NS3 Compact Keybed- Does it Ever Loosen Up?

[Electro Fan]

I took delivery of my new NS3 compact yesterday, actually arrived a day earlier than expected, but it may be heading back to Sweetwater. I am really having a difficult time with the keybed feeling way too springy. I know that is an issue for other KC members who rejected the compact for this reason, so I am not surprised, but as I had owned an Electro 2 and Sk2, both with springy feeling keyboards, I thought it I would be more comfortable with it. My hands actually feel fatigued after some time auditoning the sounds. Does it ever loosen up with use. I remember Scott saying he changed out the springs on his Kurzweil Artis, so is the possible with NS3?

 

Some other things that may influence my decision to stick SKB the Kronos 61:

1. Unlike the Kronos, the NS3 doesn't seem to have the option of using a single control pedal to do volume on all non organ sounds and swell on the organ. Am I missing this?

 

2. Kind of underwhelmed with presets in the NS3. I am not a big programmer, so I know that it probably has the raw material, but hard to find basic pads, strings, flutes that work for me.

 

3. Not a fan of the Wurly samples. Too short and too much attack. I know you mentioned trying to tweak to match a Wurly you liked, but I think the Wurly sounds in my Casio are more musical too me.

 

4. I like the Pianos, even though I would agree the Kronos pianos are based on more extensive sampling. I would much rather use the Kronos keybed to play AP then the NS3.

 

5. Overall, I think my Kronos sound set is more varied and impressive. I seem to be able to find almost anything I would need, and if not can usually tweak something to work. The NS3 may take more of starting with a raw sample and building from scratch.

 

6. Love the lack of menu diving and abundance of knobs. The light weight and small footprint is also a huge factor, but not sure the 5 lb difference between the Kronos 61 and NS3 is enough of a selling point.

 

So, what am I missing? Wish I could use it with the band at rehearsal, but can't risk damage carting it around if I am going to send it back.

 

[Delaware Dave]

* I am really having a difficult time with the keybed feeling way too springy.

* Overall, I think my Kronos sound set is more varied and impressive.

* not sure the 5 lb difference between the Kronos 61 and NS3 is enough of a selling point

* So, what am I missing?

Sounds like the only thing that you are missing is 12 keys (one additional octave). In everything that you wrote you never mentioned that the extra 12 keys were an advantage so it doesn't sound like they are and I would say there is no real reason to keep the keyboard based on what you wrote.

 

Now you are going to get a bunch of people who will chime in with a whole bunch of reasons you haven't mentioned..... and the only thing that I would say is that these reasons are their reasons, not yours. Based on what YOU wrote and YOUR reasons I'd return the keyboard.

[AnotherScott]

I remember Scott saying he changed out the springs on his Kurzweil Artis, so is the possible with NS3?

Al Quinn changed the springs on his Nord. I have a set of what he used, but I haven't had a chance to install them on my Nord yet. I agree with you (and many others) that the Nords are sprung too tightly. I don't find it unplayable (I have been gigging with it), but I'd definitely like to try lightening it. It certainly made a very nice difference on my Kurz.

 

As for your basic question, I think the feel of the keys don't generally change much over time. For one thing, if they did, since you tend to play more at the center than at the edges, I'd think you'd notice the center feeling different from the edges on a board that you've been playing for years, and that doesn't seem to happen.

 

1. Unlike the Kronos, the NS3 doesn't seem to have the option of using a single control pedal to do volume on all non organ sounds and swell on the organ. Am I missing this?

I think you can do that with the Control pedal. Set it for "Ctrl + Swell" and then it will do organ swell plus whatever you set the Morphs to, which can be volume. But the morph functions ae program-specific, not global. As it sound like you've discovered, if you instead set the Swell pedal to be global volume, it will no longer function as Swell for the organ, just volume. You also might consider leaving the swell dedicated to organ swell, and putting a regular inline volume pedal on the Nord's main outs, for a global volume control, leaving the Nord's Control pedal available for individual program morphs (volumes on just single sounds, various kinds of modulations, whatever),

 

2. Kind of underwhelmed with presets in the NS3. I am not a big programmer, so I know that it probably has the raw material, but hard to find basic pads, strings, flutes that work for me.

NS3 sonic strengths are pianos, organs, and VA synth. Strings, brass, winds, etc. are generally usable, but not as good as what you can find elsewhere. They are limited to basically simple sample playback, without velocity switching or some of the other tricks that more advanced rompler designs can do.

