Do you just feel that I am made of money and have nothing better to do than go and reconfigure my computer by purchasing and learning another OS, switching everything over, dropping another $700-800 on something that offers no appreciable upgrade

Dude! C'mon. You need to re-think the hierarchy of your situation.

 

You don't NEED to upgrade as long as your system is working within your budget.

 

If/when your budget demands a bigger system, you will HAVE the budget to upgrade.

 

In other words: If you get accounts which demand something more than what your 001 will deliver, your accounts will pay for that.

 

In the meantime, your existing system will fill your needs. Not "wants" perhaps, but we all "want" what we don't have, and Digidesign is not a welfare agency.

 

(I, like many other people, bypass the converters and use outboard mic preamps because Digi's converters and preamps totally blow)

Ken,

 

Audiophilism is the last refuge of the artistically-challenged. I believe you are too good to paint yourself into that corner.

I'm not even sure how to respond to this post, Curve.

 

Regarding your first point, I *am* working within my budget. My "objections", or criticism, of Digidesign are lack of support for something that really is not very old and for that of people to say, "Well, just upgrade!!" That's not really the solution for everything, is it? My system is working fine - I'd just like to have continued upgrades and support for something that I spent money on for a new product only two years ago.

 

As far as your second point, I'm not sure what you mean. I think that the Digi001 converters and preamps really suck, so I'm bypassing them. Simple. I am not sure why this would be labeled "audiophilism" since I'm not being snobby or elitist - I just simply think that the converters and preamps suck. I am working within my budget constraints for this by purchasing the best converters and preamps that I can. Can't afford Prism or CraneSong. That's okay. I use what I have and don't make excuses. There's nothing "audiophile" about this attitude - I am constantly seeking the best way to capture the sonic quality of what I am recording and support the emotional and artistic quality of the song. Isn't that what you're trying to do?