 

3. Not a fan of the Wurly samples. Too short and too much attack. I know you mentioned trying to tweak to match a Wurly you liked, but I think the Wurly sounds in my Casio are more musical too me.

Nord EPs are okay, but not my favorites. Korg, Casio, Kurz all have some better ones, IMO. I've improved them with EQ and amp sim. Based on your critique, you might want to try some compression. Question: Are you mostly looking to use the Nord by itself, or in conjunction with the PX5S?

 

5. Overall, I think my Kronos sound set is more varied and impressive.

I agree, though I prefer piano/organ on Nord.

 

Love the lack of menu diving and abundance of knobs. The light weight and small footprint is also a huge factor, but not sure the 5 lb difference between the Kronos 61 and NS3 is enough of a selling point.

Part of it is how much you need the extra keys. If you can get by fine with 61, it may be a tougher call than if you really need at least 73, in which case the Kronos (73 weighted or LS 88 semiweighted) are much heavier. There are not many 73+ key boards with aftertouch under 30 lbs. I think the Nord and Numa Compacts may be all there are!

 

Other than the weight, and the quality of the piano and organ sounds in particular, the main draw of the Nord is in the control surface. If you like to program or extensively customize your sounds, Nord is much faster and easier than Kronos, within the limits of what it can do, which covers an awful lot of what people generally need. If you prefer to mostly use factory presets with maybe a minor simple tweak here and there, then those Nord advantages may not matter to you. Similarly, Nord is better for mixing and matching sounds on the fly and manipulating them during performance, but lots of people prefer to set up whatever they need in advance and just leave things that way. If you're someone who mostly sticks with factory presets with just minor tweaks and/or sets up everything advance with minimal live manipulation, and if 61 keys is enough, Kronos 61 could easily be the better choice, especially if you're happy enough with its piano and organ.

 

I have a Kronos, and I like it, but it is one of the boards I use the least. In part because its operational strength is in calling up stuff you've set up in advance, and I tend to not set up tons of stuff in advance. It's also kind of heavy to bring around for something with only 61 keys. And the long boot is a nuisance. And the screen is finicky to operate and hard to read. And for the most part, none of the knobs and sliders do what you want until you program them to do what you want. And the black-on-black design is irritating under sub-optimum lighting conditions. But on the plus side, as you kind of said, whatever sound you are looking for, odds are you can get close on a Kronos. And it is one of the few boards I have with aftertouch. Short version: If you put the time in, you can probably get the Kronos to do anything you want. But I'm lazy about putting the time in, so other boards generally work better for me.

[gg22]

The action will not loosen up - but if you give it a few days you will adjust to it. It's definitely not as stiff as Artis 7 or even Roland VR-730. I don't know where some manufacturers got the idea that heavily sprung action is better for piano playing.

You can also set velocity curve to 1 or 2 for piano - makes it much more playable.

[Electro Fan]

* I am really having a difficult time with the keybed feeling way too springy.

* Overall, I think my Kronos sound set is more varied and impressive.

* not sure the 5 lb difference between the Kronos 61 and NS3 is enough of a selling point

* So, what am I missing?

Sounds like the only thing that you are missing is 12 keys (one additional octave). In everything that you wrote you never mentioned that the extra 12 keys were an advantage so it doesn't sound like they are and I would say there is no real reason to keep the keyboard based on what you wrote.

 

Now you are going to get a bunch of people who will chime in with a whole bunch of reasons you haven't mentioned..... and the only thing that I would say is that these reasons are their reasons, not yours. Based on what YOU wrote and YOUR reasons I'd return the keyboard.

 

Dave, thanks for your thoughts. I originally sent this message to a forum member who suggested I post this on the forum. As I had already shared some other info previously with this member, I failed to rewrite all my needs in this post. I apologize for not being clear. The extra keys are actually one of the reasons that I was looking to replace my Kronos with the NS3. Ive been motivated of late to streamline the rig. A one board option, with 73 or more keys, decent pianos and organs, some basic pads and strings, and was lightweight, made the NS3 a prime candidate, but the keybed in particular has made me have second thoughts.

 

Scott, your thoughts about the Kronos express all the reasons why I have found it difficult to bond with the instrument. I am much more a player who wants to focus on playing and not creating or mapping out elaborate splits and layers in advance. I do not use many of the features of a workstation, but it is hard to find the variety and quality of the sounds in one keyboard under 30 lbs.

[AnotherScott]

The extra keys are actually one of the reasons that I was looking to replace my Kronos with the NS3. Ive been motivated of late to streamline the rig. A one board option, with 73 or more keys, decent pianos and organs, some basic pads and strings, and was lightweight, made the NS3 a prime candidate, but the keybed in particular has made me have second thoughts.

This brings me back to the thread at https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2939701/If_you_must_gig_with_just_one_#Post2939701

 

As a single board, Kurzweil Artis 7 is better than NS3 in some ways, weaker in others... but without the aftermarket springs (which syntaur seems to be perpetually out of stock on), I suspect you may find the action as problematic as the Nord's.

 

Roland VR730 is a bit weak on splits and patch recall, and based on the post above, is even more tightly sprung than the Nord.

 

Roland FA-07 lacks real-time drawbar control, and its keys require a lot more force in the rear portions than the front, which I find bothersome for piano playing. On the plus side, you can send the organ out a separate output and run it through a Vent. On the minus side, it kinda needs a Vent. ;-)

 

If you don't needs splits or many saved presets, Vox Continental 73 could be a contender.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Electro Fan]

The Vox Continental is an interesting option. Not having any options to split might be an issue, much like it used to be in the past for the Nord Electro. The keybed, lightweight, and basic sounds would certainly be adequate in most situations. I looked at the users manual and it does't seem like you can send one sound to the 1/4' outs and another to the XLR outs. It would have bbeen useful to send the CX3 sounds to my Vent. I suppose another option might be the Hammond SK73 or 88, but I was never entirely sold on the extra sounds in my SK2. Is the keybed different in the SK88 model?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[AnotherScott]

TIs the keybed different in the SK88 model?

Yes. I've never had the opportunity to try it, though.

[HSS]

Interesting and very relevant thread for what I'm experiencing with my recently purchased NE5D 73 which I believe has the same tightly-sprung action as the NS3 Compact. I keep trying to makes the NE5D work for me as a one board solution but the tightly sprung action make any effort at AP playing difficult for me, both in terms of being fatiguing and precise articulation for solos. I find that it's action for B3, clav, and EP works for me but AP is challenging to say the least, even when I experiment with the four touch settings. As the OP indicated, I'm still hopeful that the NE5D's springs will loosen up but that hope is fading after 4 - 5 months.

 

There are numerous SW boards I've played through the years that I'm actually quite comfortable with the action for AP (e.g. Kurz SP4-7, Kurz SP76, Numa Compact, Alesis QS6/7,etc.) so for me with the NE5D it's not a function of weighted vs. SW keys. As a result, I'm back to taking two boards to gigs, a Hammond SK1 or NE5D paired with either a Kurz SP4-7 or occasionally a PX330 or RD300GX (if the stage is big enough). FWIW I actually like the Kurz SP4-7's SW action for AP and EP, not so much for organ.

 

Unless I decide to take the chance to change the springs in my NE5D 73 as others have done, I may be unloading it at some point in the near future. Although at 20 pounds, 42" long, splitting capability, and 73 keys with really good AP/ EP/ B3/ clav sounds this is very hard to do.

 

[AnotherScott]

There are numerous SW boards I've played through the years that I'm actually quite comfortable with the action for AP (e.g. Kurz SP4-7, Kurz SP76, Numa Compact, Alesis QS 6/7, etc.) so for me with the NE5D it's not a function of weighted vs. non-weighted keys.

I agree, SP4-7 and Numa Compact both have better actions than Nord's SW (except for some SP4s with sharp edges that make it bad for organ, but apparently even then, people have successfully filed them down). I haven't played the others.

 

As a result, I'm back to taking two boards to gigs, a Hammond SK1 paired with either a Kurz SP4-7 or occasionally a PX330 or RD300GX (if the stage is big enough).

The SK1 uses the same basic Fatar action as the Nord, the springs should be interchangeable. So if you want the Hammond action on the Nord (at least for 61 of the keys, if that's the size of your Hammond), if you can figure out how to open both of them up, you can swap the springs between the two and have your preferred action on your preferred board, even if essentially as a proof of concept, so you can try it in advance of tracking down and buying new springs. Assuming you're happy with it, you can get alternate springs in the future so you can have springs you like in both boards. BTW, the springs in the Numa Organ 2 (same Fatar action) are even lighter feeling than those in the SK1. (The original Numa Organ springs seem to be the same as SK1.)

[HSS]

Thanks for the tips / recommendations.

 

I've considered spending about $100 to buy a looser set of springs for my ND5D 73 from Syntaur per Al Quinn's recommendation. I've also thought about experimenting and swapping springs out between my boards or perhaps even purchasing an old Kurz SP76, whose SW action I really liked, for just its springs.

 

My concern about changing springs is that, to say the least, I'm mechanically challenged (my wife could elaborate).

[Al Quinn]

If youre mechanically challenged perhaps you can get a friend whose handy to help out. There is a risk of damaging a ribbon cable if youre not careful.

[Electro Fan]

I think I will probably end up sending the Stage 3 back. It is too bad as the pianos and organ were more to my liking than the Kronos, and hands on aspects are pretty intuitive and appealing, but I just dont think I can warm up to the keybed feel. I find that my technique, although not that great to begin with, really suffers. My hands feel fatigued after a short time playing, and even I find the organ parts not to be as easily rendered as I would wish. I may decide to just keep the Kronos/Px-5s Rig, or maybe go in another direction built around the Mojo 61 and the Px/5s or SP6. Not sure any other one board rig is going to work.

[Bif_]

Let Basil Mcjagger have a go at it.

 

clonk

[bennyray]

I think I will probably end up sending the Stage 3 back. It is too bad as the pianos and organ were more to my liking than the Kronos, and hands on aspects are pretty intuitive and appealing, but I just dont think I can warm up to the keybed feel. I find that my technique, although not that great to begin with, really suffers. My hands feel fatigued after a short time playing, and even I find the organ parts not to be as easily rendered as I would wish. I may decide to just keep the Kronos/Px-5s Rig, or maybe go in another direction built around the Mojo 61 and the Px/5s or SP6. Not sure any other one board rig is going to work.

 

I went thru the same scenario a few months back and went with the RD-2000 and a Mojo 61. I like the Nord pianos and organ is ok not as good as MOJO IMO. An all in 1 board would never work for me unless I was in maybe a blues band. I still have my Kronos 2 88 and have contemplated selling it but the Eps. and synth patches that I have are really strong. Seems like I see more Kronos around now than ever before.

 

[Electro Fan]

I am curiois if NS3C users are experiencing issues with the pianos sounding bad due the velocity curves in the NS3. It seems from threads on the Nord Stage Forum, that many say that the pianos sound terrible as compared to the same pianos in the Stage 2/2EX. This doesnt seem to be just about SW keybed, but even being controlled from a weighted board. I have no experience with the previous stage, but my thoughts were that it was merely adapting to the compact keybed and not the internal curves. It was my understanding that others reported that the curves were improved from previous versions, but maybe that is not accurate.

[ewall08530]

I am curiois if NS3C users are experiencing issues with the pianos sounding bad due the velocity curves in the NS3. It seems from threads on the Nord Stage Forum, that many say that the pianos sound terrible as compared to the same pianos in the Stage 2/2EX. This doesnt seem to be just about SW keybed, but even being controlled from a weighted board. I have no experience with the previous stage, but my thoughts were that it was merely adapting to the compact keybed and not the internal curves. It was my understanding that others reported that the curves were improved from previous versions, but maybe that is not accurate.

 

I've upgraded to a Stage 3 Compact after gigging for 7 years with an Electro 3 61 and a Stage 2 76 with the original Vent on both organ sections.

 

I have more pianos and they are the larger samples in the Stage 3. I frankly don't understand how anyone could say they sound terrible compared to the Stage 2/2EX.

Additionally the soft release and choice of velocity curves are features that I didn't have before and I have no problem playing most piano parts on the compact.

And the Leslie sim on the Stage 3 is not quite the equal of of the Ventilator but it's close enough that I've not missed it and felt the need for adding it.

My Stage 2 organ without the Vent was a joke and I never gigged without it.

[analogika]

I am curiois if NS3C users are experiencing issues with the pianos sounding bad due the velocity curves in the NS3. It seems from threads on the Nord Stage Forum, that many say that the pianos sound terrible as compared to the same pianos in the Stage 2/2EX. This doesnt seem to be just about SW keybed, but even being controlled from a weighted board. I have no experience with the previous stage, but my thoughts were that it was merely adapting to the compact keybed and not the internal curves. It was my understanding that others reported that the curves were improved from previous versions, but maybe that is not accurate.

A small number (I think three?) of unhappy people took every chance they could, however inappropriate, to vent about how horrible they found their Stage 3.

 

As with most things these days, the amplified minority dominated discussion for a while. The vast majority, it would seem, arent complaining.

 

I, for one, am MUCH happier with the Stage 3 Compact than the Stage 2 compact specifically for pianos. The response seems much more playable, and the pianos seem brighter (as does the rest of the board).

 

I had the Stage 2 Compact and Stage 3 Compact set up side-by-side for several weeks as I tried to match the two up for essential patches (or indeed improve considerably over the Stage 2 in some cases).

 

The whole machine has a bit of that high-end sheen to it that makes Yamaha keyboards, for example, always sound classy.

[Electro Fan]

I am curiois if NS3C users are experiencing issues with the pianos sounding bad due the velocity curves in the NS3. It seems from threads on the Nord Stage Forum, that many say that the pianos sound terrible as compared to the same pianos in the Stage 2/2EX. This doesnt seem to be just about SW keybed, but even being controlled from a weighted board. I have no experience with the previous stage, but my thoughts were that it was merely adapting to the compact keybed and not the internal curves. It was my understanding that others reported that the curves were improved from previous versions, but maybe that is not accurate.

 

I've upgraded to a Stage 3 Compact after gigging for 7 years with an Electro 3 61 and a Stage 2 76 with the original Vent on both organ sections.

 

I have more pianos and they are the larger samples in the Stage 3. I frankly don't understand how anyone could say they sound terrible compared to the Stage 2/2EX.

Additionally the soft release and choice of velocity curves are features that I didn't have before and I have no problem playing most piano parts on the compact.

And the Leslie sim on the Stage 3 is not quite the equal of of the Ventilator but it's close enough that I've not missed it and felt the need for adding it.

My Stage 2 organ without the Vent was a joke and I never gigged without it.

I am curiois if NS3C users are experiencing issues with the pianos sounding bad due the velocity curves in the NS3. It seems from threads on the Nord Stage Forum, that many say that the pianos sound terrible as compared to the same pianos in the Stage 2/2EX. This doesnt seem to be just about SW keybed, but even being controlled from a weighted board. I have no experience with the previous stage, but my thoughts were that it was merely adapting to the compact keybed and not the internal curves. It was my understanding that others reported that the curves were improved from previous versions, but maybe that is not accurate.

A small number (I think three?) of unhappy people took every chance they could, however inappropriate, to vent about how horrible they found their Stage 3.

 

As with most things these days, the amplified minority dominated discussion for a while. The vast majority, it would seem, arent complaining.

 

I, for one, am MUCH happier with the Stage 3 Compact than the Stage 2 compact specifically for pianos. The response seems much more playable, and the pianos seem brighter (as does the rest of the board).

 

 

 

I had the Stage 2 Compact and Stage 3 Compact set up side-by-side for several weeks as I tried to match the two up for essential patches (or indeed improve considerably over the Stage 2 in some cases).

 

The whole machine has a bit of that high-end sheen to it that makes Yamaha keyboards, for example, always sound classy.

 

 

Thanks for everyones feedback. I think I bought into the LOUD minority on the Nord Forum with regards to the velocity curve of the NS3. Prior to investigating those threads, I believed that the curves and overall sound of the NS3 was by consensus found the pianos to play more responsively in the NS3. Thanks for confirming my understanding.

[AnotherScott]

I also find the pianos to be dynamically more playable on the NS3 Compact than I did on the NS2 Compact. On the NS2, I wouldn't play the Nord pianos unless I was driving them from another board; on the NS3, I do. I haven't tried driving the NS3 from another board yet. But the NE5D pianos worked for me whether playing them from it's own action or over MIDI from a weighted 88.

[Guven Ilter]

I am curiois if NS3C users are experiencing issues with the pianos sounding bad due the velocity curves in the NS3. It seems from threads on the Nord Stage Forum, that many say that the pianos sound terrible as compared to the same pianos in the Stage 2/2EX. This doesnt seem to be just about SW keybed, but even being controlled from a weighted board. I have no experience with the previous stage, but my thoughts were that it was merely adapting to the compact keybed and not the internal curves. It was my understanding that others reported that the curves were improved from previous versions, but maybe that is not accurate.

 

I upgraded from a NE5D 61 to a NS 3 about a year ago, and never looked back, mainly for the electric piano. I use the Nefertiti Mark I sample, and tweaked around with the effects to get a 70s sound, a bit similar to a Richard Tee tone. The action for this tone is pefct for me, as it gives me full playability for funk and smooth jazzy tunes. I agree that it is a bit stiff for organs, comparing it to a Korg CX3, but if you dont want to lug another 40 lbs, at the age of 53 and after serious health problems, it works.

 

The main issue is the response of the sample to the velocity curve; I believe the trick is playing a lot with as many combinations possible, to find the satisfying match. Then the NS3 becomes the ideal stage keyboard.

 

At least that was what happened in my case.